# Soliton Juniors first scream!



## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Nice! particularly having the same features and software as the bigger brother... (which I have )


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

Yes I heard (George) say you guys were finalizing "JR". Please finish so you can start working on "BIG DADDY SOL" 



Qer said:


> Yep, it's official! Junior is alive and kicking!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Grattis! But you missed the most important details for a newborn: weight and size, and of course we need a photo


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Nice! particularly having the same features and software as the bigger brother... (which I have )


Well, I'm lazy. The amount of lines in the code to handle the differences is just maybe 10-20 or so out of 5000+ lines total. It's less work to simply let the controllers be as identical as possible, both for me and Tesseract.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Grattis! But you missed the most important details for a newborn: weight and size, and of course we need a photo


I know I have a shop print around here somewhere, but... as of now I don't remember any of the dimensions. Or the weight. I know it's smaller and lighter than the Soliton1... that probably wasn't too helpful, was it? 

Well, how about a pic of it connected to our dyno, instead?


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## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

Looks like _another _EVnetics work of art, Jeff ! Can't wait to get some!
Mike
www.EV-propulsion.com


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

"*Soliton Juniors first scream!"

*At 500 amps, isn't that more of a whimper? 

Looks good, thanks for the picture.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> Yes I heard (George) say you guys were finalizing "JR". Please finish so you can start working on "BIG DADDY SOL"


Three phase AC Soliton first!  Get back in line


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Well, how about a pic of it connected to our dyno, instead?


Awww, how cute. Congratulations on the new member of the family.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Three phase AC Soliton first!  Get back in line


{{{Nudges JRP3 out of line}}} Series DC technology and programming has already been developed, AC is a whole 'nother can of worms. Big Sol fans unite!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

toddshotrods said:


> {{{Nudges JRP3 out of line}}} Series DC technology and programming has already been developed, AC is a whole 'nother can of worms. Big Sol fans unite!


{{{Pushes back}}}Larger market for the AC than the Big Sol, and all he has to do is clone Jr. a few times  Qer might actually have to do some work on it of course


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> {{{Pushes back}}}Larger market for the AC than the Big Sol, and all he has to do is clone Jr. a few times  Qer might actually have to do some work on it of course


{{{Digs heels in, searching for ammo}}} Okay, so what AC is more logical from a business perspective - Big Sol is still cooler! 

I'm just having fun with JRP3 guys. Seriously, congrats on getting Jr out of the womb, and giving it a successful smack on the azz. Where's my cigar?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Qer might actually have to do some work on it of course


Now, there's 2010's biggest understatement.

Yep, an AC controller would mean pretty much building it all from scratch. We can't even keep the same CPU family since the math is so much more complicated so, yeah, it'd be *ahem* "some work on it"...


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Congrats guys. A kiss for the mom, and a firm hand for dad. Not sure who's who.


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## LithiumaniacsEVRacing (Oct 9, 2010)

*Big Sol is what I want for Christmas, come on! I have been a good boy lately!* 


toddshotrods said:


> {{{Nudges JRP3 out of line}}} Big Sol fans unite!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:


> *Big Sol is what I want for Christmas, come on! I have been a good boy lately!*


I would like peace on earth and more bikini babes.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> ...and more bikini babes.


Now that's what I call Christmas joy!  Fah-la-la-la-lahhhh... La-la-la-lahhhh!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Dimensions of Junior: 14.75" L x 7.75" W (not including terminal strips or cooling ports) x 5" H (including fans).

Weight? Dunno - still hooked up to the dyno for testing and we haven't made a cover for it so...

At this point the only thing we really need to optimize is the liquid cooling loop, and that's mainly because we went with a different IGBT module that has a different footprint so the cross-drilled passages are almost certainly not in the right place nor of the right diameter.

The enclosure might be slightly changed to accommodate a different type of aluminum stock (bar vs. plate? I dunno - not my forte) and, of course, will eventually be cast. So, the initial units will be billet aluminum, just like was done with the Soliton1.

Electrically, however, it seems to be performing exactly as expected so my part is pretty much over


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

when when when when and how much?


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)




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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Soliton Junior is the main contender for my dual motor Mini conversion, which will use two 7" motors in series. Thinking about motor safety, I'd like to be able to cut power if I have a driveline failure for either motor. Would that be possible using the single tachometer input on the Soliton, or do I need to devise a separate protection circuit?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Soliton Junior is the main contender for my dual motor Mini conversion, which will use two 7" motors in series. Thinking about motor safety, I'd like to be able to cut power if I have a driveline failure for either motor. Would that be possible using the single tachometer input on the Soliton, or do I need to devise a separate protection circuit?


Yep, you can connect the tachometer to both controllers at the same time - just connect the actual tach signal line, not the power supply lines, to the second controller. I've actually tested this setup recently and it works fine.

Now, about your setup... will the two motors be bolted together (ie - Siamese) or what?


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I'd like to drive both motors in series using a single controller. The motors will be mounted in the front subframe and drive the front wheels independently. Each motor will use chain drive to drive a sprocket on the inboard end of each drive shaft. So left motor drives left wheel, right motor drives right wheel. The controller will be the only connection between the two motors (edit: although physically they're also connected indirectly through the road surface...)


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I'd like to drive both motors in series using a single controller. The motors will be mounted in the front subframe and drive the front wheels independently. Each motor will use chain drive to drive a sprocket on the inboard end of each drive shaft. So left motor drives left wheel, right motor drives right wheel. The controller will be the only connection between the two motors (edit: although physically they're also connected indirectly through the road surface...)


Sorry, only one tachometer input on the Solitons so no, it can't keep track of both your motors. The tachometer input is very special since it has to handle (rather) high frequency signals that has to be properly filtered (both analogue and digital) to be useful. There's no chance the generic inputs can handle that I'm afraid.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Qer said:


> Sorry, only one tachometer input on the Solitons.


Thanks. I thought as much, but just wanted to get it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> Thanks. I thought as much, but just wanted to get it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak


No problem.










Satisfied?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Qer said:


> No problem...Satisfied?


Nice smile Qer, but you have a bit of plaque there. Time for a trip to the dentist? Looks like he did an awesome job on your braces, btw!


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Brought over here to avoid hijacking this thread:


Tesseract said:


> > Originally Posted by *EVfun*:
> > I thought the Jr was for motorcycles and go-carts.
> 
> 
> ...


I agree there is a market for a controller with a battery current limit around 500 amps, lots of people don't want to exceed 3C or 4C on their Lithium cells (and for me 6C is only 360 amps.) With a 500 amp motor current limit I see a controller that is, for practical purposes, limited to 95 HP. Most motors we are using are limited to about 170 volts max, driven by a controller with a 500 amp motor current limit. This will be good for small cars, but with some extra motor current capacity it would be good for small trucks too because you offer the voltage room to make more power. Something like an 80 cell Lithium pack set up to limit battery side to 480 amps (at 240 volts), while the motor side is limited to 720 amps (at 160 volts.) That would provide about 125 HP, more suitable for a 3500 lb. vehicle. I suspect that giving the Jr extra motor current potential would mostly cut into the sales of the 1. 

The Soliton Jr is more efficient at 500 amps and slightly less efficient at 100 amps (pretty typical when comparing MOSFET and IGBT controllers.) In overall efficiency (motor+controller) terms we are talking about 2% less for the Curtis at full tilt so it's only a concern from a heat standpoint. I don't believe there is any need for a 500 amp continuous rating in a 500 amp controller (or 1000 amp continuous in a 1000 amp controller.) It all has to do with the safe area under the thermal curve. Optima batteries are good for 100 amps for 20 minutes or 400 amps for about 4 minutes. 100 amp hour TS cells (fairly common choice for smaller vehicles) are good for 100 amps for an hour, 300 amps for 20 minutes, perhaps 400 amps for 10 minutes, 500 amps for 3 minutes, 600 amps for 1 minute. If the controllers thermal limit curve matches or betters the battery pack's current limits even more hang time under the curve means little. The controllers motor current thermal time limit curve can be matched against the chosen motor in the same way. The Curtis 1221 certainly falls short of the curve of a Prestolite motor and I suspect the 1231 does as well (though remember, we where talking about an EV with a 62 lb. motor.)

