# What are the alternatives to Chinese made batteries?



## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

Any comments on batteries which are manufactured a bit closer to the U.S.? 

Two reasons diverting my purchasing from Chinese manufacturer's:



Logistics do not sound fun if I need to warranty product
How much do they back the quality of their product? If I report cells which are failing, how much push back or 'dead lines' will I end up with?


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

None of the non chinese manufactures of large format cells seem interested in having anything to do with the DIY market.


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

jeremyjs said:


> None of the non chinese manufactures of large format cells seem interested in having anything to do with the DIY market.


So it's volume orders or nothing? OK fine- is there a thread of preferred vendors that DIY recommends?


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

This, and cost, is why im sticking to lead. Wal*Mart MAXX 29's to be exact. Bit of a monster, 125Ah each. They are every bit of their rating too. Mine are made my Johnson Controls. At 20Amps, i got 132Ah out of my test battery.


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

alexcrouse said:


> This, and cost, is why im sticking to lead. Wal*Mart MAXX 29's to be exact. Bit of a monster, 125Ah each. They are every bit of their rating too. Mine are made my Johnson Controls. At 20Amps, i got 132Ah out of my test battery.



This is sad, there are no more EV battery manufacturers in the U.S.A. anymore?

Is this a classic case of America outsourcing their way toward economical self destruct?

Oh well...


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## alexcrouse (Mar 16, 2009)

Nailed it.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

There are America, Taiwanese, Korean, Japanese, etc Lithium ion batteries out there being mass produced is sizes useful for EV's. The companies just don't seem to have any interest is selling them to anyone but the big players such as major auto manufacturers, power tool makers, electrical utilities, etc.

Take A123 and DOW/Kokam for example.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

chiques said:


> So it's volume orders or nothing? OK fine- is there a thread of preferred vendors that DIY recommends?


They are Chinese made but it doesn't require a volume order considering that there are multiple vendors, including ones that are sponsers on the right side of this page, that are advertising sales of various different cells such as Thunder Sky/Winston, Sky Energy/CALB. One of these Chinese manufacturers, CALB, is actually setting up their warehouse here(called CALIB Power) and selling in the states to consumers for $1.25/Ah for LiFePO4 cells without any volume order requirements.


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

MN Driver said:


> They are Chinese made but it doesn't require a volume order considering that there are multiple vendors, including ones that are sponsers on the right side of this page, that are advertising sales of various different cells such as Thunder Sky/Winston, Sky Energy/CALB. One of these Chinese manufacturers, CALB, is actually setting up their warehouse here(called CALIB Power) and selling in the states to consumers for $1.25/Ah for LiFePO4 cells without any volume order requirements.


Good info, thanks!


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

chiques said:


> This is sad, there are no more EV battery manufacturers in the U.S.A. anymore?
> 
> Is this a classic case of America outsourcing their way toward economical self destruct?
> 
> Oh well...


Nah, it's not outsourcing that's the problem, it's the quick jump to a lawsuit that's ingrained in the American culture that's destroying our manufacturing sector. If a US manufacturer of batteries had a few buyers misuse them and catch their houses on fire, the company would go bankrupt just by trying to defend against a class action lawsuit, even if they end up winning.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Yep. Innovation is stifled in this country by TV lawyers for one and the other thing is greed, probably the more dominant factor. Product development wastes money, lowers stock value and takes money that could be used for dividends unfortunately but that's how corporate America rolls.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Product development wastes money, lowers stock value and takes money that could be used for dividends unfortunately but that's how corporate America rolls.


I have to disagree with this one.....Measured product development (R & D) is an absolutely critical and necessary part for success and sustained growth by any company.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I have to disagree with this one.....Measured product development (R & D) is an absolutely critical and necessary part for success and sustained growth by any company.


Not my thinking, American stock holders and corpororate thinking. General philosophy is that if a return can't be made on their investment in 3 years or so it's likely not to be implemented. Pressure by stock holders AND any bonuses paid will likely be less so they decide not to spend the money. Makes the bonuses more and stock holders smile at the bottom line. But that's another reason this country is in such trouble in manufacturing sector. Milking the cow until another company comes along with a better product etc, often it's a Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese company. 

I have a large customer whom you know and they stop spending at quarter end to make their bonuses larger. It's not corporate policy, in fact corporate frowns on that but it happens every year it seems. Makes the stores put stuff on hold that will have to be done anyway. It's all about "me" with most executives unfortunately or the stock holders short sightedness, same thing there, "me".


