# WarP 13 vs. 2 x Warp 9



## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

Hi Everyone,


I'm in the early planning stages of converting my '68 Porsche to an EV (largely thanks to inspiration from Joey's Porsche and detailed build thread). I am blown away by the performance from twin WarP 9s from White Zombie and DC Plasma, and am interested in turning my Porsche into a quick 0-60 mph electric car (2-3 sec 0-60 mph desired).

The trouble is, it would be near impossible to fit tandem WarP 9s into the car (unless they were stacked on top of each other, which would introduce more complications or add $5k for a Rebirth Auto kit), so I am looking at the WarP 13 motor as an alternative. Does anyone know about the performance of this motor - how does it stack up against a twin Warp 9 set-up? 

I can't find any builds using the WarP 13. Also, I don't quite understand the series or series/parallel configuration of the WarP 13. Is that something that the Zilla 2K will switch automatically and get more performance out of the motor (like it does for 2 WarP 9s)? I suspect I'll need the Zilla 2K, and a completely new direct-drive set-up to handle the torque (which will be another challenge for later - still looking at feasibility).

I've never built an EV before, so I apologise for my lack of knowledge.


Any help is appreciated!


Thanks!
-RGad


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

The warp 13 isn't a "racing" motor and wouldn't work for what you want to do. Many people compare the performance of a pair of Warp9's to a Warp 11HV (not to a 13).
Unless your Porsche is VERY light, you are going to struggle to get 0-60 in 2-3 seconds.
I have a pretty quick EV (down because it looks like I zorched my motor so I've been looking at alternatives to just fixing my motor).
0-60 is around 4.8 seconds to the best I can measure and 3000lbs.

If you want a dedicated drag car that's another story, you can strip off everything and go with custom suspension. If you want it to be a street car with that kind of performance and some sort of range it's a much tougher challenge.

Neither are inexpensive, so I hope you have the budget to match the goals.


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

Many thanks for your help! Sorry to hear about your motor. 


Fortunately, the stock weight of my '68 912 is 2,095 lbs. (one of the benefits of almost no safety provisions, and no PS, PB, etc.). If built well, it should be pretty light-weight post-conversion. My estimates are for a final weight of 2,690 lbs, which is between White Zombie (2,348 lbs), and DC Plasma (2,758 lbs). 

Thanks very much for the advice re: WarP 13. With that, I'm guessing that the best performance option is a TransWarp 9 + WarP 9 connected together to achieve a sub-3 second 0-60 mph. (Also, could be lighter than the WarP 13) Given that I would have to stack the motors one on top of the other, would you (or anyone) know of any good options to link two motors together in such a fashion?

The only option I have found to date is a kit from Rebirth Auto, but I don't know that much about it.

In terms of budget, I justify it as being less expensive (and hopefully more fun) than a Tesla Model S costs in Canada. Plus, I think it would be a great experience to build an EV.


Thanks for your help!
-RGad


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

RGad said:


> I'm in the early planning stages of converting my '68 Porsche to an EV (largely thanks to inspiration from Joey's Porsche and detailed build thread). I am blown away by the performance from twin WarP 9s from White Zombie and DC Plasma, and am interested in turning my Porsche into a quick 0-60 mph electric car (2-3 sec 0-60 mph desired)
> 
> 
> I've never built an EV before, so I apologise for my lack of knowledge.


Without putting the car on a massive weight reduction program this is going to be really tough to attain. To get to the 3 second 0-60 mark you will end up with a car that you would not want to drive on the street and would not have much range.

My suggestion since you have not built an EV before is to build a single motor EV with a single WarP 9 running 96 LiFePo4 cells of perhaps 60AH size. I would limit the motor current to 1000A because you can't really run these currents too long anyway. This should give you the experience of building a car and it will be a pretty fast car. This should be around a 6-7 second 0-60 mph car with a usable range of around 60 miles. When you get to the kinds of power levels you are talking about it is easy to break stuff and you will.

Good luck and best wishes!


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

RGad said:


> Many thanks for your help! Sorry to hear about your motor.
> 
> 
> Fortunately, the stock weight of my '68 912 is 2,095 lbs. (one of the benefits of almost no safety provisions, and no PS, PB, etc.). If built well, it should be pretty light-weight post-conversion. My estimates are for a final weight of 2,690 lbs, which is between White Zombie (2,348 lbs), and DC Plasma (2,758 lbs).
> ...


Those are purpose built drag cars, so unless that's what you are going for it's still a tough proposition. More so in the battery, a pair of warp 9's in series with a Zilla 2k EHV would probably get you in the ballpark, but probably not with stacked motors unless you can find a very good belt or just buy the rebirth kit.

If you get that worked out, then you need a lightweight insanely powerful battery. With the demise of A123, Li-Po is probably your only option. You would need a 90-100 cell pack capable of 1500-2000A without too much voltage sag.

I wouldn't put Li-Po in a street car though, unless it's the Kokam cells in White Zombie.

What part of Canada are you in?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

I was going to suggest the Warp11HV option that was brought up before...

From what I can tell its one of the best motors out there, high voltage tolerant to allow for a higher-rpm peak power curve (more like traditional ICEs)

Any data on why your motor zorched RW?


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> I was going to suggest the Warp11HV option that was brought up before...
> 
> From what I can tell its one of the best motors out there, high voltage tolerant to allow for a higher-rpm peak power curve (more like traditional ICEs)
> 
> Any data on why your motor zorched RW?


Nope, I was running a log on the PL6, but wasn't logging with the Soliton1. I wasn't at "peak power", I've pushed it harder previously, I would guess the RPM's were between 2500-3500 in 3rd gear at or near full throttle. Basically I was driving to a safe place where I can do a 0-60 test. I was driving somewhat aggressively to warm up the battery pack. 