If I didn't already have a Zilla 1k in hand for the Buggy I would seriously consider a Soliton 1 for it. I don't see any reason I would want a Soliton Jr (except the price.) What is the continuous motor current and battery current limits of the Soliton 1 with only the built in air cooling? (I admit, it is still tempting because water cooling in a VW Beetle is almost sacrilege.)


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVfun said:


> ...With a 500 amp motor current limit I see a controller that is, for practical purposes, limited to 95 HP.


This is way too pessimistic. Of course maximum power depends on how much the battery pack sags, but with a 342V max input rating it is perfectly reaonable to expect 150kW continuous output from the Soliton Junior. Even if you allow for sag down to 280V instead of 300V that's still 140kW. 




EVfun said:


> Most motors we are using are limited to about 170 volts max,


No, some of the most popular "forklift" motors are limited to that voltage, but there are manufacturers like Kostov and D&D that make neutrally timed motors wound for higher voltages. These motors produce more torque per amp both because they have more turns, but also because of the neutral brush timing. 



EVfun said:


> I suspect that giving the Jr extra motor current potential would mostly cut into the sales of the 1.


The industrial IGBT modules I prefer to use only come in relatively course current ratings and it's simply not the case that I can make a, say, 700A controller with them for any less than the Soliton1.

That said, it would be pretty dumb for us to make two controllers with only a 30% difference in current rating. 




EVfun said:


> The Soliton Jr is more efficient at 500 amps and slightly less efficient at 100 amps (pretty typical when comparing MOSFET and IGBT controllers.) In overall efficiency (motor+controller) terms we are talking about 2% less for the Curtis at full tilt so it's only a concern from a heat standpoint.


Yep, but the biggest cause of "performance fade" is the controller overheating, so any improvement in its ability to shed heat pays big dividends in driveability, if not so much an improvement in range.




EVfun said:


> I don't believe there is any need for a 500 amp continuous rating in a 500 amp controller (or 1000 amp continuous in a 1000 amp controller.)


Unfortunately, when it comes to motor controllers anything longer than 30 seconds to 1 minute is more or less equivalent to continuous operation as far as the semiconductors are concerned. After 1 minute the heatsink has likely reached thermal equilibrium with ambient, so if the controller's specs show a further reduction in output at this point then it is almost assuredly due to the use of electrolytic input capacitors. 




EVfun said:


> If I didn't already have a Zilla 1k in hand for the Buggy I would seriously consider a Soliton 1 for it. I don't see any reason I would want a Soliton Jr (except the price.) What is the continuous motor current and battery current limits of the Soliton 1 with only the built in air cooling? (I admit, it is still tempting because water cooling in a VW Beetle is almost sacrilege.)


Sure, the Jr. isn't for everyone. It's mostly aimed at smaller vehicles, of course, but also at people who are more interesting having a reliable, sophisticated daily driver rather than a speed-demon. I'm certainly not going to try to convince you that 500A is just as good as 1000A (or that 1000A is just as good as 2000A, etc...)!

It's difficult to give a firm number for the continuous current rating of the Soliton1 on just air cooling alone as it depends on so many variables. I mean, is the ambient temp 100F or 50F? Is the controller mounted right over the motor? On it's side or with the fins facing up, or, worst of all, the fins pointing down? In general, though, the fans do a pretty good job of getting you back to 1000A after a minute or so, or maintaining a 500-600A continuous as long as the controller isn't mounted right on top of the motor (after all, the motor might be 85% efficient so it will shed a LOT more heat than the controller itself).


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

It is interesting to follow debate over Juniors numbers, as a user of 1. 
I would like to use Junior in future build, like ATV.For even a small car i am wondering if there really are alternatives for Soliton at this point. If you leave chinese and other cheapos out, is there a controller that ou can buy now and use in your vehicle knowing that controller will stand the time other components will?
Somehow i see this debate as theoretical unless you are on 23dollar budget and want to know why your shoebox is the right choice.
I feel so lucky to have been started my conversion just the moment Soliton1 hit the market.
Regards, Harri


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

EVfun said:


> Most motors we are using are limited to about 170 volts max,





Tesseract said:


> No, some of the most popular "forklift" motors are limited to that voltage, .


I guess that is my perspective. I see mostly ADC 8 and 9 inch motors and Impulse 9 and WarP 9 motors in EVs out there. Those are the forklift motors I had in mind when I estimated 170 motor volts, and 95 HP, as a realistic street max with the Jr. With the also quite common Prestolite MTC I would drop that down to only 140 volts max. With the ADC or WarP 9 perhaps a little more voltage. As a rough estimate for the max motor voltage you can count the exposed comm slots between 2 brushes. Rotate the motor a little to find the minimum number of exposed slots between 2 brushes and multiply by 20 to estimate max motor voltage (use the manufacturers specs if available.)



EVfun said:


> If I didn't already have a Zilla 1k in hand for the Buggy I would seriously consider a Soliton 1 for it...





Tesseract said:


> Sure, the Jr. isn't for everyone. It's mostly aimed at smaller vehicles, of course, but also at people who are more interesting having a reliable, sophisticated daily driver rather than a speed-demon. I'm certainly not going to try to convince you that 500A is just as good as 1000A (or that 1000A is just as good as 2000A, etc...)!
> 
> It's difficult to give a firm number for the continuous current rating of the Soliton1 on just air cooling alone as it depends on so many variables. I mean, is the ambient temp 100F or 50F? Is the controller mounted right over the motor? On it's side or with the fins facing up, or, worst of all, the fins pointing down? In general, though, the fans do a pretty good job of getting you back to 1000A after a minute or so, or maintaining a 500-600A continuous as long as the controller isn't mounted right on top of the motor (after all, the motor might be 85% efficient so it will shed a LOT more heat than the controller itself).


Well, my battery pack can put out 500 amps for just minutes before I flatten it (Optimas are not very big.) I just downloaded and read through the owners manual for the Soliton 1. I take it the main contactor is built in? (nice touch) I really appreciate the brake inhibit function. Does brake inhibit open the main contactor or open the main contactor if it detects current still flowing? 

There is absolutely nothing sophisticated about my buggy and everything I could delete I did delete. It's my 1400 lb. go-cart with license plates -- shake, rattle and roll. Since I have to try to overheat the 1221 it looks like the Soliton would handle the job with only air cooling. I know where the new controller will be going, it will be on the panel behind the back seat. So the fins would be sideways with the output terminals on the right. The Zilla would have all terminals to the right and a coolant reservoir on the left. In the time an Optima pack lasts the Prestolite will not have much heat to kick at it.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

glaurung said:


> It is interesting to follow debate over Juniors numbers, as a user of 1.
> I would like to use Junior in future build, like ATV.For even a small car i am wondering if there really are alternatives for Soliton at this point.


The only other choice I know about is the NetGain Controls WarP-Drive. Prices range from $2050 to $4300 with output levels ranging from 160 volts at 1000 amps to 360 volts at 1400 amps. The thing is, I don't know anyone using one and haven't heard any field reports on them.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Does brake inhibit open the main contactor or open the main contactor if it detects current still flowing?