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

icec0o1 said:


> Nah, it's not outsourcing that's the problem, it's the quick jump to a lawsuit that's ingrained in the American culture that's destroying our manufacturing sector. If a US manufacturer of batteries had a few buyers misuse them and catch their houses on fire, the company would go bankrupt just by trying to defend against a class action lawsuit, even if they end up winning.


Another very good point.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Not my thinking, American stock holders and corpororate thinking. General philosophy is that if a return can't be made on their investment in 3 years or so it's likely not to be implemented. Pressure by stock holders AND any bonuses paid will likely be less so they decide not to spend the money. Makes the bonuses more and stock holders smile at the bottom line. But that's another reason this country is in such trouble in manufacturing sector. Milking the cow until another company comes along with a better product etc, often it's a Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese company.
> 
> I have a large customer whom you know and they stop spending at quarter end to make their bonuses larger. It's not corporate policy, in fact corporate frowns on that but it happens every year it seems. Makes the stores put stuff on hold that will have to be done anyway. It's all about "me" with most executives unfortunately or the stock holders short sightedness, same thing there, "me".


Oh I see what you are saying. Ur referring to status quo. Yes, unfortunately so for the most part.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Not my thinking, American stock holders and corpororate thinking. General philosophy is that if a return can't be made on their investment in 3 years or so it's likely not to be implemented. Pressure by stock holders AND any bonuses paid will likely be less so they decide not to spend the money. Makes the bonuses more and stock holders smile at the bottom line. But that's another reason this country is in such trouble in manufacturing sector. Milking the cow until another company comes along with a better product etc, often it's a Korean, Japanese, Taiwanese, Chinese company.
> 
> I have a large customer whom you know and they stop spending at quarter end to make their bonuses larger. It's not corporate policy, in fact corporate frowns on that but it happens every year it seems. Makes the stores put stuff on hold that will have to be done anyway. It's all about "me" with most executives unfortunately or the stock holders short sightedness, same thing there, "me".


Are you saying the capitalist economic model is the problem and the communist model is preferred?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I don't think I mentioned capitalism nor communism. Just stating what I've seen over the last 30 years of working with and for corporations. Corporations today, obviously not all but many do just that. It's not the corporate board of directors per say but the CEO's and other high level managers. If the board is behind it then it's likely shareholder driven.


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

I wouldn't say capitalism is a problem. I would say short sighted business practices that favor short term profit over the long term health of the company are. This is true at the higher level management and by the stockholders.


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## Roy Von Rogers (Mar 21, 2009)

atzi said:


> Are you saying the capitalist economic model is the problem and the communist model is preferred?


 
We dont have a capitalistic economy any longer. This country (and others) is ruled by bankers and corporations, and they are stealing us blind.

Or should I say many are blind, thats why they are able to steal from us.

Roy


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

So big business greed practices to this day affect the limitations you and I have in our garages.

this is wacked!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Yup. It affects every thing you buy from corporate America.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

chiques said:


> This is sad, there are no more EV battery manufacturers in the U.S.A. anymore?
> 
> Is this a classic case of America outsourcing their way toward economical self destruct?


It is our government, regulations, and policies. We give manufactures every incentive we can come up with to leave the USA and go elsewhere.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Sunking said:


> It is our government, regulations, and policies. We give manufactures every incentive we can come up with to leave the USA and go elsewhere.


Damn right on that! I run a service business and the paperwork, liabilities alone drive costs up.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Damn right on that! I run a service business and the paperwork, liabilities alone drive costs up.


I hear you. I own my own design/build firm and have downsized my engineering staff. I now contract their work to a Chinese firm that cost me 1/5 to have my employees to do it. 

Another example is I am dropping employee health care benefits. It is less expensive to pay the fine, and compensate what employees I have left than to provide the coverage. I prefer to let you the tax payer pick up the cost with higher taxes... Isn't socialism GREAT?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_*Another example is I am dropping employee health care benefits. It is less expensive to pay the fine, and compensate what employees I have left than to provide the coverage. I prefer to let you the tax payer pick up the cost with higher taxes... Isn't socialism GREAT?*_

Nothing to do with *"Socialism"*in most western countries we have a decent national health system (costing less than half as much as yours) so business does not see that cost - means its probably cheaper to make something in Germany DESPITE the much higher wages, definately cheaper to make things here in NZ - but our managerial classes are all hell bent on outsourcing (sound familiar?)