On a side note I had changed the brushes a few months earlier from H49's to H60's which produce a very different brush dust which may have contributed to the zorch?


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> Nope, I was running a log on the PL6, but wasn't logging with the Soliton1. I wasn't at "peak power", I've pushed it harder previously, I would guess the RPM's were between 2500-3500 in 3rd gear at or near full throttle. Basically I was driving to a safe place where I can do a 0-60 test. I was driving somewhat aggressively to warm up the battery pack.
> 
> On a side note I had changed the brushes a few months earlier from H49's to H60's which produce a very different brush dust which may have contributed to the zorch?


interesting, do you have forced air cooling? I had always thought that forced air flow/cooling would help prevent the brush dust from accumulating and encouraging arcing....


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Bowser330 said:


> interesting, do you have forced air cooling? I had always thought that forced air flow/cooling would help prevent the brush dust from accumulating and encouraging arcing....


I was working on a forced air system that I've been testing on the bench, but it wasn't installed yet. I would agree the forced air should help keep the dust down.

The dust from the H49's was was more chalk like, it was a powder that was very black.
The dust from the H60's glistens in the sunlight and seems "lighter" since it would take longer to settle after blowing it out of the motor.

Given the conditions I would guess that brush dust contributed to the zorch.

George Hamstra recommended the T300 brushes in my motor but I already had a replacement set of H60's waiting to go in after others reported better efficiency with them.


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

Thanks for all of the help.

Are there any good acceleration calculators out there that take in data from the WarP motors? I spent some time tonight looking through forums and online to find good calculators to compare the expected performance with the WarP 11 vs WarP 9, but didn't have much luck...

RW: My car is in Manitoba - near Winnipeg (a fair distance from you).
=)

Thanks again!
-RGad


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

RGad said:


> Thanks for all of the help.
> 
> Are there any good acceleration calculators out there that take in data from the WarP motors? I spent some time tonight looking through forums and online to find good calculators to compare the expected performance with the WarP 11 vs WarP 9, but didn't have much luck...
> 
> ...


There have been a few excel based calculators, not necessarily to compare motors but some EV info, one of them may be useful. 

The only real data out there is finished builds, so you need to find similar cars with the motors in question. 

Don't get hung up on thinking that the motor determines the performance though. It's more like the transmission in a gas car, it must be able to handle the torque/hp/rpm put into it but it doesn't "make" the power like a gas engine does. The main differences between a Warp 9 and 11 are the thermal mass (how much power it can handle long term) and the "gear ratio", both the 9 and 11 will transfer the same amount of power out if the input power is the same. The difference is the 11 develops more torque per amp but less rpm, where the 9 develops less torque per amp but higher rpm, the power is exactly the same. The 11HV is a slightly different beast, because it handles higher voltages, but it's basically just a "higher rpm" transmission.

The battery and controller will determine how much power you have. The controller is a fairly easy choice, since you just increment up power levels. It's an important choice but one of the easier ones.

The battery is what really determines how much power the vehicle has, it's a balance between Voltage/Capacity/C-rate/Voltage sag/Cost/Size/Weight.

Hope that helps.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> There have been a few excel based calculators, not necessarily to compare motors but some EV info, one of them may be useful.
> 
> The only real data out there is finished builds, so you need to find similar cars with the motors in question.
> 
> ...


nicely put, that's wiki-material....


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## MasterCATZ (Sep 28, 2013)

I am also wounding about this 

how ever I am wanting to make use off all the extra torque and use a gear box to create rpm at the wheels 


for Drag Race application 

at a quick glance 


Warp 9 car weight 3600, 1633kg (Twin 7200 , 3266kg )

Weight 143, 65kg (Twin 286 , 130kg )
Torque @ 1000A 237,321 ( singe motor )
Norm RPM 3300
MAX RPM 5500

Warp 13 car weight 7000, 3175 kg
Weight 367, 136kg
Torque @ 1000A (ft-lbs, Nm) 440,597
Norm RPM 3000 ( normal engine RPM 100km speed limit here in AU ) 
MAX RPM 5500

how much torque would the twin have ( would it be double a single ? )


it looks like a twin 9" is a winner at 6 kg lighter motor 
is it possible to run only 1x motor and switch on the second when wanting to race ? or would it be just as efficaint to run both so the other motor is not opposing 
( I was thinking of driving car to race strip towing a trailer full off batteries for distance  ) 

and maybe only having capasitors inside the car 
( only need 1 min worth of power if that )
and change banks after each race 

personally I wanted 1 motor per wheel but could not find anything with high RPM with enougth torque to do it 

so after higher torque and ger box combination

also noticed this for around $8k

HPEVS Dual AC-35 Brushless Motor Kit - 144 Volt
Motor Diameter: 8.9 Inches
Motor Case Length: 19.8 Inches
Motor Shaft Length End to End: 24.1 Inches
Motor Type: AC Induction
Brushes: No
Interpoles: No
Weight: 68 Kg 
Max Voltage Input: 171
Terminal Stud Size: 3/8 Inch
Integrated Sensors: Encoder
Rated Torque: 190 Lb Ft
Rated Power: 165 HP
Continuos RPM: 5,000
Max RPM: 10,000
RPM Sensor: No
Drive End Shaft: 1 1/8 Inch With 1/4 Inch Keyway
Acc/Commutator End Shaft: Optional 7/8 Inch With 3/16 Keyway 
Timing: N/A
Max Efficiency: 88%
Thermal Cooling: Internal Fan
Max Temperature: 180 Degrees Celsius (356 Degrees Fahrenheit)
Matching Dual Controllers Included In Price: 1230-8501 Curtis Controller
Warranty Period: 2 Years

*edit * 
cheers for the reply 
dougingraham 

with out stealing this thread 

maybe I should stick to my original idea of 4x Direct wheel drive motors
if my math is right wheel RPM x circumference / 1056 (inches to miles per hr conversion ) 
with stock street tires should have an exit speed off 
74 inch wheel circumference	3000 RMP	210 MPH 338 KMH ?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

MasterCATZ,

Two motors is going to be exactly twice the torque of a single motor assuming the batteries can deliver twice the current.