The software can only engage the contactors once at start up and never again, after that it can only open them. The reason for that is two:



If the contactors are opened the controller HAS to do a precharge cycle before they can be closed again. The internal resistance in the capacitors is so low that the current rush would easily spike into three or four digit number already at a pretty low volts difference, so for example doing the old shoe box trick with an external contactor controlled by a breaker on the throttle would probably eat up your contactor pretty quick.
If any error is encountered the controller should be restarted to allow for internal diagnostics to run before allowing the power to be connected again. This makes me sleep better at night. 

Which reminds me; everyone owning a Soliton should make sure they're not running a a software older than 1.1. The 1.1 introduced a lot of features and some of those adds reliability by protecting the controller and your battery pack, but it also added a feature that will cut power if your throttle pedal breaks and for example goes full on...


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Is there a good thread to read up on the built in safety features of the Soliton line of controllers? In addition, is there a published list of error codes so a user can check any error they may get?

For example, there is quite a bit posted online about the safety features built into the Zilla controllers. One of those is shutting off the IGBTs several times a second for just one clock tick to make sure current does stop flowing and if current flows open the main contactor and record an error message. The error codes (either flashed or shown in a terminal program) are almost all listed in the owners manual (a couple are contact Cafe Electric.)

I'm guessing this is already here somewhere but the Soliton has rightly been discussed quite a bit here so I didn't find it on a quick search. Thanks!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

EVfun said:


> Is there a good thread to read up on the built in safety features of the Soliton line of controllers? In addition, is there a published list of error codes so a user can check any error they may get?


Note really - a lot has changed since I last edited the owner's manual so it is in need of a re-write, which I am doing now in between all the other things I do. Qer listed the error codes in the recent thread about software version 1.2 which I will reprint here:



0: Starting up (software initializing etc)
1: Precharge phase (precharge relay active)
2: Engaging contactors (the two contactors are activated sequentially to reduce the current surge)
3: Waiting for start signal (if that's enabled as an input)
4: Throttle not in zero position
5: Running
6-20: (not used)
21: Zero voltage after precharge (no pack voltage)
22: Pack voltage too low after precharge (pack voltage too low - check the setting for the minimum allowed)
23: Faulty throttle signal (either unconnected or short circuited)
24: 12 Volt too high (greater than 15V)
25: 12 Volt too low (below 10V)
26: Pack voltage too high (greater than 342V)
27: Pack voltage too low (10V under the minimum setting during operation - this is usually from a weak pack and/or too high a motor current slew rate, but also from bad connections and blown fuses)
28: Motor terminals short circuited (or your motor just went up in a plasma ball)
29: Out of memory (I hope to never see this in a log...)
30: Software error (ditto)
31: Controller shut down by user (in the web interface for a software upgrade or throttle calibration or from turning off ignition)




EVfun said:


> For example, there is quite a bit posted online about the safety features built into the Zilla controllers.


There isn't anywhere near the same amount of information publicly available about the Soliton1 yet, but that's mainly because the Zilla has a good 9-10 year head start on us. 

I have been compiling a FAQ section for the website, but the WIX interface or whatever it is sucks so bad we can't figure out how to make it work sensibly (not just be an endless list of questions and answers). We'll get there eventually, I'm sure, but web design is not anyone's forte at Evnetics.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> when when when when and how much?


Sorry I missed this... We are aiming for an introductory retail price of $1900. More than twice as much power as a Curtis 1231C and a huge difference in functionality for maybe $400 more seems like a bargain to me. That price is kind of a low price considering the cost of the components, so it will likely get raised by $100-$200 in the future. Just depends on demand and, of course, currency fluctuations (which greatly affects the price of the IGBT modules and aluminum enclosure).

As for when it will be available, we still need to optimize the liquid cooling passages (right now they are way too far away from the IGBT module to do much good, as we found out) but we think we've come up with a much better configuration and should be milling a new prototype enclosure this Monday. If all goes well with the dyno testing afterwards then Junior should be ready for sale in a couple of weeks.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Sorry I missed this... We are aiming for an introductory retail price of $1900. More than twice as much power as a Curtis 1231C and a huge difference in functionality for maybe $400 more seems like a bargain to me. That price is kind of a low price considering the cost of the components, so it will likely get raised by $100-$200 in the future. Just depends on demand and, of course, currency fluctuations (which greatly affects the price of the IGBT modules and aluminum enclosure).
> 
> As for when it will be available, we still need to optimize the liquid cooling passages (right now they are way too far away from the IGBT module to do much good, as we found out) but we think we've come up with a much better configuration and should be milling a new prototype enclosure this Monday. If all goes well with the dyno testing afterwards then Junior should be ready for sale in a couple of weeks.


That sounds fantastic! 

Now, for those of us who aren't electrical engineers, explain the "more than twice as much power as a Curtis 1231C" in simple terms, please. 

I know, I know.. never enough info for this crowd...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Max voltage time max amps. Curtis 144x500=72KW Jr. 342x500=171KW
Basic, not accounting for efficiency.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

so here's what I'm thinking based on _my_ understanding of the Solitons:

I won't need a contactor other than the controller.

I can idle the motor for PS and AC, therefore won't need a MR2 or similar PS pump.

I won't need a current shunt. 

I can use programmable outputs for my fuel gauge, temp gauge and check engine (for errors).

I will get a much higher continuous amp draw for better "up to speed" acceleration than a Curtis.

.. sounds like a deal to me.


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Max voltage time max amps. Curtis 144x500=72KW Jr. 342x500=171KW
> Basic, not accounting for efficiency.


ah.. gotcha.. wasn't thinking of the wider voltage range of the soliton.. I would not do a conversion over 144volts, so that wouldn't really apply to me (other than probably a better _continuous_ amp draw than Curtis.) Or does that mean I could get higher than 500 amp continuous at lower voltages?


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> I won't need a contactor other than the controller.


Correct. There's a built in contactor in Jr and two in S1.



PatricioIN said:


> I can idle the motor for PS and AC, therefore won't need a MR2 or similar PS pump.


Correct. You can specify it to 500-2500 RPM in the web interface.



PatricioIN said:


> I won't need a current shunt.


Correct. Current is measured internally (and not by a shunt).



PatricioIN said:


> I can use programmable outputs for my fuel gauge, temp gauge and check engine (for errors).


Correct. There's one check engine-output and three user selectable outputs.



PatricioIN said:


> I will get a much higher continuous amp draw for better "up to speed" acceleration than a Curtis.


Correct. The aim for junior is the same as for Soliton 1; peak and continuous current will be the same if it's properly water cooled. It will dial down the current when it starts to overheat and will reach 0 Ampere at 95C.



PatricioIN said:


> .. sounds like a deal to me.


Yep.


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## todayican (Jul 31, 2008)

I searched and didn't see the price of Jr, what will it be?


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

It's in post #37 on the previous page:
"We are aiming for an introductory retail price of $1900. More than twice as much power as a Curtis 1231C and a huge difference in functionality for maybe $400 more seems like a bargain to me. "


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

MalcolmB said:


> It's in post #37 on the previous page:
> "We are aiming for an introductory retail price of $1900. More than twice as much power as a Curtis 1231C and a huge difference in functionality for maybe $400 more seems like a bargain to me. "


geez.. this isn't even a long thread. Post #37.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

We've optimized the coolant passage design and now current stabilizes at 462A at 77C compared to the ~375A at 80C before. This is the equilibrium reached between the (overly aggressive) derating schedule of 5% per C (it is 2.5% per C in the Soliton1) and the IGBT temp. So current is being cut by 10% here when it doesn't actually need to be cut at all. We are going to explore a few different options for derating later this week, but as of now we can easily meet our 500A continuous current rating with liquid cooling and should even be able to bump up the current rating at lower temps to 600A (still 500A continuous, though). 

