# S10 S15 Suspension Mods



## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm not sure where to post this so if it needs to be moved have at it.

I've got my battery racks in and batteries in place. Now the truck is squatting in the rear while the front is pointing up. We installed helper springs (bolted to the leaf springs) and you can see they're working but it's nowhere near enough to support 1500 lbs of batteries and racks.

From what I can tell the main options are 
1. Bags that you blow up with an air compressor - $200 parts
2. Coil over shocks - $75 parts
3. Adding leafs to the leaf springs - $50-400 parts

Other options: 
1. Flipping the axle to have it below the springs $??? Safety is my concern here.
2. Air Shocks - $100???

Just curious what others have found that works great and what doesn't work. I hate to waste more time and $$$ as I've already got gobs of both invested! 

This thread could help others as well who have tried something and it didn't do the job and those like myself who are ready to do something. I hope you'll take the time and post your trials and successes!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Other options:
> 1. Flipping the axle to have it below the springs $??? Safety is my concern here.
> Electricar,


Just a hint, unless you like backing up at high speed, flipping over the axle is a no-no. That will reverse rotation. If you need the springs on top of the axle move the spring perches. Plus with flipping there are brake backing plate issues and ring gear lube issues you will run into. I know this because I had to do this reverse rotation flipping thing for an ultralight pulling tractor and then solve all those other issues.

Air bags are with helper springs worked best for me on a leaf spring S10 (not EV just had to carry a lot of weight) along with preimum shocks. That way I could adjust ride height depending on load. 

Every Air shock I tried failed quickly, either poor quality in the shock (cheap hydraulic internals) or bag leakage.

Extra leafs in your springs will have so much friction between leafs that the truck will ride like a . . . well, truck.

Add on coil over springs for your shocks are not too good, very hard to get set evenly. Also I don't like the way they clamp on. 

Unless you buy preimum purpose built coil overs (expensive). Those are OK. 

Finally, you absolutly want preimum shocks on the vehicle, no matter what you use to increase the load rate. With that much extra weight it is a safety issue.

Jim


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## CPLTECH (Sep 14, 2007)

Mine has an extra leaf spring installed and works fine. Since it was done before I got it, I have no idea where it was purchased.
94S10


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## AlterPower (Sep 5, 2008)

Take a look at Blazer springs. With Rangers, the Explorers, and especially the ones with factory towing, have higher spring rates while having the same physical dimensions. Maybe the S-10/Blazers are similar. I would avoid lifting via a flip kit since it will not address the reason for the sag, only how it looks. You might also be able to slip an extra leaf in there, most quality spring shops can help with this.

Luck!

-jk


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

If this was a ford ranger, I would suggest F150 springs. The lengths are identical, but the F150 has more arch and higher spring rate. I've done this mod actually. (1983-1987 ranger and 1980-1996 F150)

Any one of the options you mention could work, but I would not EVER recommend bolt on helper springs. They are easy, but they add stress to the OEM springs in all the wrong places (thats why that ranger needed new springs). I would probably go with airbags or adding springs to the leaf stack. Adding a rear anti roll bar would also be a good idea.


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## rich18325 (Aug 17, 2008)

I would suggest that you find a spring shop in your area. They have the expertise on what to use as a new leaf. You will want to weight the rear wheels. A salvage yard or truck stop will have scales to do this. With that information the shop will be able to give you the right spring. All of the other ways you list has major drawbacks. The spring mounts are designed to take the weight ,not the shock mounts, they are only used to control the bounce of the spring. I hope this helps.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Just a hint, unless you like backing up at high speed, flipping over the axle is a no-no. That will reverse rotation.


Jim,

I don't blame you for misunderstanding what he meant.

He means doing a SOA (Spring-over Axle) converison, which doesn't really mean "flipping the axle over".

It means welding spring perches to the tops of the axle and mounting the springs to the top of the axle instead of underneath.

This is very common practice when lifting a 4x4.

ElectriCar-

The problem with converting to SOA is this:

1) You're doing nothing to help the springs handle the weight.
2) You're increasing the leverage the axle has on the springs.
3) You're reducing ride quality.

I would not recommend using SOA as a solution to the issue.

I think Add-a-leaf's plus coil overs would be the best route, or a beefy enough coil-over itself should do the trick.