Capacitors cannot be a substitute for batteries in a drag race at this time. There just is not enough energy storage per unit of volume.

The HPEVS system is pretty neat. However the limiting factor is the Curtis controllers. The dual setup is twice the power of a single. But this is only because there are two controllers. To get the power levels you need for drag racing you would want two of these setups minimum (that is four controllers). The dual AC-35 arrangement is similar in power to a single warp9 motor. Not quite as much torque but higher HP due to the wider usable RPM band. If you look at the HPEVS motors using the Curtis controllers you find that they all produce about the same power, they just need different gearing and this is because the 144v Curtis does 500 amps so is limited to about 72kw. The 96v Curtis can do 650 amps so that one limits you to about 62kw. The higher current gives 30% more torque but that torque gives up at a lower RPM.

HPEVS needs a higher voltage and current controller in the worst way to take advantage of the motors they are making.

The best bang for the buck today is dual WarP 9's with dual 2000 amp controllers. And a battery pack that will produce that 4000 amps without sagging below 200 volts and not weighing a ton. The battery is going to be the trick. With a setup like that you would most likely see near 1000 ft-lbs and peak horsepower of 600 (for the few seconds until the motors melted down).


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## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

My uni has a supercap drag car. 

It can do 1/4 mile, but is probably a faction of the weight of a street legal vehicle, and don't expect to drive it to the line or back to the pits.


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Ziggythewiz said:


> My uni has a supercap drag car.
> 
> It can do 1/4 mile, but is probably a faction of the weight of a street legal vehicle, and don't expect to drive it to the line or back to the pits.


What is a uni?

I am interested, any links where I can read more about it?


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

dougingraham said:


> What is a uni?


Uni = University - In this case, I'm guessing this supercapacitor is somewhere in Texas???


Seriously - big thanks to everyone for all of the help & suggestions - especially RWAudio. 

I think I was on the stray path chasing dual 9s or a 13. Keeping it simple seems like good advice, and I heed your advice on the battery being much more important than the motors.

I think the dual WarP 9's connection and series/parallel contactors are too complicated for a first time build, and Smoke Screen (GE 13" motor) doesn't seem that versatile of a vehicle (and from what I could tell, geared very strangely with high voltage).

I read CroDriver's entire build thread, RWAudio's blog, and Joey's Porsche 911 blog. I have absorbed a lot of learning, and even more inspiration.



I am now leaning towards either a TransWarp 11, or TransWarp 11HV with direct drive - likely 4.11:1 ratio or higher, as I never really need to go much over 60 mph (it's the journey from 0-60 MPH that interests me). 

I'm hoping the higher gear ratio provides two benefits: 

A faster 0-60 time
Lighter load on the WarP 11 (Netgain recommends a maximum weight of 2200 lbs for direct drive applications - I'm estimating 2475 lbs for my converted weight with a single WarP 11)
I like the idea of the additional torque from the standard TransWarP 11, and lighter battery pack at the lower voltage for the non-HV version. The car gets heavy (and expensive) if I try to build a suitable battery LiFePo battery pack for the TransWarP 11 HV.

For batteries, I'm thinking 56 x Winston LFP100AHA (100 Ah each), which have a burst of 20C, giving 2000 A, to match a Z2K. The spec for LFP100AHA shows a max burst of 20C for 5 seconds in one minute, which I would hope would be enough time to get close to 60 mph?

Any thoughts / advice?


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

RGad said:


> I am now leaning towards either a TransWarp 11, or TransWarp 11HV with direct drive - likely 4.11:1 ratio or higher, as I never really need to go much over 60 mph (it's the journey from 0-60 MPH that interests me).
> 
> I'm hoping the higher gear ratio provides two benefits:
> 
> ...


If you are going to drive this on the street the recommendations are different than if you are just going to drag race it. You really need to set your goals and your budget.

I am around an 8 second 0-60 with a single warp 9 and 51 cells in a 2400 lb car with the motor current limited to 700 amps. I still have a transmission and I generally use 2nd (8.67:1) to start out and 3rd (5.6:1) around town and 4th (3.91:1) on the interstate. For street driving this is just a really pleasant amount of power. If I turn up the current limit to 1000 amps I would never bother to use 2nd but I feel that this is hard on the motor. I think I would see close to a 6 sec 0-60 with the current at 1000 amps.

For a first build I would suggest a single motor, keep a transmission of some kind. Use a pack voltage that when sagged at 1000 amps will stay above the max motor voltage. With the WarP9 and the Helwig H60 brushes this would be 192 volts. This would give an unsagged nominal voltage of about 220 which is 69 cells. Max voltage off the charge would be 234.6. Use 100 ah Calb cells so you can load them to 1000 amps. You limit the voltage the motor sees with the motor controller. From what you have said I think your choices for controllers are really limited to Soliton 1, Zilla 1KHV (or 2KHV) or the NetGain that does the high voltage and high current. With this setup on a 2500 lb car I would expect to see a brand new pack max range of around 88 miles and a reasonable range of 60 miles for long battery life over the life of the pack.

If you are only going to drag race that voltage and controller recommendation stands but you would use a smaller pack of more exotic and fragile cells.