The reason this is taking so much tweaking is because the IGBT module I chose for Junior has a temperature sensor inside it, so it responds much faster to changes in IGBT temp than the thermistor that is on the heatsink in the Soliton1. The sensor in Junior will also run much hotter, too, since it is right next to an actual IGBT die, so at the very least we need to shift the derating range up by 20-30C as that is the usual drop from IGBT dice to baseplate.

This is all relatively minor tweaking, though, so we are gearing up to crank out enclosures for Juniors next week and should have 7-9 of them ready to ship the week thereafter. The first units will, as usual, go to people willing to beta test them for us. We are mostly interested in how it performs in different vehicles this go around, though, and not so much in rooting out bugs - the code is more or less the same as what is running the Soliton1 now, just with a different temperature derating schedule (and current limits, of course).


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

It all sounds quite good to me. I think this will be a very successful controller for you. I am absolutely planning on one for my next conversion.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> but as of now we can easily meet our 500A continuous current rating with liquid cooling and should even be able to bump up the current rating at lower temps to 600A (still 500A continuous, though).


I knew you could do it  Congrats.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Congratulations guys. We all probably just take for granted your expected success with the track record you already have.... It's still another major accomplishment in our EV world. Lots of work I'm sure. This should be a really good fit for a lot of people. To get this price point with all the features of the bigger brother and 500 amps continuous... I think a good a very good fit.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

DIYguy said:


> ...We all probably just take for granted your expected success...


What other outcome could there have been? 

Congrats guys!


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Aye, congratulations, and thank you for responsibly bringing another great product to the EV marketplace
Steve


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

I was planing to build a small car or go-cart with some serious power for my little brother (well, more for myself but don't tell anyone  )

I think one of these would fit in nicely... I could also beta-test it in my BMW.

What throttle input do I need for it?


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> I was planing to build a small car or go-cart with some serious power for my little brother (well, more for myself but don't tell anyone  )
> 
> I think one of these would fit in nicely... I could also beta-test it in my BMW.
> 
> What throttle input do I need for it?


A Soliton Jr. for a Go-Cart? Are you insane?

Neurotikart (http://www.neurotikart.com/) uses a small D&D motor and a Kelly controller, and yet has still been clocked at an impressive 60MPH! When your ass is an inch from the asphalt, do you really need more than that?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> Are you insane?


Yeah, kind of... It's not official so I don't get any money from the government for it


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> Yeah, kind of... It's not official so I don't get any money from the government for it


LOL! Oh, and I was wrong. NK1 used a SEVCON controller, NK2 uses an Alltrax, according to EVAlbum: http://www.evalbum.com/1274 With some footage online:


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> What throttle input do I need for it?


Um. Any that does (or can be brutally violated to) generate a positive voltage somewhere between 0 and 5 Volt? And I really mean somewhere in a very broad definition as long as increased throttle result in increased voltage, although I would strongly recommend against using a throttle that uses a very narrow voltage span, like 2.5 to 2.6 Volt for min and max throttle...


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> This is all relatively minor tweaking, though, so we are gearing up to crank out enclosures for Juniors next week and should have 7-9 of them ready to ship the week thereafter. *The first units will, as usual, go to people willing to beta test them for us.* We are mostly interested in how it performs in different vehicles this go around, though, and not so much in rooting out bugs - the code is more or less the same as what is running the Soliton1 now, just with a different temperature derating schedule (and current limits, of course).


I'd like to offer you my check for $1900 for the chance to test a Jr. in the Electro-Willys. I can be the cold weather tester for you since we've been getting into single digits here, above and below zero F. And with E-W being such an aerodynamic dissaster, and so overpowered with a WarP11, it'd be a geat test bed for pushing the 500 amp limit. 

And since I carry a fire extinquisher immediately available on the jeep, I'm ready and experienced at salvaging "crispy" controller cases.  Not that Jr couldn't shed a few degrees at our current temps.  But it's good to be prepared!!


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

$1900 ... it really lacks only the delivery date 
Please provide a EMI document / certificate, so we could easy use your controllers in germany


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

m38mike said:


> I'd like to offer you my check for $1900 for the chance to test a Jr. in the Electro-Willys. I can be the cold weather tester for you since we've been getting into single digits here, above and below zero F. And with E-W being such an aerodynamic dissaster, and so overpowered with a WarP11, it'd be a geat test bed for pushing the 500 amp limit.
> 
> And since I carry a fire extinquisher immediately available on the jeep, I'm ready and experienced at salvaging "crispy" controller cases.  Not that Jr couldn't shed a few degrees at our current temps.  But it's good to be prepared!!


Hey Mike... "beta testing" this go around is less to see if it will blow up when abused and more to help us determine when to tell people to go with Junior and when they ought to save a few more pennies for the Soliton1. 

Internally the Soliton1 and Junior are very similar. No electrolytic capacitors in the power stage (only difference is that I use 3 smaller film caps rather than 1 big one), a single internal contactor instead of two and a different IGBT module. The main control board is the same, the power control/monitoring board is only modified to accommodate the different physical construction but is otherwise the same. All of this similarity to the Soliton1 is why the very first Junior prototype worked like a charm, and only needed to have the cooling passages moved to be able to reach the performance goal of 500A continuous with liquid cooling.

Anyway, Junior should be a good fit for your vehicle, depending on how much heavier than stock your Willys is now. That said, it would be a much better fit if paired with a reasonably high voltage lithium pack (240V+) and a good Kostov motor wound for high voltage. A standard 36/48V 11" motor isn't going to have an ideal tradeoff between volts and amps for Junior but it shouldn't be a disaster (and Junior won't care about the "low inductance" or anything... it, like the Soliton1, can work with as little as 1uH of inductance, which is 1/100th that of a WarP9). 




brainzel said:


> $1900 ... it really lacks only the delivery date
> Please provide a EMI document / certificate, so we could easy use your controllers in germany


Hey brainzel... do any other EV motor controllers have a certificate of compliance? I mean, I figured that Brusa and MES-DEA would have been tested because they are made in the EU, but I don't think they have. Electronic devices permanently installed in on-road vehicles technically need an "e-mark", and not just a self-certification (CE mark), which requires actual testing for EMC rather than just stating why you believe you pass. We did look into getting an e-mark certification for the Soliton1 last year and were quoted $12,000 for the preliminary evaluation and $8k for each followup, and given that there is little chance of passing the first go around... well, things can get very pricey very quickly. 

In contrast to the EU's "shoot first, ask questions later" approach to regulation, the US tends to wait until something bad happens and THEN crafts regulation for it. Of course, that's how crap like the housing/financial crisis happens... But, in the meantime, we don't have to do any testing for "industrial" equipment, and only have to worry if someone actually complains to the FCC that our motor controller is interfering with their radio/TV/cell phone/etc.

So, we pretty much don't have to worry about EMC compliance here in the US. I always keep EMC testing in mind, though, so I don't expect either controller will need a major redesign to get through the process (unlike, say, controllers that aren't fully enclosed in metal).

However, we do recognize the importance of the European market, so if Junior sells well enough that I can keep the amortized cost of certification to $50-$100 per unit (in other words, after a minimum of 120 have been sold) then I'll go ahead and have it done. It's just a matter of economics.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Hey Mike... "beta testing" this go around is less to see if it will blow up when abused and more to help us determine when to tell people to go with Junior and when they ought to save a few more pennies for the Soliton1.
> 
> Anyway, Junior should be a good fit for your vehicle, depending on how much heavier than stock your Willys is now.


Hi Jeffrey,
So do you have a list of vehicle types you'd like to see Jr tested in, or are you content to simply let the first buyers do the testing in whatever they have? And do you have any testing parameters that you want to see? 

I've been very interested in Jr since you announced the concept way back when. I think it should work for me since I'm a small vehicle commuter, not a hot rod racer. And having so many of the same features as the 1, but being a thousand $$$ less makes it very attractive.