Keep it simple, don't go overboard. If something looks like a hack (like bolt on spring assists) then it probably is a hack.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

TX_Dj

Figured as much (as I said in the post, move the perches) but in 35 years of fixing cars you wouldn't believe all of the things I've seen and heard. So I would rather err on the side of caution. Doesn't make me popular but I sleep well.

I agree that the best bet is a set of preimum variable damping rate purpose built coil over shocks with the right springs (look in Jegs and Summit catalogs for names). But lordy those that have adjustable spring rates and damping are pricy.

Thats a lot of weight he has slung back there for the rear axle to control. especially if he ever carries anything heavy in the bed.

Oversteer might be a real concern.

I mentioned the Air Bags, Installed into Coil Helpers (with preimum shocks) because:
1.) He is halfway there and he did mention cost as a factor.
2.) I put about 75000 miles on an S10 with those installed, a lot of them with 1500 lbs of tractor and other stuff in the bed.
3.) I don't like adding a spring leafs because the additional stiction can contribute to axle hop on stutter bumps.
4.) Clamp on coil overs suck
5.) In my experience Air Shocks are worse

In my opinion, the purpose built coil over shock setup will give about the best (most supple) ride and best axle control and THATS A LOT OF WEIGHT TO CONTROL. But like I say those shocks are pricy.

Be well
Jim


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

AlterPower said:


> Take a look at Blazer springs. With Rangers, the Explorers, and especially the ones with factory towing, have higher spring rates while having the same physical dimensions. Maybe the S-10/Blazers are similar. I would avoid lifting via a flip kit since it will not address the reason for the sag, only how it looks. You might also be able to slip an extra leaf in there, most quality spring shops can help with this.
> 
> Luck!
> 
> -jk


The axle came from a Jimmy thus rated 600lbs more than the S10. I think I'll take a look at that as the truck they came off of is just down the street. 

Your reaction to the axle flip was sort of like mine. Bad idea I thought. Just sounds scary.

I didn't think the air shocks thing was a good idea as that's another part to fail...

Thanks for your post!


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

rich18325 said:


> I would suggest that you find a spring shop in your area. They have the expertise on what to use as a new leaf. You will want to weight the rear wheels. A salvage yard or truck stop will have scales to do this. With that information the shop will be able to give you the right spring. All of the other ways you list has major drawbacks. The spring mounts are designed to take the weight ,not the shock mounts, they are only used to control the bounce of the spring. I hope this helps.


This is the avenue I thought was probably best. I never thought of the shock mounts having to bear all that weight and not being designed for it. I'll probably order a leaf kit from JC Whitney or try the springs under the Jimmy that my axle came from. Do you think the Jimmy springs will work?

RE the scales: I weighed it before I tore it down. It had 1100 on the rear axle. Removal of the gas tank with maybe 4 gallons in it and replacing it with battery racks and the weight of the batteries I estimate the weight on the rear axle at 1100 +14-1500 so around 25-2600 lbs before considering the weight shared with the front wheels. 14 batteries ahead of the axle are stretched out to just under the cab, placing a lot of weight on the front wheels. There's 8 behind the axle and most of that weight is near the axle. 

That said I don't think steering will be a problem as most of the pack weight is between the front and rear wheels


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Sounds like you have a made a plan, stick with it until it passes or fails. 



ElectriCar said:


> This is the avenue I thought was probably best. I never thought of the shock mounts having to bear all that weight and not being designed for it. I'll probably order a leaf kit from JC Whitney or try the springs under the Jimmy that my axle came from. Do you think the Jimmy springs will work?


*A important caution*, when you replaced your drum brake axle with the disc brake axle did you MAKE SURE you have the correct master cylinder and pressure compinsator installed. They are quite likely different.

PLEASE PLEASE make sure, I dont want to see you get hurt. 

Another note of caution on those axles, I beleive the rear wheel bearings are a needle bearing that uses the axle shaft itself as the inner race. They are not what you would call robust. Correct lube type and level is critical with those. They are known to fail without any additional load. A bad case failure will eat up shafts requiring replacement.