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## Bowser330 (Jun 15, 2008)

dougingraham said:


> If you are going to drive this on the street the recommendations are different than if you are just going to drag race it. You really need to set your goals and your budget.
> 
> I am around an 8 second 0-60 with a single warp 9 and 51 cells in a 2400 lb car with the motor current limited to 700 amps. I still have a transmission and I generally use 2nd (8.67:1) to start out and 3rd (5.6:1) around town and 4th (3.91:1) on the interstate. For street driving this is just a really pleasant amount of power. If I turn up the current limit to 1000 amps I would never bother to use 2nd but I feel that this is hard on the motor. I think I would see close to a 6 sec 0-60 with the current at 1000 amps.
> 
> ...


+1000 great post


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

RGad said:


> Uni = University - In this case, I'm guessing this supercapacitor is somewhere in Texas???
> 
> 
> Seriously - big thanks to everyone for all of the help & suggestions - especially RWAudio.
> ...


Glad to hear you are catching on, many things related to electric vehicles go against what we are familiar with in ICE vehicles. I would agree with others in saying keep a transmission even if it's a 2 speed powerglide or similar. Direct drive on a DC motor means you need to swap polarity to go in reverse, which means you now need multiple contactors in the motor loop capable of handling that 2000A. 

As for the battery choice I highly recommend you use data sheet specs to narrow your search and find the top 2-3 cells that would work for you, then buy one or two of each and test them. Winston's look good on paper, but I would put them up against CALB CA100's and see what happens. The "data sheet" info on CALB makes them look inferior, however in my testing they are the best prismatic around. 

Winstons won't do 20C for any length of time reliably and voltage sag at that load would be massive. CALB won't do 20C either, for that you would need some type of Li-PO or other Li-ion cell.

If you want 2000A out of a prismatic I would go CALB CA180.

Good luck!


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

What is the overall budget in this build? Just a quick ballpark of the parts that have been mentioned (calb 100ah, Soliton1, single warp9, brush upgrades) comes to about $16k. There are still lots of parts to buy. Agreed its way cheaper than the tesla mentioned before but to get the performance numbers you are looking for in a safe enjoyable street car you could be looking at $25-30k. Also consider the high performance suspension and powertrain parts needed to handle all of this power. 

Lots of good info/advice so far in this thread!


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

Thanks guys - very much appreciated!

I did some further research today. Sad that the LiFePo's aren't able to hit 20C . Have they been advancing output/max discharge over the past couple of years? I should have known that the Winston 20C claim was too good to be true...  That would have been too perfect. On the bright side, if the technology *is* advancing every year, at this rate, maybe 20C will be possible by the time I get to the batteries in about 2+ years...  (I've been told to save the best <batteries> for last)

Thanks RWAudio for the suggestion on CALB 180s. Is there any data on voltage sag for the CALB 180s at 10C burst? Sadly, a pack of 180s will add another 300 lbs (and ~$6k) to my car. 




DanGT86 said:


> What is the overall budget in this build?





dougingraham said:


> If you are going to drive this on the street the recommendations are different than if you are just going to drag race it. You really need to set your goals and your budget.


Thanks Doug & Dan, and thanks Doug for sharing your performance figures.


*Goals: *

Fast 0-60 MPH street legal car (4 seconds or less would be great)
Range: 50 miles - mostly highway driving
Top speed: ~70 MPH (i.e.: top speed isn't important. 0-60 mph is)
I'm not a drag racer. I haven't even been to the strip. Never even had a speeding ticket. But there's something intangibly satisfying about the thought of having a fast electric car that can blow away almost any gasoline powered car in 0-60 MPH. Not that I would every day...

I think that a fast 0-60 MPH would be my main 'purpose' of the build (or in electrical speak, f(Goal) = 2000 Amps Z2K + Warp 11 = ???). Not range, or high speed, but fast acceleration. A range of 50 miles means it can be used every day, which would be a great bonus.


*Budget: *

As for budget, I was hoping to do the conversion (including direct-drive set-up) for about $30k. I found a great link in another thread on Dutchman, which seems a very cost-effective path for the direct-drive aspect.
http://www.dutchmanaxles.com/products/

I hear what everyone is saying re: transmission, but I really don't like the transaxle in the Porsche - it's clunky and weak. The stock 119 lbs of transaxle was built for 120 ft-lbs, and my research online found that the known maximum destructive torque for this type of transaxle is 230 ft-lbs. That's not much fun now, is it?... 


Perhaps I will still be convinced on the direct drive issue, but I am really drawn to the acceleration aspects of direct-drive DC (especially if I was ever to pursue future upgrades). I love the idea of a quick electric car, and recently read '_Build your own Electric Vehicle_' from cover to cover after watching '_Who Killed the Electric Car_', and '_Revenge of the Electric Car_' in the same week. There's a real battle raging between the rational half of my brain, and the other half...

Okay, I've said enough - especially considering I'm on vacation in Thailand...


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

LiFePO4 is advancing, they started at 1C continuous 2-3C peak, and most are up to 3C continuous and 5-10C peak.

Because of the low internal resistance the CALB CA is about the best right now, but not even close to A123, or the high discharge (expensive) Li-po or other Li-ion chemistry's that will do 20C or more.

If you use a Zilla 2K HV but just a low voltage motor (Warp 11) you can have a higher battery pack voltage than motor voltage. IE if you had a 300v pack and a 150v motor limit (setting in the controller) you could have 2000 motor amps, but it would only draw 1000 amps from the battery. In a crude way you can think of it like a transformer. You of course have to account for sag, but just because you "want" 2000 motor amps doesn't mean you actually need a battery capable of 2000A

In my 944 before toasting my motor I was running a 250v motor limit with a 300v pack, a 750A battery limit on the CALB 60's and 1000A motor current limit. The car is 3000lbs and 0-60 in 4.8 seconds.

As for the transmission look around for what's compatible, I don't recall what Porsche you have but the transmission from a 944 Turbo is good for 300ft-lbs all day every day, and some guys swapping in V8's are often developing 400-500ft-lbs. That's stock and very easy to come by ($500-700). Some of the 911 transmissions are drastically tougher, some kit car builds use the Porsche G50 transmission ($3000-4000) because they are one of the best toughest transaxles around.