My next challenge is to design an aluminum coffee cup holder/hot plate combo that would take the hot coolant from the controller and keep my coffee cup warm on the way to work!  (Or travelling to Alaska!)


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

m38mike said:


> My next challenge is to design an aluminum coffee cup holder/hot plate combo that would take the hot coolant from the controller and keep my coffee cup warm on the way to work!  (Or travelling to Alaska!)


I'm glad you live on a different continent 'cause I don't want to experience first hand the driving style needed to keep the coffee warm. But do please send a "coffee kept warm by driving"-log, that should amuse me for at least several minutes.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

m38mike said:


> So do you have a list of vehicle types you'd like to see Jr tested in, or are you content to simply let the first buyers do the testing in whatever they have? And do you have any testing parameters that you want to see? ...


Not really a list of vehicles, no. I mean, since Jr. has half the power of the Soliton1 it will give the same acceleration performance in vehicles that are half as heavy, or take twice as long to accelerate a vehicle of the same weight. Whatever trade-off is more acceptable to you is, well, up to you to decide!

My *personal* feeling is that the Junior is best reserved for vehicles with a curb weight 2500# or less. That said, if you don't mind it taking longer to accelerate (top speed won't really be a limiting factor - Junior can run on 300V nominal just like it's bigger brother) and/or live in flat country like Florida then a curb weight as high as 3500# might be fine. Plenty of people use the Curtis 1231C in vehicles just as heavy, but I don't know if they are actually *happy* with its performance - I know I wouldn't be. 

On the other hand, Junior might be just right for a 300# go-kart if you are stark raving mad like CroDriver.

What we don't want is people choosing the Junior when they really ought to be getting a Soliton1 simply because it is cheaper. We rely on our dealers to help guide customers to the right decision, but, of course, how much power you need for your EV really depends on you more than anything else. The Junior will be capable of delivering ~200hp continuous which is more than any passenger vehicle on the planet really needs for "carefree use" (ie - not having to worry if it will make it up a hill or keep up with traffic, etc.), but that requires choosing good batteries and the right motor to go with it, too.


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Am I the only one thinking of a Jr running two smaller motors in series ... Say 2x 144V Kostov 9"?

Small weight penalty, less costly than a single 11" + Sol1, while still having "1000 amps" of torque, well close of "1000 amps". Getting the "safe" max out of both motors and controller, no need for tweaking for high volts for the motors etc.?

Or am I just weird...


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

ewert said:


> Am I the only one thinking of a Jr running two smaller motors in series ... Or am I just weird...


You're probably weird ... but you're not the only one 
I'm planning to run two 7" Prestolite motors in series, eventually with a 240V lithium pack, but most likely with a lower voltage lead acid pack at first, just to get things rolling.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ewert said:


> Getting the "safe" max out of both motors and controller, no need for tweaking for high volts for the motors etc.?


Nope. Just set the max motor voltage in the controller interface to twice the voltage each motor can handle (since they're in series) and everything should be peachy. However, what you gain in cheaper controller will (at least partly) be lost on more expensive charger/BMS (at least if you go for some serious pack voltage), but I think it might still be a win overall.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> do any other EV motor controllers have a certificate of compliance?


Yes, I got a EM certificate for my Curtis 1221C within an hour after calling.



Tesseract said:


> So, we pretty much don't have to worry about EMC compliance here in the US.


I've noticed when I tried to get the D&D motor registered 


If I get a great donor at my blog for the next conversion (which is already planned), I would like to get a JR or S1 and make all the relevant EM tests, so anyone who wants to get a conversion registrated could refer to mine.
That would be a great advantage for every following inspection.


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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

It's a tough call to choose between an AC50 and a Kostov+Jr when the EVnetics boys are pump-priming the audience.


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

My goal is a patron, not the subsidy by the "small" producers 
There are some people out there who think our work is great and honor it by donating us.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

brainzel said:


> Yes, I got a EM certificate for my Curtis 1221C within an hour after calling.


And as I suggested before, I would be extremely surprised if this was an "e-mark" certificate - which is needed for road-going vehicles - rather than a "CE mark" - which is appropriate for industrial vehicles like forklifts. Please double check, maybe even take a picture of it and post it here, because I really can't see how a Curtis controller could pass the e-mark testing process. If it did, however, I won't worry at all about the Soliton1/Junior.

The European safety testing regime is extremely difficult for the small manufacturer to navigate. Wikipedia has a good overview of the differences between the two marking processes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark




brainzel said:


> If I get a great donor at my blog for the next conversion (which is already planned), I would like to get a JR or S1 and make all the relevant EM tests, so anyone who wants to get a conversion registrated could refer to mine.
> That would be a great advantage for every following inspection.


Hmm... I suspect you are talking about getting the vehicle tested for road-worthiness or the like by your equivalent of the DOT? If so, Rebirth Auto has shipped a couple of conversions to the Netherlands which have been through testing by the RDF (I think that is what it is called?) without incident. Soliton1 + WarP9 in both. They seemed to be more concerned with vehicle weight and that all of the batteries (LFP cells, in this case) were securely mounted.

Testing for e-mark compliance, however, requires putting the device or car inside a Faraday cage to look for any RF emissions exceeding a certain level across a range of frequencies then subjecting the device/car with RF to see if it malfunctions (either induced into the wiring - called 'bulk current injection' or actually transmitted to it with various antennas).

The e-mark compliance test is rather onerous to pass, and it is expensive to administer, so I would be very surprised if any company making products for the EV market had it done for anything. Even something as benign as a SoC meter.

For an excellent overview of "e-mark" testing see: http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/03/ARG/jarvis.html


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

The EU law is not so strict for conversions and small-scale production vehicles. You have to pass a RDF test for the whole vehicle, but not on component level.

Small scale production means less than 100 cars/year. 

Nothing to worry about...


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> Nothing to worry about...


Unfortunately even if the law's bearable the officials don't always know it by heart. Several converted cars in Sweden has run into problems with the inspection and then it's taken months, in one case about a year, to resolv the problems. The best one I've heard about was one guy that was asked to provide a certificate from the original car manufacturer that guaranteed that vacuum from an electric pump was safe to replace the vacuum from the ICE to power the brakes. First time I've heard there's different kind of vacuums...


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Damn...I thought that only happens in Finland. Not in the western countries


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## brainzel (Jun 15, 2009)

CroDriver said:


> The EU law is not so strict for conversions and small-scale production vehicles. You have to pass a RDF test for the whole vehicle, but not on component level.
> Small scale production means less than 100 cars/year.
> Nothing to worry about...


I can only write down the questions and problems I had to get my car on the road in germany.
And that's a "thing to worry about" ;-)

You are right, there are thre categories to get checked:
- Massproduction cars: like Nissan Leaf, Audi E-tron, Mitsubishi iMiev
- low volume productions: < 1000 cars a year like Ferrari ;-)
- one time built conversions: such as my beetle and all the other conversions around. The inspector will look more after safety issues and the controls are not so detailed, but the _Electromagnetic Compatibility_ *is* a hugh factor and everything you can provide in paper, will preserve you to get the full car been testet.
In case of the beetle the quotation was €3000 - 5500 Euros ($4000-7300 Dollar).

That should show why I'm so thankful to get around this expensive test 

@ Jeffrey, I'll send you the Curtis certificate, so you can read it.

The Xentrax f.e. has the following entry, which is also good for the inspection:
Xantrex Link 10 (EEC Directive EMC 89/336/EEC, 92/31/EEC, 93/68/EEC)


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

brainzel said:


> @ Jeffrey, I'll send you the Curtis certificate, so you can read it.
> 
> The Xentrax f.e. has the following entry, which is also good for the inspection:
> Xantrex Link 10 (EEC Directive EMC 89/336/EEC, 92/31/EEC, 93/68/EEC)


Interesting... 89/336/EEC is one of those generic self-declarations of EMC compliance that I said can't be used for road-going vehicles.

