# Erx



## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I think I am going to take the plunge. Hopefully, if it looks good, I will be purchasing a 1986 Honda CRX HF tomorrow. A bit scary, but I have been thinking about this for at least a year if not longer. I have virtually no mechanical or elctrical engineering experience, but have a friend who may help me out a bit. I will definitely contact other CRX converters for any info I can get as well as post any questions I may have here. Here is what I am planning for the moment.

1986 Honda CRX HF (1725 lbs)
144-160VDC system
30 mile round trip commute on Los Angeles Freeways (70mph)
Impulse 9 motor (If it will fit in a Rex) Brushless motor?
Zilla 1KLV controller (maybe new Netgain controller?? Anyone tried one yet?)
(40) 100AH LiFePo4 battery pack (Not sure on AH yet-charge at work?)
Clutchless?
BMS?
Charger?
Budget - Hope to keep it under 12K. Less if I can charge at work

I am open to any and all suggestions. As you can see my plans are pretty much wide open at this point. The biggest deal for me now is deciding if its worth it to get a large battery pack and charge once a day or a smaller pack and charge twice a day. Do I really need a battery pack to last for 12, 16, 20 years?

Anyways, I am excited to be starting this journey and look forward to discussing as much as I can with everyone here.

Dave


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Quick question. Why are TS LFP Batteries listed as 4.25V instead of 3.6 like SE Batts? Do they all still function at 3.2V or do the TS Batts function at a higher voltage?


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

The CRX is a great conversion candidate. Very light and aero. The 90-91 SI model
was my first pick for a conversion chassis but I couldn't find a cheap enough one that wasn't a total wreck.

100AH at 120-ish volts (12KwH or so) of litium will easily give you 30 miles at 70mph while weighing only a few hundred pounds.

If you slow it down a bit, 50+ miles is a distinct possibility on that pack. With good tires and alignment and some simple body mods (air dam, etc) you should be below 200wh/mile battery-to-wheels at 55mph.

a 9" motor should fit in the car, but if it doesn't, you will still get good performance with an 8" with a lightweight car and a lightweight battery. The netgain "transwarp" is a 9" motor designed to fit where an ADC 8" does so that is a possibility if length is a problem on a normal 9".

Again with the light weight (since you are avoiding nearly a 1000 lbs of lead) even a pretty modest controller like a curtis will give you plenty of oomph. Logisystems, zilla, soliton all have 1000 amp controllers in your voltage range, but with the 100AH lithiums you will want to limit battery current with such a high power controller. 

FWIW with my MR2 full of 1200lbs of lead, I basically never exceed 300A accelerating. that is 3C on a 100AH battery; 3C is a safe maximum discharge rate on most of the chinese lithiums out there, though they are getting better. So a car like you are proposing which would weigh probably 800 to 1000lbs less than mine would be able to do quite a bit on "only" 300 battery amps.

The voltage difference between SE and TS and any of the other ones has to do with the slightly different chemistries of the batteries. Build the pack using the nominal voltage rating of the batteries you select and make sure to get the regulators/shunts that are correct for your battery chemistry.

Keep the clutch. That is good policy with a DC conversion that isn't using a monster controller and high amp batteries. You can always convert to clutchless later, but for first timers its good to keep. (but if you go to an AC motor with higher RPM ratings, you could probably lose it)

Manzanita micro makes high end (and pricey) regulators and chargers that work with thunder sky batteries. The battery manufacturers all offer regulation/charging solutions as well and lots of other BMSes in various stages of development or production are out there.

Good luck.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for the great reply madderscience. I have been thinking I might be able to use a Kelly or Curtis, but wasn't sure. Since seeing your post I looked at the EV calculator on evconvert.com and looked at what battery and motor amps I would need. I have a 3% grade for 2 miles on my commute. It says 270 motor amps and 206 battery amps at 70mph. Would I need a controller that has a continuous rating of 300amps?


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

"The netgain "transwarp" is a 9" motor designed to fit where an ADC 8" does so that is a possibility if length is a problem on a normal 9"." 