I have a 5 speed transmission so it's easy to compare ratio's and estimate the ideal ratio. And for me it would be about 5.5:1 (my guess). With 2000A you might get in the range of ratio's available in a rear dif, so pick one that's easy and cheap to try different ratio's and has something in the 4:1 or higher range.


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## DanGT86 (Jan 1, 2011)

Glad to see you are realistic with the budget. 

As far a s transaxles are concerned, I think you are going to want something very heavy duty. If you looked at DC plasma's build thread you probably noticed the ford 8.8 rear IRS differential. This would be a good choice for some serious torque. There is a very wide range of gear ratios and people have used them into 4 digit horsepower ranges. You can find one in a Lincoln mark 8 or late mustang cobras. They are very well supported in the aftermarket. 

Another drivetrain option would be a C5 corvette rear differential from RPM transmission. They also do custom adapters to mate powerglides and TH400 transmissions to corvette rear diffs. If you got a transwarp series motor it should be pretty easy to mate it to a vette differential. Mark Carlyle (http://carlyleracing.com/?cat=5) has a corvette running high 6 second quarter miles with an independent rear suspension built by them!
http://www.rpmtransmission.mobi/c5pricing.html
Downside is that this may not be much cheaper than the rebirth belt setup you were talking about. 

Info on corvette IRS performance. Just imagine your transwarp motor bolted where those transmissions are.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.co...and_independent_rear_suspension/photo_18.html

There are lots of companies that will make custom axles for IRS setups. I think most charge about $300-400 for custom length axles. 

These battery packs from the ampahaulic website in John Metric's sig would probably do the trick. I don't imagine they would hold up as long as CA Calb cells but power/$ looks good. They are about 2/3 of the way down the page.
http://www.ampahaulic.com/


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> The warp 13 isn't a "racing" motor and wouldn't work for what you want to do. Many people compare the performance of a pair of Warp9's to a Warp 11HV (not to a 13).



Seriously? You may want to check what is inside a few of the quickest racing EV's. The fastest EV time to date is from Shawn Lawless's Rocket bike, sporting a 13" GE. Dennis Burube's Smoke Screen has probably more quarter mile runs in than all others combined... he runs a 13" GE. 

As you know, the motor in an EV is better compared to the transmission in an ICE. As long as you don't melt it, it will convert your battery power to mechanical power. Two 9" motors have been compared to one 11" motor. Two 11" motors have been compared to one 13" motor. It's all how you gear it and if it can take the battery juice...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> rwaudio said:
> 
> 
> > The warp 13 isn't a "racing" motor and wouldn't work for what you want to do. Many people compare the performance of a pair of Warp9's to a Warp 11HV (not to a 13).
> ...


None of those were WarP 13 motors  Have you seen a quick EV actually using a WarP 13?



DIYguy said:


> As you know, the motor in an EV is better compared to the transmission in an ICE.


That is a bad analogy or comparison IMHO  The electric motor is an energy conversion device; the transmission is a power transformation mechanism. The motor has electric power in and mechanical power out. The transmission has mechanical power in and mechanical power out, albeit at a different ratio of RPM and torque. The two are completely different in function.

If anything, I would think the motor controller compares to the transmission. It has electric power in and electric power out; just in a different ratio of volts to amperes. Both the transmission and controller transform power (change the ratio of thru/across variables) or the energy flow through the device. Neither converts power or energy from one form to another (except for the proverbial losses as heat).


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Ah ... Major... how are you Jeff? Still baby sitting I see... I guess we can disagree with most things if we try hard enough.



major said:


> None of those were WarP 13 motors  Have you seen a quick EV actually using a WarP 13?


You may have noted the op compared the twin Warp9's in the Zombie and DC Plasma. As you know the zombie siamese 9s are about as close to Warps as the GE 13" are. Conversely, I think John Metric's DC Plasma is one of the few top performing cars with stock Warp motors. I guess ur right, technically, but in the spirit of the post context... I figured it was more about a 13" series motor vs twin 9's. . . since his point was about the physical size and fit of each in his application. If this is about the Warp brand vs GE/homebuilts/Burube etc... I guess I missed it.:roll eyes: 



major said:


> That is a bad analogy or comparison IMHO  The electric motor is an energy conversion device; the transmission is a power transformation mechanism. The motor has electric power in and mechanical power out. The transmission has mechanical power in and mechanical power out, albeit at a different ratio of RPM and torque. The two are completely different in function.
> 
> If anything, I would think the motor controller compares to the transmission. It has electric power in and electric power out; just in a different ratio of volts to amperes. Both the transmission and controller transform power (change the ratio of thru/across variables) of the energy flow through the device. Neither converts power or energy from one form to another (except for the proverbial losses as heat).


Yes, ok. . . that makes sense . . but for the guys at the start of this learning curve... it's not such a bad analogy. I think the main point of it is to highlight the message that the the electric motor isn't the source of the energy as it is in an ICE application. I also wanted to point out that one can technically get the same out of multiple smaller motors vs fewer/one larger motor. . . if the gearing is right for the application and the motor does not suffer from over duty. 
I guess those early eve's with no PWM had no transmissions...


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Seriously? You may want to check what is inside a few of the quickest racing EV's. The fastest EV time to date is from Shawn Lawless's Rocket bike, sporting a 13" GE. Dennis Burube's Smoke Screen has probably more quarter mile runs in than all others combined... he runs a 13" GE.
> 
> As you know, the motor in an EV is better compared to the transmission in an ICE. As long as you don't melt it, it will convert your battery power to mechanical power. Two 9" motors have been compared to one 11" motor. Two 11" motors have been compared to one 13" motor. It's all how you gear it and if it can take the battery juice...