In other words, what Xantrex is saying here is that their product is a piece of _industrial_ equipment, and not for _automotive_ applications.

If the inspector for your vehicle had been more knowledgeable about the difference between those two classifications your car could have been impounded right there.

If the Curtis certificate doesn't refer to "e mark" compliance and directives 95/54/EC or 2004/104/EC then it is also considered a piece of industrial equipment and not, technically, allowed to be used in a road-going vehicle. Especially not in the powertrain.

Keep in mind that Curtis is a much larger corporation than, say, us, and has an estimated (by Hoovers, Inc.) annual revenue of $30M. They *could* afford to get their controllers e-mark certified, but haven't. That tells you quite a bit right there, I would think.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Keep in mind that Curtis is a much larger corporation than, say, us, and has an estimated (by Hoovers, Inc.) annual revenue of $3M.


Actually that seems rather low for a company such as Curtis.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Actually that seems rather low for a company such as Curtis.



Indeed - it was a typo. Left off the 0 in 30... 

(not that this is relevant or important to the topic of the thread... ahem)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Just keeping you honest.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

So what are your thoughts/plans for a date for the release of Jr's for the common masses? Will it be in a few months after this beta test batch?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

m38mike said:


> So what are your thoughts/plans for a date for the release of Jr's for the common masses? Will it be in a few months after this beta test batch?


Since the Junior is very similar to the Soliton1 in design I don't expect a lot of hardware (or software!) issues. As for the production schedule, that's more our M.E.'s department. The beta units will be machined out of billet aluminum, just like the beta Soliton1 units were, while the production version will be machined from a sand-casting, so it might be a couple of months. We do plan on making "beta units" until the casting is ready, even though that almost totally saps the profit...


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## Bellistner (Dec 12, 2010)

Tesseract said:


> The beta units will be machined out of billet aluminum, just like the beta Soliton1 units were, while the production version will be machined from a sand-casting, so it might be a couple of months.


Charge extra for the Aluminium. It adds 30kW at peak, just like Nismo stickers and milo-tin cannons.


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Hey Tess>> Do I need to be exercising my -1?

You also realize that you and SEB are causing me to have to spend more money with you, right?


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## Plamenator (Mar 6, 2009)

ewert said:


> Am I the only one thinking of a Jr running two smaller motors in series ... Say 2x 144V Kostov 9"?
> 
> Small weight penalty, less costly than a single 11" + Sol1, while still having "1000 amps" of torque, well close of "1000 amps". Getting the "safe" max out of both motors and controller, no need for tweaking for high volts for the motors etc.?
> 
> Or am I just weird...


No, you are not the only one 
We thought of it too - here is a link with pictures of the new dual 9" designed with SolitonJR in mind:
http://kostov-motors.com/tractionmo...its/seriesdcmotorsforelectricvehicles/k9dual/
Still a dual 9" is around 90kg
And side to side with its bigger version - check attachment.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> Hey Tess>> Do I need to be exercising my -1?
> 
> You also realize that you and SEB are causing me to have to spend more money with you, right?


You're doing a Ford Ranger, right? A Soliton1 and 11" Kostov would be a good choice for that size vehicle, especially if you are going to saddle it down with cheap flooded LAs! 

As for causing you to spend more money... please spread some of that blame onto Qer!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> As for causing you to spend more money... please spread some of that blame onto Qer!


Well, last month was "Blame it on Q!" at my day time work so why not extend that tradition to 2011 and the forum...


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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

Not a software problem >>> hardware so I can't blame Qer {yet}

Back to Original question: is there anything inside either junior or 1 that requires a periodic power up to maintain electrolytic films, charge batteries, or whatever??


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> Not a software problem >>> hardware so I can't blame Qer {yet}


Horray! 



piotrsko said:


> Back to Original question: is there anything inside either junior or 1 that requires a periodic power up to maintain electrolytic films, charge batteries, or whatever??


Nope. All settings are stored in non-volatile RAM with a life span of, uh, decades (don't have the data sheet here) so you can leave it on a shelf for years if you like.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

piotrsko said:


> Not a software problem >>> hardware so I can't blame Qer {yet}
> 
> Back to Original question: is there anything inside either junior or 1 that requires a periodic power up to maintain electrolytic films, charge batteries, or whatever??


Oh, you were asking a question? Couldn't tell!? 

No, there is nothing that needs exercising inside either controller. No electrolytics on the power side (a few small ones on the low voltage side).


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Seriously, I'm with JRP on the AC unit. Curtis is selling some small stuff but My S10 will have a curb wt of about 3300lbs after new batteries. 

OTOH, after reading of Rickards testing of regen showed it actually used more power than with it disabled, the jury is still out on that. I still think regen is beneficial if you have the right settings & hardware. But I like the idea of electrical reverse and no brushes and associated issues ie arcing etc.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> OTOH, after reading of Rickards testing of regen showed it actually used more power than with it disabled, the jury is still out on that. I still think regen is beneficial if you have the right settings & hardware. But I like the idea of electrical reverse and no brushes and associated issues ie arcing etc.


To be accurate Jack's tests with two other drivers showed both of them with real world gains from regen while Jack was basically the same with or without. If you have real hills and/or real stop and go driving you should see some benefit from regen, results may vary of course. If you mostly drive long flat roads regen won't do much for you except save your brake pads.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> If you mostly drive long flat roads regen won't do much for you except save your brake pads.


Which in Sweden translates to having regular brake problems due to oxide, thanks to that they salt the roads winter time. Cars with automatic gear boxes tend to have less problems since you use the brakes more than if you drive a stick...

Sooooo, regen might have more consequences than you first think depending on where you live.


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> To be accurate Jack's tests with two other drivers showed both of them with real world gains from regen while Jack was basically the same with or without.


I was wondering if maybe Jack's ~same result was something to do with how below a certain low speed, AC controllers can still provide braking torque down to zero speed, but below that certain speed, it's no longer regen, and *costs* power to slow the motor the last little bit. Basically, the controller provides negative slip, i.e. it spins the motor backwards to drag the rotor and hence vehicle to a complete halt. While the vehicle is stopped, the controller may continue to provide negative slip while waiting at lights, robbing the battery of much, possibly all or even more of the energy returned through regeneration.

Maybe Jack happened to get more or longer stop lights than the other drivers, or there maybe something about his habits (keeping his foot on the brake, or not, using the hand brake or not, I don't know the details), which caused this poor result. This is an area that possibly controller software could improve.

It's just dawned on me that perhaps this idea could be tested with the driving data I vaguely recall Jack posted about this. Maybe I'll get to that soon.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Seriously, I'm with JRP on the AC unit. Curtis is selling some small stuff but My S10 will have a curb wt of about 3300lbs after new batteries. ...


So why not the Tritium WaveSculptor? They've been out for awhile and their price doesn't seem too out of line for an AC inverter of that power level. Indeed, it is nominally similar to what a commercial VFD of the same power would cost, and that's about as a low a price as you should expect.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> So why not the Tritium WaveSculptor? They've been out for awhile and their price doesn't seem too out of line for an AC inverter of that power level. Indeed, it is nominally similar to what a commercial VFD of the same power would cost, and that's about as a low a price as you should expect.


Well we sort of know you guys. I never heard of that thing. I'll have to check it out.


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## ewert (Sep 5, 2009)

Tesseract said:


> So why not the Tritium WaveSculptor? They've been out for awhile and their price doesn't seem too out of line for an AC inverter of that power level. Indeed, it is nominally similar to what a commercial VFD of the same power would cost, and that's about as a low a price as you should expect.


Can that be true, the 22kW and 200kW WaveSculptors are the same price?

...