Its not "*Socialism*" its not "*Capitalism*" - what you have is a system where the rich have bought the levers of power - Exactly what Adam Smith warned about

I think its called an "*Oligarchy*"


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

Duncan are we talking about the same New Zealand?

Let's see NZ per capita income is only 60% of the USA. New Zealand income levels, use to be above Western Europe prior to the recession of the 1970s, have never recovered in relative terms. Income inequality has increased greatly, implying that significant portions of the population have quite modest incomes. Further, New Zealand has a very large current account deficit of 8-9% of GDP. 

Most of NZ manufacturing industries, had only been established with import substitution with high tariffs and subsidies have completely disappeared, and manufacturing's importance in the NZ economy is non existent. NZ exports and economy is mostly based on tourism and agriculture. But i will say you guys have some great lamb.

Now on the up side NZ has made a huge move to the right since 1984. From Wiki:

Since 1984, government subsidies including those for agriculture have been eliminated; import regulations have been liberalised; exchange rates have been freely floated; controls on interest rates, wages, and prices have been removed; and marginal rates of taxation reduced. Tight monetary policy and major efforts to reduce the government budget deficit brought the inflation rate down from an annual rate of more than 18% in 1987. The deregulation of government-owned enterprises in the 1980s and 1990s reduced government's role in the economy and permitted the retirement of some public debt, but simultaneously massively increased the necessity for greater welfare spending and has led to considerably higher rates of unemployment than were standard in New Zealand in earlier decades.


Deregulation created a very business-friendly regulatory framework. A survey 2008 study ranked it 99.9% in "Business freedom", and 80% overall in "Economic freedom", noting amongst other things that it only takes 12 days to establish a business in New Zealand on average, compared with a worldwide average of 43 days. Other indicators measured were property rights, labour market conditions, government controls and corruption, the last being considered "next to non-existent" in the Heritage Foundation and _Wall Street Journal_ study.[11]


In its 'Doing Business 2008' survey, the World Bank (which in that year rated New Zealand as the second-most business-friendly country worldwide), ranked New Zealand 13th out of 178 in the business-friendliness of its hiring laws.[12]


The 1990s liberalisations also had a number of significant negative effects for New Zealand. One of them was the leaky homes crisis, where the liberalisation of building standards (in the expectation that market forces would assure quality) led to many thousands of severely deficient buildings (mostly residential homes and apartments) being constructed over a period of a decade. The costs of fixing the damage has been estimated at over NZ$11 billion.[13]


*AS FOR NZ HEALTHCARE* not quite a rosy picture as you paint. True it is lower than the US per capita, it is in no way better. Wating times can be years for treatment, and all drugs prescribed have to be approved by the government. Fact is NZ HC has gone from total government controlled and paid 20 + years ago,to a mix of public and private funding since reforms in 1984. Those who receive the best healthcare in NZ are the ones with private policies. Again from Wiki:

The *healthcare system* of *New Zealand* has undergone significant changes throughout the past several decades. From an essentially fully public system in the early 20th century, reforms have introduced market and health insurance elements primarily in the last three decades, creating a mixed public-private system for delivering healthcare.


The Accident Compensation Corporation covers the costs of treatment for cases deemed 'accidents', for all people legally in New Zealand (including tourists), with the costs recovered via levies on employers, employees and some other sources such as car registration.
 

The relatively extensive and high-quality system of public hospitals treats citizens or permanent residents free of charge and is managed by District Health Boards. However, costly or difficult operations often require long waiting list delays, which can stretch into months or years (unless the treatment is medically urgent). Because of this, a secondary market of health insurance schemes exists which fund operations and treatments for their members privately. Southern Cross Health Insurance, a non-profit-scheme, is the largest of these at about 60% of the health insurance market and covering almost a quarter of all New Zealanders in 2007, even operating its own chain of hospitals.[1]
 

Primary care (non-specialist doctors / family doctors) and medications on the list of the New Zealand government agency PHARMAC require co-payments, but are subsidised, especially for patients with _community health services cards_ or _high user health cards_.
 