Fair enough, however as major stated nobody is using a warp 13 in racing. My point of view was more from cost than anything. If you find and fix up a GE 13" then I can't say it's a bad choice. But I still stand by what I said that BUYING a warp 13 in search of performance is a poor choice, there are far more effective places to put the money.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> I guess those early eve's with no PWM had no transmissions...


Well, battery switching was a control method to lower voltage and multiply current----sortta. And when a starting resistor was used, it would be analogous to slipping a clutch, don't you think?


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

My tuppence worth

For direct drive - 

A Warp 13 has a maximum rpm of - 4,500rpm??
Warp 9's - 8,000rpm??

So you need to gear accordingly - to achieve your maximum speed - 150mph??

The Warp 9's will be much lower geared (45/80) - and for a given motor torque will produce 77% more wheel torque

Given that a warp 9 produces - ~ 25% less torque at a given current
(is that about right??)
Two of them will produce
0.75 x 1.77 x 2 = 2.6 times as much wheel torque as a single Warp 13 at the same current

I reckon its a no brainer - 2 nines beat a 13


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> You may have noted the op compared the twin Warp9's in the Zombie and DC Plasma. As you know the zombie siamese 9s are about as close to Warps as the GE 13" are. Conversely, I think John Metric's DC Plasma is one of the few top performing cars with stock Warp motors. I guess ur right, technically, but in the spirit of the post context... I figured it was more about a 13" series motor vs twin 9's. . . since his point was about the physical size and fit of each in his application. If this is about the Warp brand vs GE/homebuilts/Burube etc... I guess I missed it.:roll eyes:


The White Zombie uses modified Impulse 9 motors, not WarP9. And you were comparing 13 inch motors significantly different from a stock Warp 13. I think it is important to note also that it isn't only the ingredients in the recipe, but also the skill of the chef that determines the quality of cake. 

A few years ago I witnessed a run of a twin 13 inch twin Zilla 2K dragster. Impressive ingredients; poor results.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Duncan said:


> My tuppence worth
> 
> For direct drive -
> 
> ...


Even the Warp 11HV has a recommended MAXIMUM rpm of 5500 as per George Hamstra. The warp 9 is the same. Gearing would not be as drastically different between the two motors. I pushed my 11hv to 6000rpm a few times but that's it. I don't think a Warp 9 would produce significant torque at 8000rpm unless the motor voltage was way over 200v which would destroy the motor on another level.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

rwaudio said:


> Even the Warp 11HV has a recommended MAXIMUM rpm of 5500 as per George Hamstra. The warp 9 is the same. Gearing would not be as drastically different between the two motors. I pushed my 11hv to 6000rpm a few times but that's it. I don't think a Warp 9 would produce significant torque at 8000rpm unless the motor voltage was way over 200v which would destroy the motor on another level.


Hi rwaudio

8,000rpm v 4,500rpm
or
7,000rpm v 5,500rpm
Still gives a 27% increase in gearing and increase in torque

I suppose it would not be too difficult to make a 13 inch motor with 7,000rpm capability - but until then the 9 inches do have an advantage


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## RGad (Sep 14, 2013)

Hi Everyone,


Thanks for your help. Now that winter is upon us, I have been learning and planning in the background over the past few months.


*MOTOR & CONTROLLER*

I *think* I have most of the important decisions made - or at least I have settled on the motor & controller. An 11” motor (likely a WarP 11) seems to be the best fit for my application. It produces copious amounts of torque (more information reposted from a thread below), and avoids stacking/combining multiple motors, which seems troublesome for a first project (thanks for that advice). 

In Crodriver’s build, he mentioned that a standard WarP 11 might offer more low-end torque than the WarP 11HV, and since I don’t intend to have a high voltage battery (or need high speed/RPMs), I am fairly confident that the WarP 11 will suit, controlled by the Z2K HV or Z2K EHV.

That said, I thought I would re-post some WarP 11 torque figures I found in another thread from Geometric that took some digging to uncover, but I found extremely helpful in landing on the single 11” motor option:




GeoMetric said:


> Just received reliable info from the man himself!





GeoMetric said:


> __________________________________________
> 
> Re: WarP 11 - actual test data at 72 volts: (doubling voltage will double the RPMs at which the torque is produced)
> 
> ...




I’ve seen some banter about ‘chrome-plating’ DC motors, but no technical details on it. Is there any actual performance benefit in doing this, or is it purely cosmetic? Is it expensive?


*TRANSMISSION VS. DIRECT DRIVE*

As for whether or not a transmission (or in this case, a transaxle) would be useful, I spent a lot of time researching options that can absorb high torque. Here is some useful information that will hopefully be of some use for Porsche owners in the future:

Porsche 901 transaxle design torque rating = 138 ft-lbs; weight = 119 lbs
Porsche 915 transaxle torque = 275 ft-lbs; weight = 123 lbs
Porsche 930 transaxle torque = 326 ft-lbs; weight = 117 lbs
Porsche G50/50 transaxle torque rating = 300+ ft-lbs; weight = 146 lbs - 156 lbs
http://rennsportsystems.com/letstalk-2/4-how-to-make-your-porsche-faster-transmissions-clutchessscluct/

The 901 transaxle in my 912 is known to break teeth in and around 230 ft-lbs, and has a cantilevered first gear, making it a fairly weak long-term candidate (not that 1st gear would be that useful). On the other side of the spectrum, the strongest Porsche transaxles (G50/50 or G50/52) sell for $6,000+, and require further modification to absorb high torque (although when modified, I have heard of them taking up to 1,000 ft-lbs). I suspect it would be very difficult to integrate a G50/50 into an old 912, and the additional weight penalty and complexity isn’t attractive.

As Dan pointed out, a Ford 8.8” rear IRS is a great and cost-effective option (as the independent rear suspension set-up can be maintained). I've also learned that these can weigh as little as 70 lbs, which would shave some weight.