Boggles the mind.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I didn't check the price but at only 20Kw, that won't work for my truck. I need 28-35 just to climb hills around here on highways at 40-50mph! The 200 was like $6500. Seems like they would have something in between 20 & 160Kw, maybe 80. That would cover most transportation vehicles needs I'm sure.


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## ECCM (Apr 13, 2010)

Can junior push Kostov 11" HV to its limits? If putting the new Kostov 9" HV and junior together, assuming battery is not the limitation, which one would be the limiting party?

Assumption: 3100 lb car. Think late model Ford Taurus. Want to get ~250 HP for one minute to overtake going up hill. Water cooling available. Motor cooling fan installed. Battery at ~290 V fully charged.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ECCM said:


> Can junior push Kostov 11" HV to its limits? If putting the new Kostov 9" HV and junior together, assuming battery is not the limitation, which one would be the limiting party?


Sure, the Junior is rated at 150kW max continuous while the Kostov 11" can take 45kW for 1 hour... Guess which one wins? That is the case for most motors and controllers, however, so it's not really a fair thing to say. Actually, the Junior is a good fit for all of the Kostov motors because they are wound for high voltage, but the new 9"/220V looks especially well-suited. Kostov hasn't yet gotten a Jr. and we haven't yet gotten a motor, so too early to say for sure.



ECCM said:


> Assumption: 3100 lb car. Think late model Ford Taurus. Want to get ~250 HP for one minute to overtake going up hill. Water cooling available. Motor cooling fan installed. Battery at ~290 V fully charged.


To deliver 250hp for 1 minute would require 643A from the battery while it remains at 290V, so, clearly much more current than the Junior can handle. Think of the Junior as a 200hp continuous controller. If you start off close to its maximum voltage rating (say, 320-340V) then with sag you can get an honest 200hp out of it. 

If you want/need 250hp then you really ought to be looking at a more powerful controller. You are squarely in Z1K/Soliton1 territory at that point.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

ECCM said:


> Can junior push Kostov 11" HV to its limits? If putting the new Kostov 9" HV and junior together, assuming battery is not the limitation, which one would be the limiting party?
> 
> Assumption: 3100 lb car. Think late model Ford Taurus. Want to get ~250 HP for one minute to overtake going up hill. Water cooling available. Motor cooling fan installed. Battery at ~290 V fully charged.


What sort of monster hills are in your region that you feel you need/want 250hp?

200hp is more than enough for most applications, (300V * 500A = 150kw = 200hp) @ 300V the peak power would also be extended all the way to 4500-5000rpm, which would give you a very stout powerband to work with...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

ECCM said:


> Can junior push Kostov 11" HV to its limits? If putting the new Kostov 9" HV and junior together, assuming battery is not the limitation, which one would be the limiting party?
> 
> Assumption: 3100 lb car. Think late model Ford Taurus. Want to get ~250 HP for one minute to overtake going up hill. Water cooling available. Motor cooling fan installed. Battery at ~290 V fully charged.


Let me preface this by saying I have a Curtis 1231C rated 500A and an Advanced DC 9" motor. If you're wanting 250HP, you must want to go by your victim peeling the paint off! 

My S10 weighs 4147 with lead pack now. I have one rather steep hill that requires about 38Kw/48HP to maintain 50MPH. That is with my accelerator floored. I did it just this morning to see what it I could get out of it. 

You're 1/4 lighter which means all things equal, you would need only 36HP. But to accelerate and pass you might need 75HP, really not sure but unless you're towing your yacht I doubt seriously you need over 100HP.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Let me preface this by saying I have a Curtis 1231C rated 500A and an Advanced DC 9" motor.
> ...
> My S10 weighs 4147 with lead pack now. I have one rather steep hill that requires about 38Kw/48HP to maintain 50MPH. That is with my accelerator floored. I did it just this morning to see what it I could get out of it. ...


Yes, this is the key consideration here... If you are happy with the 500A you get from a Curtis then the only benefit a Junior will get you in the exact same setup is the ability to sustain that level of power for a lot longer, even continuously if liquid-cooled.

Whether the Junior is a good choice, or a Soliton1 is more appropriate, depends on lot on how much performance is desired vs. the vehicle's weight. Paired with the right pack and motor, a Junior should be able to keep a Hummer cruising at highway speeds, but it will take longer to get to that speed than would a Soliton1.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Tes, I'm considering a Jr. for my next build because it's so versatile, programmable and built in precharge circuitry to name a few. You guys have done a good job with that unit it seems. 

My Curtis for some reason isn't putting taking full battery amps up that hill, only about 300. The motor must be in CL I suppose but I can't get 500 out of the pack in any gear. When I sent it off a while back for possible warranty, on the bench it did the full 500A but I bet that was from the motor side. I think that's how you guys rate controllers. 

I don't have an ammeter on the motor yet. The S10 is very limited in where you can hang things! *Qer needs to build a touch screen 5x7" EVnetics display, a 3x5 would do well I think. And make it plug and play with your controllers.* Less wiring and head scratching is always better than figuring all the hard wiring out! A car stereo with flip up display is one although unattractive option.


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## m38mike (Dec 27, 2008)

ElectriCar, I like the way you think. I think a touch-screen panel would be a great add on to the Soliton lineup. If you were starting a new build, the touch screen would replace several gauges at 50-100 bucks each. And with the superior programming capabilities of Qer, I'm sure it could provide all sorts of analytical data as well as standard performance data. That would really make it attractive. 

I bought a high voltage Cycle Analyst from Grin Technologies in Vancouver BC specifically for the analytical data it can provide. But I'm going to have to figure out the mating plan for connecting the CA to a Soliton. I'd prefer to have a plug and play monitor/analyzer. I sure hope EVnetics will put that on their to-do list.


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> on the bench it did the full 500A but I bet that was from the motor side. I think that's how you guys rate controllers.


Yep. Same with S1 and Jr, they do 1kA versus 500A on the motor side. Battery current will less or equal to motor amp depending on the motor versus battery voltage.



ElectriCar said:


> *Qer needs to build a touch screen 5x7" EVnetics display, a 3x5 would do well I think. And make it plug and play with your controllers.*


I'll just add it to the pile of things I have on my todo list.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Qer said:


> I'll just add it to the pile of things I have on my todo list.


Qer,

Are you sure you just haven't just been modeling for your avatar.

Does Tess need to get the whip out?

Jim


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Are you sure you just haven't just been modeling for your avatar.


Na, that scene is from my daytime job.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have moved all the road salt conversation to a new thread in Chat as it was very much off topic. This should make it easier for those wishing to follow the development of the Soliton Jr.

Admin


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## ECCM (Apr 13, 2010)

Bowser330 said:


> What sort of monster hills are in your region that you feel you need/want 250hp?


Going up mountain Rainier. Elevation 5500 feet. Guestimating from ICE vehicle because auto transmission is suppose to shift at engine's maximum power output, no?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ECCM said:


> Going up mountain Rainier. Elevation 5500 feet. Guestimating from ICE vehicle because auto transmission is suppose to shift at engine's maximum power output, no?


It's not the ultimate elevation that is so important, here, it's how rapidly it changes 

In other words, what's the maximum grade you have to ascend? (Just looked it up with my google machine... the maximum grade is 20%... That's seriously steep, given that a 5% grade doubles the amount of power required to maintain a given speed).

I'm no expert on auto trannies, but modern ICE vehicles use pretty complicated algorithms (or maps) for when to shift. Unless you are flooring the accelerator pedal I doubt that the maximum engine power is being considered except tangentially. It's more a combination of RPM, manifold vacuum and whatever is needed to keep the EPA happy (ie - emissions).

Particularly the latter.