Emergency services are primarily provided by St. John New Zealand charity, supported with a mix of private (donated) and public (subsidy) funds.
 In 2005, New Zealand spent 8.9% of GDP on health care, or US$2,403 per capita. Of that, approximately 77% was government expenditure.[2] In a 2010 study, New Zealand came last in a study for the level of medications use in 14 developed countries (i.e. used least medicines overall), and also spent the lowest amount on healthcare amongst the same list of countries, with US$2510 ($3460) per capita, compared to the United States at US$7290.[3]


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Sunking

As a Brit I lived in the US for four years before deciding on NZ as the best place to bring up my family, - its not paradise and there are better places if I wasn't a lazy English speaker unwilling to learn another language.

Income inequality has increased - but from a very low level we are still MUCH more equal so despite a low average I would MUCH rather be poor here!

Leaky homes - What can I say! flat roofs became *fashionable* people decided they liked Moroccan styling - and it does rain here - morons! - 11 Billion is a very high estimate, I now work for the local council - we have no (zero) claims down here - but then we are not very fashionable!

Agriculture has been a huge success - all subsidies were removed and now New Zealand Agriculture is very efficient and exports massive amounts

Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) is getting a little tweaking but has been a massive success 
NZ citizens gave up the right to sue in exchange for automatic compensation for accidents, 
ACC or OSH investigate and punish where necessary
Works very well with much much less overhead (lawyers) 

Healthcare 

Works very well, anything important gets done by the National Health System,
The amount paid on drugs is misleading as PHARMAC negotiates very low prices as it is a large customer (all drugs for the NZ health system)
Also PHARMAC only buys drugs that work - a ton of money is spent in the US on drugs that don't work!
Less money spent does not mean less effective drugs administered!

Because the life saving stuff is done by the Health System the cosmetic stuff can be done by private companies - and is a lot cheaper - comparable operations are a tenth of the US cost

Its not perfect but it does work - a mix of National Health System and private

*And to the initial point its not a drag on employment,*
As an employer I would not need to provide private health insurance and if I did it would be cheap because it would only need to cover cosmetic stuff

_we have a decent national health system (costing less than half as much as yours) _

_with US$2510 ($3460) per capita, compared to the United States at US$7290_


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## tinrobot (Aug 26, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> Yep. Innovation is stifled in this country by TV lawyers for one and the other thing is greed, probably the more dominant factor. Product development wastes money, lowers stock value and takes money that could be used for dividends unfortunately but that's how corporate America rolls.


Actually much of the innovation still happens here, it's the manufacturing that gets shipped overseas.

When you have low tariffs, workers available for less than $1/hour, plus the freedom to dump toxic waste without fear of regulation, then you have huge incentives to manufacture overseas.


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

```
It is our government, regulations, and policies. We give manufactures every incentive we can come up with to leave the USA and go elsewhere.
```
 I couldn't disagree more. The reason our major corporations are manufacturing their products oversea's is because they can. Until we start practicing fair trade rather than the fraud of "free trade" nothing will change.
To eliminate the roadblocks that you claim are forcing these manufacturers to leave the US, we would have to drive our wages down to those of the average Chinese worker, and eliminate all environmental and safety laws. Only then can we compete on even terms, I hardly think this is what you are suggesting. 
Instead, we need to do what every other industrialized country does, protect our home industries and labor force from unfair outside competition through tariffs.
This country has virtually no tariffs because our government's policies are designed to serve the best interests of the corporations and not the people. It serves the interests of major corporations to allow outsourced goods free and open access to our market. 
Our system is no longer a free enterprise capitalist system, but rather a corporatist system where the 6 major American industries have completely bought their way into our government and hijacked our democracy for their own benefit.


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> ```
> It is our government, regulations, and policies. We give manufactures every incentive we can come up with to leave the USA and go elsewhere.
> ```
> I couldn't disagree more. The reason our major corporations are manufacturing their products oversea's is because they can. Until we start practicing fair trade rather than the fraud of "free trade" nothing will change.
> ...



And we can't do a damn thing because China has us by the balls with their 1 trillion dollars worth of treasury bonds.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

> ......1 trillion dollars worth of treasury bonds.


Humbug, That is a drop in the bucket. Just sounds huge.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Guys

*Actually much of the innovation still happens here, it's the manufacturing that gets shipped overseas.

When you have low tariffs, workers available for less than $1/hour, plus the freedom to dump toxic waste without fear of regulation, then you have huge incentives to manufacture overseas.*

How is it that Germany is such a huge manufacturing country?

low tariffs, - check
workers available for less than $1/hour - try $25/hr 
the freedom to dump toxic waste without fear of regulation - you must be joking Germany is STRICT!!