Apparently, drivetrainshop.com states that their 8.8" diffs can push up to 1,360 ft-lbs output. That might work (and at a fraction of the cost of a G50 transaxle). Thanks for the great recommendation Dan!

In order to ‘use’ the torque, the rear axles will need replacing, regardless of whether I paid for a G50/52, or went Direct Drive, so the direct cost comparison is really G50/50 vs. Ford 8.8" rear diff.

In considering all of this, I am thinking of a two-stage build.
1) Year 1: Use my existing 901 transaxle to find the right gear ratios for Direct Drive (restrict Zilla 2K to low amps)
2) Year 2: Install Ford 8.8” IRS and new axles w/appropriate gear ratios (likely 4+)


*BATTERIES*

In addition to that, I’ve done some research on batteries, and am leaning towards 56 x CALB 180s, namely for their 10C pulse rating, and simplicity (thanks again RW). I doubt an exotic battery pack is warranted for a daily driver, (although I *do* appreciate the thought of Amphaulic LiPo-seduction, as impractical as it may be). The challenge with 56 CALB 180s is whether or not voltage sag and/or back EMF will prevent me from reaching 60 MPH in good time. Any thoughts on this aspect?

I was hoping to incorporate some inspiration from Tesla, and rebuild the floor of the car as a battery carrier (batteries lying horizontally between two insulated floor plates) to give the car a low centre of gravity, better balance, and more useable space. The instruction manual from EVTV advises NOT to put the CALBs upside down, and mentions that the manufacturer does not recommend lying batteries on their side/back, without known justification. Does anyone know why the CALB 180s shouldn’t be laid down flat horizontally in installations?


So in summary, the remaining questions are:
1) Does chrome plating a DC motor modify performance, or is it purely cosmetic?
2) Is there any known reason why CALB 180s can’t be positioned on their back horizontally? (Ventilation?)
3) At what RPM should I expect voltage sag and back-EMF to significantly affect performance with this set-up?
4) Is there anything obviously wrong with what I’ve come up with so far?

Thanks again everyone for your guidance!


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## kerrymann (Feb 17, 2011)

You project sounds cool. I am still kicking myself for not picking up a 912 roller for 4k over the summer. Coming in late to the party but wanted to say what you have proposed is the path I went down for my Miata so I though I would add my $0.02. Last year I started simple with a single 9" and the transmission this allowed me to play with gear ratios and get data of pulls. This fall I upgraded to dual warp 9's with direct drive and I am upgrading to a 320V pack for my Soliton1. This gives me 160V (without sag) to both motors and 900-1000amps. I went dual because the layout works great in the trans tunnel. For rear motor I agree the single motor is the way to go (I am actually putting a single 9" in a 69 bug vert this weekend).

As others have said the battery is going to be your real limiting factor. I had considered the CA quite a lot and am just about to pull the trigger on some Enerdel power modules. The CA is a stiff battery with a great cost but per the manufacturer's website the CAs are rated a 3C not 10C. Can you run them higher? Certainly. But what will it do to the pack? To my knowledge nobody has done high current life cycle testing on the CA cells. If someone has please let me know! I am sure if you do a few 10-15 second pulls you won't notice a decrease in capacity or life. However if you are like me, and you think of on ramps as fun then you are going to be doing much more often. It could be that CALB is just being really conservative with their specs or it could be they are there for a reason. It comes down to a calculated (or uncalculated because there is no real data) risk.

For me the extra cost/kwh of the enerdels was worth a 15C discharge rating, passive cooling and made in the US. But my goal is different from drag racing. In 1/4mile Drag racing you do one 10-15 second pull (or 9 seconds if you are John) and then let the pack rest for a few minutes. I autocross my miata and will start road racing it next summer. There you are either on the throttle or on the brakes. That is a 50% duty cycle for at least 5 minutes and heat is your enemy.

Right now I still have the stock rear end in my Miata but this winter will be upgrading as I need a LSD to put the power down. I will be going to a Ford 7.5 or 8.8 or a custom RX7 set-up I have my eye on. The 7.5 is lighter and will take abuse of a mildly tuned LS1 but the 8.8 is really bullet proof at the expense of 30lbs. Another one to look at is the gertrag diffs from the Cadillacs. 

Have fun!
Kerry


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## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

RGad said:


> So in summary, the remaining questions are:
> 1) Does chrome plating a DC motor modify performance, or is it purely cosmetic?


Cosmetic. The only easy change you can make to a motor is brushes and brush holders. Replacing the lamination materials with thinner ones and exotic materials can reduce iron losses at higher RPM operation but other stuff needs to be done first before that will help much. With large motors the usual first issues are problems with stuff moving around and going out of balance. The windings all need gluing and these days they tie stuff in place with Kevlar. The other expensive change would be replacing the copper with silver.



RGad said:


> 2) Is there any known reason why CALB 180s can’t be positioned on their back horizontally? (Ventilation?)


The only direction that I know would be a bad idea would be upside down. The excess electrolyte will plug the vents. Some of the vendors tell you only upright. Others tell you any direction but upside down. Since they are all made pretty much the same way it makes no sense. A good example of a cell that would work under the floor is the Gen 3 GBS 200AH cells.



RGad said:


> 3) At what RPM should I expect voltage sag and back-EMF to significantly affect performance with this set-up?


Without seeing dyno plots this is tough to say. Best guess would be the back emf would come on around 3500 to 4000 rpm unless you have significant sag.



RGad said:


> 4) Is there anything obviously wrong with what I’ve come up with so far?


56 cells at 1000 amps will give you good performance. Probably better than 6 sec 0-60 if your shifts are good.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

major said:


> The White Zombie uses modified Impulse 9 motors, not WarP9.