Honestly, if you have to routinely traverse a 20% grade you are one of the few people who would genuinely benefit from an AC system. Might get a 20-25% boost in range from it, whereas the average flatlander doesn't see diddly-squat (not trying to start an AC vs. DC arguments again here, ok?)


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> Might get a 20-25% boost in range from it, whereas the average flatlander doesn't see diddly-squat (not trying to start an AC vs. DC arguments again here, ok?)


Them's fightin' words 'round these parts, put em up! 
I do agree of course


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## PhantomPholly (Aug 20, 2008)

ECCM said:


> Going up mountain Rainier. Elevation 5500 feet. Guestimating from ICE vehicle because auto transmission is suppose to shift at engine's maximum power output, no?


At 5,500' your ICE engine produces no more than about 80% of rated power on a typical day; and only about 90% power half way up the mountain (maximum). Temperature and air density ("density altitude" in aviation-speak) both affect performance, and in the summer you can expect about a 5-10% reduction in power from that (although in winter you may see days with a slight increase in power over a standard day). As noted by Tesseract, unless your ICE engine is turning at the optimum RPMs for power, the power output is further reduced. Thus, what may take a 250hp engine at sea level to accomplish at 70% of peak hp (factoring RPM reduction and air density) with the pedal floored might really only equate to approximately 140hp at 5,500' (250*.7 <for rpm & air density> * .8 <altitude>); and about 160hp at 3,000'.

Electric motors don't lose power with altitude or temperature (or if they do the impact is negligible), and will produce full rated hp over much of their rpm range. An electric motor which is capable of 200hp continuously will likely seem rather peppy to you compared to an ICE 250hp engine in the scenario you describe.

This ability to produce 100% of rated hp at any altitude or temp is why electric motors will be the "holy grail" for pilots, particularly those operating in mountainous areas. An electric motor in an aircraft like mine would easily result in a 30-50mph boost in speed at high altitude; faster climb; and simplicity (much easier to use a fixed pitch "solid" prop when your engine will produce full hp at around half max RPMs; as you climb higher you just let the prop swing faster rather than having to "switch gears" by using a prop that changes pitch to absorb the full hp).


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

We'll be shipping out the first Junior beta units any day now... We did some more dyno testing to see how far we could push the current vs. temperature curve out while remaining within the safe operating area, or SOA, specified in the datasheet. Based on today's testing it looks like Junior will be able to deliver 600A up to an IGBT temp (NOT a heatsink temp!) of 60C, derating linearly from there down to 0A at 150C. However, to protect the other components in the controller from excessive temp we have to derate much faster - dropping to 0A at a very conservative 110C. 

With the conservative derating schedule and liquid cooling Junior can deliver 460A continuously, but I fully expect to hit the promised 500A continuous with a little more tweaking as the IGBT temperature stabilizes at 70C while delivering 460A but the SOA curve says it can do quite a bit more, still, at that temp.

So, JRP3, you were right after all... don't gloat about it, though - it's unseemly.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> So, JRP3, you were right after all... don't gloat about it, though - it's unseemly.


 

It happens rarely enough regarding electronics, I get to celebrate. I knew Jr. had it in him all along


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## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

Looks like the thread has been quiet for a while (not nearly as dormant as me though!), but I figured this was the most appropriate place to post...

My EV has been sitting idle for over a year, and now I'm shopping for a new controller to replace my unusable Electrocraft. I don't want anymore chances of failure, so I'm looking at the Soliton JR.

My goal was to go to as lightweight as I could to be able to use a smaller power system. So my car:
1978 Triumph Spitfire (very light)
ADC L91-4003 Motor
96V 100 AHr LiFePO4

My current controller has the following connections:
12V for controller power / key switch
5K Ohm Pot Input
Motor, Battery - & +

I have 2 contactors between the batteries and the controller. One triggered from the key and one triggered from the pot-box/pedal (with pre-charge resistor).

I need to be able to go 50 mph - hills aren't too bad where I'm living now. My car is clutchless, so the ultimate best-case-wonderful situation would be if I could throw the car in 3rd and drive from 0 to 50 (never shift).

I'm sure the Soliton JR would work (please correct me if I'm wrong!). Do you think it could achieve my goal of not shifting? Or it my motor/battery combination going to prevent that?

I've been reading through the Soliton manual; what all will I have to change in my current design to use the Soliton?

I'm thinking:
New Controller Mount
New 2/0 Cables to reach the new controller
I'll verify my 12V supply is at least 16AWG
Looks like I'll remove my precharge resistor?
Looks like I'll remove the contactor triggered from the pot box?
The PB-6 isn't recommended, but I'm hesitant on replacing any more than I have to. How do you recommend I wire the 0-5k Ohm pot box to generate the 0-5V signal?
What other changes would I possibly need?

Thanks!


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## Qer (May 7, 2008)

ClintK said:


> ILooks like I'll remove my precharge resistor?


Yes.



ClintK said:


> ILooks like I'll remove the contactor triggered from the pot box?


YES! DEFINITELY YES! NEVER interrupt the pack voltage to the controller on a whim like that, it's a loony idea that perhaps works safely with low power lead acid packs and golf carts, but imo it's a braindead cludge that should be eradicated from the EV-scene. With high voltage packs, especially if they're Lithium in combination with controllers that has film capacitors instead of electrolytes, you're asking for getting stranded far away from home with parts blown to pieces due to the aggressive current inrush...

External contactors should be engaged when the controller is turned on and kept engaged as long as the controller is. And this is something I'd recommend to everyone, no matter what controller they're using.



ClintK said:


> I The PB-6 isn't recommended, but I'm hesitant on replacing any more than I have to. How do you recommend I wire the 0-5k Ohm pot box to generate the 0-5V signal?


http://evmetro.blogspot.com/2009/11/pb-6-converted-to-0-5v.html

But as the manual states (page 9):



> _*CAUTION*_: While the popular Curtis PB-6 “pot box” can be adapted to work with Evnetics' controllers, we don't really recommend it because the potentiometer is of such low quality (sorry Curtis!).


We mean it. 



ClintK said:


> IWhat other changes would I possibly need?


I think you've got it covered...


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Tesseract said:


> My *personal* feeling is that the Junior is best reserved for vehicles with a curb weight 2500# or less.


Do you still stand by this? I'm trying to decide which one I should go with. Not looking for a dragster, just something a little stronger than the factory engine performance which was 150ft/lbs torque and 125 HP. The truck is estimated at 3300 lbs.

I run an Advanced FB4001 on a 50 cell Calb pack with an operating voltage around 165. I also have towed a trailer weighing about 5000 lbs through the city driving at city speeds though I've been advised that the motor likely was overworked a bit but I really don't know about that.

And can a 5K pot be used for throttle or does it have to create it's own supply voltage?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Do you still stand by this? I'm trying to decide which one I should go with. Not looking for a dragster, just something a little stronger than the factory engine performance which was 150ft/lbs torque and 125 HP. The truck is estimated at 3300 lbs.
> 
> I run an Advanced FB4001 on a 50 cell Calb pack with an operating voltage around 165. I also have towed a trailer weighing about 5000 lbs through the city driving at city speeds though I've been advised that the motor likely was overworked a bit but I really don't know about that.


While a Jr will be able to deliver more power than a stock 1231C (about 20% more peak torque and more than double the power, on account of the higher operating voltage), I don't think it's a good fit for a truck, especially a truck that might have to haul stuff every now and again.




ElectriCar said:


> And can a 5K pot be used for throttle or does it have to create it's own supply voltage?


Yes, a 5k pot can be used... That's what we use in our throttle assembly, in fact. There is a source of regulated and protected 5V on the Soliton terminal strips for the throttle transducer.

If by 5k pot you really meant to ask if a Curtis PB-6 can be used, my recommendation is no. It is technically possible to make it work, but the quality of the pot is so poor that it's pointless.


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