IMHO
The Germans do it because their unions have the power to keep management honest

And because corporations are required to consider all stakeholders -not just the shareholders

Damn - wish we did it as well as the Germans!


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

```
And we can't do a damn thing because China has us by the balls with their 1 trillion dollars worth of treasury bonds.
```
 On the contrary, the Chinese don't own as much debt as we are led to believe. 7.5% of our debt is held by the Chinese.
The Chinese need us more than we need them. Their entire economy is dependent on exports to the US. Our market is 3 times the size of China's, and China would have a massive trade deficit without the US. We can easily leverage that relationship in our favor.

The problem is that our own multi-national corporations are making huge profits by exploiting China's labor and then dumping their products into the US market, and want to make sure it stays that way.
For decades they have crafted the false narrative that free trade was the only way to prosperity, when in reality the only ones that prosper are themselves. 

We need to tell them the party is over, and if they want to sell their products in our market, they need to be made here or pay a tariff. Every other major industrial country has figured out what we knew since Adam Smith in the late 1700's,and that our own corporations are trying hard to make us forget.


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

Duncan said:


> ....Damn - wish we did it as well as the Germans!


I don't expect less from Germany. They have always been badd ass when it comes industry and design.


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## chiques (Mar 9, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> ```
> And we can't do a damn thing because China has us by the balls with their 1 trillion dollars worth of treasury bonds.
> ```
> On the contrary, the Chinese don't own as much debt as we are led to believe. 7.5% of our debt is held by the Chinese.
> ...



So who has the power to push for these tariffs? Democrats and Republicans are in bed with the media Giants. Most people depend on advertisements to make decisions on voting. How do we change this cycle? 

*I WANT MY AMERICAN MADE BATTERIES!*


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Every other major industrial country has figured out what we knew since Adam Smith in the late 1700's,and that our own corporations are trying hard to make us forget.*

Every other *NON ENGLISH SPEAKING* major industrial country has figured out what we knew since Adam Smith in the late 1700's,and that our own corporations are trying hard to make us forget.

I think the USA has been roggerred worst - but the British, Australian, Canadian and Kiwi arses are sore as well


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

chiques said:


> So who has the power to push for these tariffs? Democrats and Republicans are in bed with the media Giants. Most people depend on advertisements to make decisions on voting. How do we change this cycle?
> 
> *I WANT MY AMERICAN MADE BATTERIES!*


 It's going to take a special leader, like Teddy Roosevelt or FDR. They had the courage of their convictions to do what had to be done for the good of their country, rather than their own political ambitions. 
A leader can only fight this battle with the collective will and force of the people, right now our corporatist media has succeeded in polarizing citizens against each other, diverting attention from the real issues.
Unfortunately, I don't think things are bad enough yet, but I have confidence that things will get patched up temporarily until the next even larger crash, perhaps then, if it's not too late.


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## atzi (Jun 26, 2008)

Is it possible China and India are economically more capitalistic than we are?

No way, could it not be that. Remember they are socialist. *Socialist* even though they *don't have* .......


national health care,
national unemployment compensation (some country I heard pays for not working for 99 weeks! or more if you have come back from a military war zone),
social security,
welfare,
free housing for all,
free education,
government pensions and


permanent disability if you can not work.
Well the State of The Union Address make me feel better. 
Now the Government of The United States is going to fix things by
*doing more and spending more.* 

The perfect capitalist solution
​


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## jeremyjs (Sep 22, 2010)

atzi said:


> Is it possible China and India are economically more capitalistic than we are?
> 
> No way, could it not be that. Remember they are socialist. *Socialist* even though they *don't have* .......
> 
> ...



Spending more wouldn't be so bad in tough economic times if the SOB's hadn't already put us 14 trillion in debt.


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## Sunking (Aug 10, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> Chinese don't own as much debt as we are led to believe. 7.5% of our debt is held by the Chinese.


Correct and growing rapidly.



cycleguy said:


> The Chinese need us more than we need them.


 Correct again and there is no way we will quit buying everything they can make because they can do it for far less than we can make it. They have nothing to fear



cycleguy said:


> Their entire economy is dependent on exports to the US.