Yes, I know. I used HIS quote to demonstrate my assumption that he was more interested in the size vs the type.



major said:


> you were comparing 13 inch motors significantly different from a stock Warp 13. I think it is important to note also that it isn't only the ingredients in the recipe, but also the skill of the chef that determines the quality of cake.
> 
> A few years ago I witnessed a run of a twin 13 inch twin Zilla 2K dragster. Impressive ingredients; poor results.


It is interesting though, on both sides .. stock vs custom about the results. The fastest door slammer right now being Metric's Miata running stock dual Warp 9's. Additionally, the fastest 1/4 mile times on record with two wheels and four wheels both did so with 13" motors IIRC.


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

Hi everyone .
Im new here and on the electric car hobby, I have a question for anybody who can answer it. I thank you in advance.
I bought a used warp 13 motor very inexpensive.
and I haven't found any info on how to wire it to a 1231cxxx curtis controller,
Im going to installed on a 2001 Mercedes Benz S500. 
the motor has 8 poles to connect the cables, it has them on the rear face of the motor 4 on each side of the rear face, is 2 shaft motor, it has 4 sets of brushes 2 brushes each, and the brushes are connected on the opposite side by an internal wire 2 and 2, if any one knows how to wire this Beast I will appreciate , Thank you and Have a nice day.
J.J.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GUAYUVIN40 said:


> Hi everyone .
> Im new here and on the electric car hobby, I have a question for anybody who can answer it. I thank you in advance.
> I bought a used warp 13 motor very inexpensive.
> and I haven't found any info on how to wire it to a 1231cxxx curtis controller,
> ...


8 poles? Please post photos of that. And I don't think that Curtis will last long.


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

why not?
you never seen one ? 
96-144v is what the curtis gives. I dont want to race nobody I want to drive to NY on one charge.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

GUAYUVIN40 said:


> why not?
> you never seen one ?
> 96-144v is what the curtis gives. I dont want to race nobody I want to drive to NY on one charge.


You come and ask for help. I probably can help you if you give me a chance. I have seen photos of a WarP 13 and do not believe they have 8 terminals. So I want to see what you are talking about.

And the Curtis controllers have shown to be somewhat fragile. Pairing it with a larger than normal motor may stress it. I don't think I have ever seen anybody use one with larger than a 9 inch motor.

As far as driving to NY on one charge, we could offer opinions on that if we knew the distance and vehicle.

You can be cooperative and elaborate or figure it out by yourself.

Nevermind. Here is a link showing the drawing for the WarP 13 which includes the wiring diagram. It has six terminals. And the manual for the Curtis controller will have wiring diagrams and instructions. http://www.ev-propulsion.com/warp13details.html 

Good luck.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

Hi major,

Not to hijack, but how can a large motor overstress the controller? Higher resistance?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Frank said:


> Hi major,
> 
> Not to hijack, but how can a large motor overstress the controller? Higher resistance?


Not sure about this. But I was thinking lower resistance and more importantly, lower inductance.


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## Frank (Dec 6, 2008)

?? Bigger motor has lower resistance/inductance or am I confused again?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Frank said:


> ?? Bigger motor has lower resistance/inductance or am I confused again?


Yes and yes 

Motors come in all different sizes and designs. So no blanket statements apply in all situations. But generally speaking, larger motors for similar applications (voltage and speed) will have lower resistance and I think lower inductance. So for instance, if you took a WarP9 and a WarP13 and locked the rotors and put the same battery across the terminals, the 13 incher would draw more Amps, or so I believe


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

major said:


> Yes and yes
> 
> Motors come in all different sizes and designs. So no blanket statements apply in all situations. But generally speaking, larger motors for similar applications (voltage and speed) will have lower resistance and I think lower inductance. So for instance, if you took a WarP9 and a WarP13 and locked the rotors and put the same battery across the terminals, the 13 incher would draw more Amps, or so I believe










I hope you can see it is just like mine is 4 more connections on the other side 4 set of brushes.


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

GUAYUVIN40 said:


> I hope you can see it is just like mine is 4 more connections on the other side 4 set of brushes.


http://www.evsource.com/tls_warp13.php. http://www.evsource.com/images/netgain/warp13/indexpage_13.jpg


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

http://www.evsource.com/images/netgain/warp13/indexpage_13.jpg


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Here is the current WarP13. 6 terminals.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Here is the pic from you.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

The wiring diagrams and drawings all reflect the 6 terminal version. I suggest you contact the dealer from whom you purchased the motor, or Netgain. I could figure it out if I was there, but not over the interweb. You must have an early version or something a bit different.


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

I did , waiting for an answer. thank you


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## hostage (Aug 2, 2007)

Guayuvin40 - This is NOT a WarP 13! Major is correct (as usual) that WarP 13's have 6 terminals (2 for armature, 4 for fields - switchable between series and series/parallel fields) I suspect that 8 terminals "could" mean all fields and brush sets are accessible, but it would be very difficult to determine proper wiring without a hands-on the motor. You probably don't want to wire it wrong... Wish I could help more, perhaps a forklift repair company is nearby and could take a quick look at it...


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

Thanks for all the info. I find out by the dealer that they use this motors with 8 connec. for racing, George from the dealer even told me that the person who could help me was major at DIY, because they don't Race no more, 
I know my motor is from a forklift, but it has the same type of brushes and gage wiring. and for those who don't know it is a WARP 13 with 8 Connectors many companies sale them.
Thanks again. I will post it when I find out how to connected.


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## hostage (Aug 2, 2007)

It took hours of searching, but like they say, a picture is worth a thousand+ words... Here is an image of a similar motor that should be intuitively obvious... This "MAY" work for your motor, but without looking at your specific motor, this is the best I can come up with! Looking similar and being similar may not always work...


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## GUAYUVIN40 (Sep 19, 2014)

Thanks again.


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