Just a little correction: The TranswarP is a regular 9" with a GM Turbo 400 tailshaft attached. The Impulse 9 is a shorter version of the WarP9.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

Doh!!!!!!!!!!!


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I knew what you meant.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Quick update. The ERX is in the back yard. Let the pain begin!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

check clearance to axle mounts and CV joints before you order your 9", you may not have clearance! I know in my Swift, the 8" diameter is all I can get in without major mod to rear-center axle bearing/engine mount.

As a sidenote, the curtis 1221, or 1231 would pull enough amps with 120v to make a pretty perky ride, and prevent you from lead-footing your Li batteries to death.  The 1221 will pull 400 constant if you have a good heatsink, and since the Li constant pull is 3C, which is 300amps with 100ah cells, you might NOT wanna go with a higher capacity controller.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Would someone be interested in going over the numbers I am using in the ev calculator? I am trying to figure out how much continuous motor current I need from a controller to take my car up a 3% grade at 70mph. I am not sure if the formulas in the calculator are correct or if I am possibly putting wrong data in. Here it is:

Vehicle - I choose 1990 Honda CRX SI to start then change the values based on what I have found on various CRX pages as far as gear ratio for my 1986 CRX HF.
Drag Coeff - .3
Frontal Area - 17 Initial Curb Wt - 1725
Drive effcncy - .91
1st Gear Ratio - 10.56
2nd Gear Ratio - 5.36
3rd Gear Ratio - 3.35
4th Gear Ratio - 2.67
5th Gear Ratio - 2.24
Wind Factor - 0Motor - Warp 9 - The only thing I change here is RPMs - I plan on using the Impulse 9
RPMs - 5500

Battery - TS 100AH
Voltage - 24
Weight - 53
Puekerts Exp - 1.056
Puekerts Cap - 109
Resistance - 0.006

Controller - Zilla 1K - I don't change anything here

Adjustments
Voltage - 144
# Batt Strings - 1
% DOD - 70
Charger Weight - 20
lbs Removed - 400
Misc Added lbs - 400
Incline - 3
Wind - 0
Tire Section - 185
Tire Aspect - 60
Tire Rim - 14
Rolling Resistance - 0.01
Brake/Steer Resistance - 0.003
Kwh Rate - 0.12
Commute Miles - 30It says 265 motor amps at 70mph in 3rd gear. I put a 3 in for Incline but am not sure if that is grade percentage or not.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

these estimators only get 'close'.  a rough gut feel is yeah.... probably around 300amps at 70mph up a gentle hill with a 120v pack....

By the way, the 'nominal' voltage for the TS cells is 3.2v, so a nominal 120v pack is 38 cells. The 4.25v/cell number is the MAX before you damage the cell during charging. I think the TS settles in at about 3.4v at rest when fully charged, and should not be taken below 3.0v or you risk reduced cycle life.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> check clearance to axle mounts and CV joints before you order your 9", you may not have clearance! I know in my Swift, the 8" diameter is all I can get in without major mod to rear-center axle bearing/engine mount.
> 
> As a sidenote, the curtis 1221, or 1231 would pull enough amps with 120v to make a pretty perky ride, and prevent you from lead-footing your Li batteries to death.  The 1221 will pull 400 constant if you have a good heatsink, and since the Li constant pull is 3C, which is 300amps with 100ah cells, you might NOT wanna go with a higher capacity controller.


Thanks for the info. I will definitely check out the clearance. I was curious if I could get a 9" in there. I need to check the other CRX builds on evalbum and see what motors they used.

As far as the controller/batts situation, I am thinking about switching to 120V and SE 130AH batteries which go 4C and will give me some more range. This would give me some headroom as far as current pull but will cost me more.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So I wanted to ask the community your thoughts on building a cheaper smaller system for the first time and then later upgrading to a bigger system. My thoughts on this are that the main components of motor and controller have fairly stable pricing, but the battery market is changing so maybe I go with a smaller investment now and wait out the battery market to see if cheaper lithiums come out or even these CNT Lead Acids.