 Now you are spinning . Chine exports to every nation, and China is the major exporter to just about every country worth talking about, not just the USA. In order for a country to grow or remain stable is to export more (bring in more money they they ship out) than they import. All the money and resource are flowing into China. You cannot stop them without war.


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

```
Now you are spinning . Chine exports to every nation, and China is the major exporter to just about every country worth talking about, not just the USA. In order for a country to grow or remain stable is to export more (bring in more money they they ship out) than they import. All the money and resource are flowing into China. You cannot stop them without war.
```
Yes, China does export to many other nations, however those nations have their own tariffs that prevent Chinese good from completely flooding their market and destroying their economies.
China relies on unfettered open access to the American market to maintain a trade surplus. If it wasn't for US exports they would be running a fairly substantial trade deficit.

There are a number of things that can be done, such as instituting a FAIR TRADE policy , like reciprocal trade. For every dollar of their goods that we import, they need to import the same amount of our goods. This cannot be construed as a trade war by any reasonable person and would at least force them to open their market to our goods.

I don't think that the Chinese government is the major force that needs to be reckoned with for this to change, but rather our own American Multi-national corporations. For them, this arrangement is the best of both worlds. They have the advantage of lower manufacturing costs in China, and the advantage of having free and unlimited access to the US market to sell those goods. They are the ones responsible for creating and maintaining this policy and have bought our elected officials for decades now to make sure this doesn't change.
As soon as any elected official even hints at rethinking this policy, the collective might and money of the powerful corporations come crashing down on them with all kinds of propaganda, negative campaign ads and political hit jobs, until they are forced to jump back into bed with them for their own political survival. 
I'm afraid that they have so corrupted and fixed the game in their favor that this policy will remain until they bleed every last penny out of this country.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

cycleguy said:


> As soon as any elected official even hints at rethinking this policy, the collective might and money of the powerful corporations come crashing down on them with all kinds of propaganda, negative campaign ads and political hit jobs, until they are forced to jump back into bed with them for their own political survival.


Which is only made possible due to the stupidity of the american populace unfortunately .


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

*Which is only made possible due to the stupidity of the american populace unfortunately*

Strongly disagree 
Americans are not especially dumb - but - your government system is now an Oligarchy -
you need to get the money out of politics and move to a sensible Parliamentary system


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## poprock (Apr 29, 2010)

Duncan said:


> *Which is only made possible due to the stupidity of the american populace unfortunately*
> 
> Strongly disagree
> Americans are not especially dumb - but - your government system is now an Oligarchy -
> you need to get the money out of politics and move to a sensible Parliamentary system


 More of a mix of an oligarchy with a plutocracy; considering families such as the Kennedy's; Getty's and Ford's mixed money and the power of mass appeal, but hey, that's what has made America what it is today.Like it or lump it.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Poprock1

From your location neither you or I need to 

*Like it or lump it.*


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

Duncan said:


> *Which is only made possible due to the stupidity of the american populace unfortunately*
> 
> Strongly disagree
> Americans are not especially dumb - but - your government system is now an Oligarchy -
> you need to get the money out of politics and move to a sensible Parliamentary system


I'm sorry, but they really are. The democrats wanted to have an intelligent discussion on how to reform our health care because if nothing was changed, our current system would've bankrupted us in 10-20 years. But one commercial from Keiser Permanente saying the key word "Socialism" and any form of rational discussion is thrown out of the window. People threw their toys out of the pram and started yelling at anyone and anything at the town hall meetings just to try to turn the process into a circus. You think our representatives are all selfish, money grabbing, commanded by lobbyists and big corporations... there was our chance to have an honest debate and pure stupidity prevented it from happening.


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

icec0o1 said:


> I'm sorry, but they really are. The democrats wanted to have an intelligent discussion on how to reform our health care because if nothing was changed, our current system would've bankrupted us in 10-20 years. But one commercial from Keiser Permanente saying the key word "Socialism" and any form of rational discussion is thrown out of the window. People threw their toys out of the pram and started yelling at anyone and anything at the town hall meetings just to try to turn the process into a circus. You think our representatives are all selfish, money grabbing, commanded by lobbyists and big corporations... there was our chance to have an honest debate and pure stupidity prevented it from happening.


