# Honda IMA motor?



## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

why not just get the controller from a junk yard car... should be much cheaper than buying a new ~10kW compatible controller with Regen somewhere.


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## Kobushi (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't see how the factory controlled could work to control this motor in an EV application. It integrates with the engine managment, and operates as an assist, varying it's power based on throttle input and load conditions.
I suppose it might be possible to use all of the electronics from the car and then trick them somehow... but that would be pretty combersome I think.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

yes... but the work has already been done by other Insight Enthusiasts.

MIMA ( Manual IMA ) ( free schematic of most basic unit is here ) ... or pay $1,070 here , for a pre-built and tested unit with more features ... allows you to edit / input your own signal for Assist or Regen requests.

The MDM ( Motor Drive Module ) controls the power flow to the IMA motor from the OEM 144V NiMH battery pack.

The ECM ( Engine Control Module ) sends a signal to the MDM for how much regen or assist the ECM wants , based on engine load, rpms , etc...

The BCM ( Battery control module ) monitors the OEM NiMH battery condition and sends signals to the MDM... if the ECM asks for Assist ( up to 10kW ) or Regen ( up to 5 kW ), but the BCM is sending a signal that the battery is not in a good condition to do so ... then the MDM doesn't provide the Assist or Regen that the ECM requested.

The BCM is being better and better understood all the time... a nice guy in the UK ( see here ) has done some good work on altering his... he now runs a Grid Charged 40Ah LiFePO4 battery pack instead of the OEM 6.5Ah NiMH battery.

So... with the given work that other Gen-I Honda Insight Enthusiasts have already done and publicly posted ... you can build your own MIMA-L type circuit to control the MDM and control the 10kW of a Assist and 5kW of Regen as you wish... and with Peter's work on the BCM you can use any battery pack you want... and any other BMS ( battery management system ) you want.

So in a nut shell... one could use a junk yard 10kW IMA motor and junk yard MDM ... it might end up being cheaper than buying a 10kW motor that compares in terms of power , size , weight , regen , etc.

As more and more HEVs out there go to junk yards this will continue to be a larger and larger source of great EV parts for those with some of the technical skills needed to make it work.... it won't be as 'easy' as some other system component options... but it is an option for those who are interested.


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## Kobushi (Aug 5, 2009)

I was aware of the MIMA, but I was not aware of the the BCM work you link here. That really makes this a viable idea...
I wonder if the MIMA is capable of controlling the regen without an ECM at all, or if it would require something further to completely cut out the ECM?
I will see if I can get ahold of Mr Dabrowski and get some input from him. Used to talk to him some at insightcentral but I doubt he remembers me. He's pretty busy with his HEV classes now I imagine but he's a nice guy so maybe he can find time to give me some input.

I could maybe even use 2 MDMs, one MIMA, an one BCM in order to power 2 of these motors together... 

As for costs yes, I currently have a 03 Civic Hybrid IMA (slightly larger than the Insight's though) that I got for $20 from a wrecked car. However it is not a complete unit, only the rotor, housing, and stator, there are some retained plates and etc that are missing but not a big deal if it were being used in an EV app. A little careful shopping could yield some very inexepensive high tech components.

Thanks for your input IamIan.


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## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

Mike D is a good guy... he has always had fair trades if I wanted help with something... I could help him with something else in exchange... and 9 times out of 10 the other things would end up being fun anyway  ... but you are correct he does get buisy with projects and stuff... and time is often in short supply... of course some people just pay him for work... like installing MIMA for them... building laser systems for them ...etc... but you will have to talk with him about the details one way or the other.

Mike knows MIMA far better than I do... but as I understand it for this to work the way you want it to work... MIMA is already doing the Assist and regen requests ... you might have to check some of the other MDM signals... some of which may or may not need to be replicated... off hand without looking much more into it... I couldn't tell you off the top of my head.

If you seriously are considering do this ... you might want to go get a copy of the Electrical Trouble Shooting Guide Suplement to the Shop Service Manual... It has lots of schematic details that could help you iron this out.

This route will not be as plug and play as just buying new EV motors and controlers would be... so be prepaired for rolling up your sleeves if you truely want to go down this path.

Also keep in mind the Junk Yard Prices will vary greatly from time to time and Yard to Yard ... even after youget details worked out... you will still want to look around for good deals on the parts ... just like that $20 part you got... is a great deal for what it is... but you will need other such things in order to try and get the whoel thing to work.

FYI... I'm the same IamIan from InsightCentral as well.


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## Mike D EV (Sep 11, 2007)

The stock Honda Inverter is operated by signals coming from the MCM. The signals are PWM simulated 3 phase sinewaves. At low RPM, the signals are PWM switched sine waves. As the rpm increases, they change to simple on off pulses still maintaining the 120 degree phase relationship.
Since all the power electronics are in the power inverter, the cheapest solution would be to develop a driver for the inverter that would replace the MCM.
I have 2 of the IMA motors, and hope to mount one on bearings so it can run stand alone, and hope to develop the required driver.
The same principal would also allow using the Prius synergy drive as a power plant for an electric car, a simple hack of the planetary drive will allow both MG1 and MG2 to work together.
http://www.99mpg.com/Projectcars/evinsight/
Kelly controls has a 3 phase brushless controller which may be able to drive the IMA motor directly:
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=23_56&products_id=444
Mike


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## iak78612 (Jan 2, 2017)

Im interested in using this motor for a heavy lift drone. The motor caught my attention because of the form factor, and 15 kw version (2nd and 3rd) gen would be the perfect amout of power. 

I was unsure about the RPM ratings and weight (most important) of the motor. Anyone have this info?

Thanks!


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

iak78612 said:


> I was unsure about the RPM ratings and weight (most important) of the motor. Anyone have this info?


Not specifically, but the IMA unit runs at engine speed, which in a Honda car would be no more than 7000 rpm. It seems reasonable to assume that it would need to turn at least 2000 rpm to 3000 rpm to develop maximum rated power.

Since it is designed specifically to match the gas engine's operating speed, it seems unlikely that it is optimal for power-to-weight ratio.


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## iak78612 (Jan 2, 2017)

Thanks for the reply Brian. 

Any other motor reccomendations? I was shooting for around 20 kw's of power / motor. I think one of the Prius motor / generators are rated at 23 Kw's.


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## brian_ (Feb 7, 2017)

iak78612 said:


> I was shooting for around 20 kw's of power / motor. I think one of the Prius motor / generators are rated at 23 Kw's.


The Prius (or any Synergy hybrid) has two motor/generators (MG): MG1 and the engine are the two inputs to a planetary power splitter/combiner, so the speed of MG1 controls the engine speed. That means that MG1 has a wide operating speed. Just from memory, 23 kW sounds about right for MG1, but the actual rating depends on the vehicle (which generation of Prius, or various other Toyota/Lexus models). There's a similar motor/generator in any power-splitter hybrid, which includes some Ford and GM models.

One challenge with any of these hybrid motors is that they form part of an integrated transmission system, so they don't have their own housing.


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