ElectriCar said:


> RE the scales: I weighed it before I tore it down. It had 1100 on the rear axle. Removal of the gas tank with maybe 4 gallons in it and replacing it with battery racks and the weight of the batteries I estimate the weight on the rear axle at 1100 +14-1500 so around 25-2600 lbs before considering the weight shared with the front wheels. 14 batteries ahead of the axle are stretched out to just under the cab, placing a lot of weight on the front wheels. There's 8 behind the axle and most of that weight is near the axle.


I don't know what the OEM % of weight balance front to rear for this vehicle is supposed to be (it was probably something like 55% front 45% rear). After you weigh (weigh front and rear axles seperatly) it if you have less then 45% on the front tires as I suspect you do you might want to move some weight around.



ElectriCar said:


> That said I don't think steering will be a problem as most of the pack weight is between the front and rear wheels


I'm wondering about your comment on steering, I mentioned in my post that you mighrt have oversteer problems due th the change in weight distribution. Just in case you don't understand what that is. (I'm good at making an ass of myself by belaboring the obvious) It when the backend suddenly wants to become the front end. This can happen when, amoung many other steering and or suspension dynamics, weight overcomes the tires ability to control the vehicle. If that wasn't what you were commenting on Ignore the above and consider me an ass.

Be well,
Jim


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> Sounds like you have a made a plan, stick with it until it passes or fails.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


RE the brake system - A guy told me I'd not notice any difference in driving, some S10's didn't have a compensator or some to that effect from the factory. I'll know more when the rubber meets the road! 

Steering issues? Beats me. I'll again no more when I try it out. Bear in mind, this thing isn't going to be driven over 50mph most of the time, if that makes any difference. It's being purpose built just for city driving, an errand truck with 8 mile city commute.

Weight distribution? As of now, the nose is pointed up noticeably without the proper rear support needed to address the 3/4 ton cargo... Finally I'm adding two batteries and probably 2hp DC motor to drive the AC up front that should add maybe 200 lbs up there. However, I added weights from the rec room just to see what it would do. After nearly 200 lbs, you could hardly tell any difference... It is HEAVY in the back!


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

I second the rear break remarks. Not all vehicles even have brake proportioning valves. As I found out on a saturn forum, the saturn rear drums can be easily converted disc without having make any other changes to the car or brakes. That car has no proportioning valve either.

My full size pickups on the other hand both have and require brake proportioning valves. When you consider the added weight that batteries would add to the rear of the vehicle anyway, I would expect the breaks to overall perform much better.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

I just went and looked at the pictures again it's a nice job, and once you get the wiggles worked out it will be nicer. 

Just had a brain fart, why not lower the front end to "level er out" then you'll have a real low rider. a rough riding low rider . . . can you say . . . buckboard? 

Yah I know Im not good at being funny either.

Good luck, at least you seem aware of and are expecting some potential driving issues.

Keep posting your progress, I've subscribed. i'm very interested in the outcome.

Jim


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> I just went and looked at the pictures again it's a nice job, and once you get the wiggles worked out it will be nicer.
> 
> Just had a brain fart, why not lower the front end to "level er out" then you'll have a real low rider. a rough riding low rider . . . can you say . . . buckboard?
> 
> ...


In fact I was just talking with my guys today about lowering it! I've read on this site that lowering reduces drag. Some are adding bottom pans to further reduce drag which I'm planning to do as well! However I'm 6'1 and 45 with a patched up back so I don't want to be bending over and crawling inside either. Will have to find a happy medium I guess. 

Thanks for your interest re progress. I'm waiting on parts from everywhere and am having to look for stuff to do in the meantime. Stuff should begin arriving tomorrow. 

One of my guys is reworking the stereo system for me now. I'm installing the final pack and Pak Trakr wiring now. We're going to install the Pak Traker "brain" likely by Friday since we just tonight found a place to mount it that will look OEM! 

Got the 12V system energized again following the gutting of the engine electrical. All systems appear go and the speedometer is working as well, something that concerned me until we saw it going with the wheels turning! 

One thing I've not checked is to see if the factory battery guage is still working or not. 

*PS For those reading that haven't installed any instrumentation yet or don't know what to install,* the Pak Trakr seems to be most everything all rolled into one, especially if you buy the current sensor. 
Then you'll have:


Pack or motor amps (your decision)
Pack Voltage
Fuel guage
Text alerts for several problems
This thing is awesome and I highly recommend it. It's WAY more than a set of gauges!