This is exactly how the corporate interests operate to get their way. They manipulate the 30% of stupid people in this country with propaganda that plays to their inner fears, racism, and complete lack of intelligence on any matter of importance, to radicalize them into action on their behalf. 
This, along with their well coordinated media propaganda machine that amplifies the message over and over again, as well as the bought politicians that repeat the message, all contribute to a false narrative that mobilizes those 30%, as well as the other 30% that are too busy watching American Idol to care, into voting against their own best interests in a matter of months.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

icec0o1 said:


> I'm sorry, but they really are. The democrats wanted to have an intelligent discussion on how to reform our health care because if nothing was changed, our current system would've bankrupted us in 10-20 years. But one commercial from Keiser Permanente saying the key word "Socialism" and any form of rational discussion is thrown out of the window. People threw their toys out of the pram and started yelling at anyone and anything at the town hall meetings just to try to turn the process into a circus. You think our representatives are all selfish, money grabbing, commanded by lobbyists and big corporations... there was our chance to have an honest debate and pure stupidity prevented it from happening.


Forcing the populace to buy health insurance is not "an intelligent discussion on how to reform our health care system".


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## tewasch (Nov 2, 2009)

Tariffs are fundamentally unsustainable over the long run. If your society and economy is in ruin, tariffs will only delay the inevitable but they won’t fix the problem. You can’t blame China for not importing enough from the US when we don’t offer anything of better value that they need to buy that they can’t get elsewhere for a better price.


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Forcing the populace to buy health insurance is not "an intelligent discussion on how to reform our health care system".


 Well it is in one way. If you are going to keep the health care system a for profit system, which was the intent (right or wrong), how are you going to force insurance companies to accept preexisting conditions, no lifetime or annual caps, and prevent them from dropping their customers when they get sick, if there was nothing in it for them? Insurance companies accepted the deal, because they knew that in return for these concessions, they were getting millions of new customers to offset this cost. The biggest fan of the mandate are the insurance companies. Eliminating the mandate will collapse the whole deal, which may actually be a good thing, then we can start over with a single payer system which is what should have been done to begin with.


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

Batterypoweredtoad said:


> Forcing the populace to buy health insurance is not "an intelligent discussion on how to reform our health care system".


Nobody was forcing anything on anyone back then. It was only forced by the democrats after realizing that an honest discussion with republicans would be impossible. 

The current system would've bancrupted us in 10 years. What was your solution? Here are the possibilities:

1.) Cut the 30% proffit insurance companies take off of every dollar you and your employer pay into health insurance = max reduction in health care costs of about 10-15%? 
2.) Force drug companies to lower their billion dollar proffits and make drugs cheaper = max health care reduction of 10% but decreasing investment + proffits of future drug research. (Although I'm a biochemist and believe the average american is overdrugged, as most drugs are worthless and actually make things worse over the long run)
3.) Force Medical School to lower their tuitions (a person might have to borrow up to 500k to become an MD) which will lower their exorbinantly high 6-figure salary requirements = health care savings over time, possibly slightly worse health care, and won't take effect for a while. 

All three have ENORMOUS political lobbies and would rather put a trillion dollars into adds, campaigns, and lobbying then take proffit cuts. Which one would you choose? Democrats decided to allign with the doctors (#3) and the drug companies (#2) to attempt to cut insurance company proffits (#1). 

Of course republicans would say place a ceiling for medical lawsuit compensations but if you honestly looked at those figures, it would only decrease health care costs by 1-3% and it's another HUGE lobby you'd have to fight. I'm for all of it, but since we can't fight them all, we have to pick our battles. 

Am I missing a 4th option to cutting health care costs?


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

tewasch said:


> Tariffs are fundamentally unsustainable over the long run. If your society and economy is in ruin, tariffs will only delay the inevitable but they won’t fix the problem. You can’t blame China for not importing enough from the US when we don’t offer anything of better value that they need to buy that they can’t get elsewhere for a better price.


True, plus what's to stop China from imposing identical tarrifs on our exports to China, effectively nullifying our tarrifs?


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I think we're getting a little off track now...


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## icec0o1 (Sep 3, 2009)

ElectriCar said:


> I think we're getting a little off track now...


Well, all of that contributes to why battery manufacturing won't be done in the US in the near future


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Ok well here's my take on why NOTHING is made in this country anymore.

1. Unions inflating wages in manufacturing. It was good while it lasted FOR THE UNION WORKERS. It cost everyone else who bought union made products.

2. Minimum wage increases, fraud perpetrated on the ignorant masses. If you think about it just a little bit, its' obvious it's just an election gimmick. For any business who employs people making the minimum it drives their costs up. For their competitors and the companies who employ people just above minimum wage, they have to increase their labor & therefore prices or they could lose workers to a company with a better environment at another company who now pays about the same as they're making. Cleaning out septic tanks or flipping burgers, which would you rather do for the same money? Over time, these yearly government forced increases raise prices for other companies who raise their prices to compensate. 

If minimum wage increases worked as they sell it, everyone would be rich now. When I started working it was $2.80. Now it's almost 8 or just over 8, not really sure. Yet the ones making that 30 years ago are just as broke now as they were then, probably worse. Now there's very little manufacturing in the US and 10% of the country is sitting home and truthfully a lot of folks would work for less than they did 5 years ago if they could just find a job.

3. Taxation. Since I entered the work force, they've added medicare tax to EVERYONE'S CHECK WHO WORKS and increases SS withholding % from paychecks. Cities have raised sales taxes, raised school taxes, and created NEW taxes, prepared food in my area is an example of that. And businesses are closing. Look around you wherever you are at all the vacant industrial and office buildings. 

4. Government intervention in businesses, osha requirements are ridiculous and some rules nearly impossible to comply with if enforced for one example. IRS compliance is another HUGE drag on small businesses.

If you want ANYTHING made in this country anymore, you're going to have to wait for those who make the laws to reduce taxes on companies and workers and stop inflating wages.

5. And lately, add oil dependency to the mix. No need to elaborate on that on this site.

This country rebelled against British taxation and became very wealthy. Then government got involved and since then it's gone to hell. If you want something screwed up, get the government bureaucracy involved in it and kiss it goodbye. That's not to say the government is all bad as that's nonsense but the good that is does is most of the time is WAY TOO EXPENSIVE and we simply can't afford to continue down that road.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Electricar

To all of your points I say one thing

*GERMANY!*

Strong Unions, High minimum wage, High Taxes, Strong Regulation

And a massively successful *manufacturing* *and exporting* country

*Every other major industrial country has figured out what we knew since Adam Smith in the late 1700's,and that our own corporations are trying hard to make us forget.*

Every other *NON ENGLISH SPEAKING* major industrial country has figured out what we knew since Adam Smith in the late 1700's,and that our own corporations are trying hard to make us forget.

I think the USA has been roggerred worst - but the British, Australian, Canadian and Kiwi arses are sore as well


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## cycleguy (Oct 7, 2009)

Electricar, this is exactly the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. 

This last year was a record year for corporate profits in the US, yet no jobs. 2/3 of our major corporations don't pay any tax at all, and get tax credits and subsidies instead. Despite having one of the highest corporate tax rates, the actual effective tax rate that the government collects is less than 11%. 

It's been over 10 years since we've had an increase in the minimum wage. Workers today are making less than they were 10 years ago when adjusted for inflation. Income taxes have also steadily dropped over the last 30 years, not increased.

The facts just don't support your argument. The root of our economic trouble is that the middle class has no more purchasing power than it did in 1968, despite a doubling of productivity.
This has caused a severe decline in demand which is crippling our economy.


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## Batterypoweredtoad (Feb 5, 2008)

icec0o1 said:


> Nobody was forcing anything on anyone back then. It was only forced by the democrats after realizing that an honest discussion with republicans would be impossible.
> 
> The current system would've bancrupted us in 10 years. What was your solution? Here are the possibilities:
> 
> ...


Forcing people to buy overpriced insurance covering overpriced, overprescribed, overlitigated, overused medical care is in no way a solution. Any time you remove a consumers knowledge of the cost of a service both the supplier and user of that service accept price explosions until that service is no longer providable or usable. Our medical system was heading that way and is now being encouraged to head that way with the decision that we are all just idiots if we choose lesser or no coverage so the government must take our money and buy it for us. 

You asked for solutions: 

1) Maybe institute a basic level of care funded through taxes like medicare or medicaid but this is survival only care. Life sucks if you want to use this care, but you do live. Insurance is still available if you want better care.

2) Do nothing and let the system fix itself. It was happening in some places and starting to work. Solantic style clinics with posted prices and cost conscious customers. Insurance policies with higher deductibles and much lower costs. Doctors accepting cash with lower rates. When things get too expensive for consumers someone will figure out how to provide the same or better service for less money. Let it happen.


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