Check out the specs here


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

You do seem to have things well in hand.

Thanks for the link, I've been meaning to look that unit up. 

I only have room for limited instrumentation and I would like something that I can step through pack parameters to check condition after the hook to see how things survived. This thing looks good

My EV conversion is a bit off the wall so I have been chasing down other gremlins while I have been slowly removing the old components, making measurements, drawing up the stuff to be built, while ordering the new stuff and deciding which is the better component. 

Since I've also decided on a second simultaneous project. I had to get that thing set up as well. I needed the frame, transaxle, motor and front axle put kind of together so I can make measurements and design subassemblies. 

Since the new pole building won't be up until late next year and the old shed's roof is gone I have to work outside, snow is coming so I want to have all of the things I can do over the winter lined up between trips to hospital.

Meanwhile I'm having fun completing other peoples conversions vicariously while I recouperate. Of course with my personality I've probably Pissed Off a lot of people while doing it. When I see something I think is wrong, I just have to say something.

Sorry TMI.

Since electric pulling tractors seem to Be A New Thing there is not a lot of information out there.

My major concern to date has been the inevitable motor runaway I expect to havewhen start I breaking drive train component. You know what they say if you arn't breaking something . . . you ain't trying. 

I think I might have a system worked out that might stop that damage. I asked D&D Motors and Alltrax to look at it and give an opinion. Hopefully I'll get a pass.

Be well,
Jim


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## kittydog42 (Sep 18, 2007)

The best thing to do is buy heavier leaf springs. For trucks, it is easy to find replacement springs in both medium and heavy. They are rated by additional weight over stock.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Just an FYI: I took what appeared to be the consensus here and applied it. I picked up a set of springs from a 4x4 S10. Looked like mine but had 4 leafs instead of 3. They raised the truck about 2-3 inches! It's back about where it was.

The next issue is the front end. It now is probably 1.5" too high due to the loss of about 300# or so. An old guy said he would heat the springs which would allow it to drop. I'm not a mechanic but that sounds like it could be a problem later. 

Oh, BTW, I drove it the first time Monday... I'm still smiling when I pass the pump! Got about 80 miles on it now and it's headed to Maaco tomorrow or Monday.


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## AlterPower (Sep 5, 2008)

You're gut is exactly right on! Don't heat the springs --or cut coils off no matter what the "old school" rodders tell you. When you do these things the ride gets really bad since you have less working coils at the original spring rate.

S-10 have lots of lowering options via re-wound coils. If it were mine I would consider a set of for a 2" drop. They'll have a decent spring rate and give you the drop.

All the best!

-JK


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## morvolts (Jun 19, 2008)

get a set of 2 inch drop spindles


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm going to add one more leaf. I weighed it and the front is within 40 pounds of where it was before. I guess then that the rear is still sagging a couple of inches. 

I've got 200 miles on it now and tomorrow I get it from the paint shop with it's new Black with clear coat paint job. "Get your motor runnin..."


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Interesting read on this, more interesting as I have an S15 ext cab and eventually want an electo-10. 

Without knowing much about how your batteries are laid out, is there any possibility of moving the batteries you said are behind the axle to in front of the axle, even if it means building a shelf and double-stacking them? If you can, it would help immensely as any weight behind the rear axle is going to have a leveraging effect on the weight, as it will make the rear axle act as a see-saw and actually pull up on the front end. I make use of this principal in the winter by stacking tubes of sand sealed in PVC behind the rear axle, and use straps to hold the tubes in place against the tailgate. 160lbs of sand back there is very effective, but when I put it in front of the rear axle it wasn't nearly as effective. Moving a few batteries from behind the axle to in front of the axle would shift probably 1.5 times the battery's effective weight from front to rear since the battery would then be pushing down on both front and rear wheels instead of down on the rears and up on the fronts. You'd still need the heavy duty springs in the back since most of the weight will still be there, but the fronts would then be doing their fair share as well.

Hope this helps.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Putting that kind of weight behind the axle would also result in a rear vehicle weight bias. Not good for handling or braking performance. Considering the weight involved here, I would advise getting as close to a 50/50 front rear weight distribution.


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