What do you think? Is it a waste of time and money to build small and then go bigger later?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I would say you need to pick your target voltage, motor, controller, dc-dc, charger... and then decide between Lead-acid and LiFePO4 given your range requirement and ability to pay more up front, or not, for longer life. I would say a MINIMUM voltage is 96v, and you'll be happier at 120v, and have even better performance/range at 144v but pay a lot more for motor/controller. 

Given current costs and similar ah rating (around 100ah at 1-hr rate), Li costs 'about' twice as much but should last 3 times as long. So, cheaper over the 10 year life, but more up front.

If your range requirement is over 30-40 miles, your decision is made and you have to go Li with cells larger than 100ah.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I would say you need to pick your target voltage, motor, controller, dc-dc, charger... and then decide between Lead-acid and LiFePO4 given your range requirement and ability to pay more up front, or not, for longer life. I would say a MINIMUM voltage is 96v, and you'll be happier at 120v, and have even better performance/range at 144v but pay a lot more for motor/controller.
> 
> Given current costs and similar ah rating (around 100ah at 1-hr rate), Li costs 'about' twice as much but should last 3 times as long. So, cheaper over the 10 year life, but more up front.
> 
> If your range requirement is over 30-40 miles, your decision is made and you have to go Li with cells larger than 100ah.


I guess I should define my terms of smaller system better. I am toying with the idea of a 72v system with a 60AH LFP pack and take surface streets to work(16 miles) and then charge there. My original system plan was 144V with 100 or 130AH LFP pack and freeway speeds. Both would get the job done, but the former would take me longer to commute and the latter would cost a bit more. The general question though is whether anyone thinks it is worth my time building a smaller system and getting the EV grin for less money now, and then converting it to a larger system later when/if battery prices have come down.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> I guess I should define my terms of smaller system better. I am toying with the idea of a 72v system with a 60AH LFP pack


no, bad idea and will takes lots of time to go back and re-do things as well as very disappointing performance to start with. Just DO it based on what's available today, and build another one if things change a lot!


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Quick update and question-

I have decided on a 144V system and 60AH CALB(Sky Energy)LFP batteries. This will give me round trip range (30 miles) on surface streets as well as one way freeway speed range. I have put in a request to charge at work. I don't think it will be a problem.

I am getting ready to purchase materials and wondered what specs I should look for on a multimeter for testing components etc. Will a $20 volt meter work or do I need something more along the lines of a Fluke?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> Quick update and question-
> 
> I have decided on a 144V system and 60AH CALB(Sky Energy)LFP batteries. This will give me round trip range (30 miles) on surface streets as well as one way freeway speed range. I have put in a request to charge at work. I don't think it will be a problem.
> 
> I am getting ready to purchase materials and wondered what specs I should look for on a multimeter for testing components etc. Will a $20 volt meter work or do I need something more along the lines of a Fluke?


I would suggest you save a few more pennies and go with AT LEAST 100ah cells so that you are a little more conservative with the depth of discharge for longer life AND better able to handle higher max amp draw without shortening life. Even at 144v, you are going to be running continuous over 200 at anything close to highway speed. You'll be a lot better off with 100ah batteries. If you are going slim on the batteries, you can save a lot of money and go with a Curtis 1221 (400 amp max) controller, but may wanna step down to 120v.... A 'zilla will just be too tempting and you'll munch the batteries if you start pulling 5C-10C. You can save another bundle (and weight) if you go with an 8" instead of 9" motor, which would still be a lot of fun in the Erx. All this in consideration, you may get a better balance of ah, max amps, and cost if you go with 120v worth of 100aH cells, a curtis 1221 or 1231 and an 8" motor.

I think a $20 multimeter is probably 'fine' as most of the testing really required is 'yup, it's on/off' or the RELATIVE differences between cells, so absolute accuracy is probably not worth lab grade metering.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I would suggest you save a few more pennies and go with AT LEAST 100ah cells so that you are a little more conservative with the depth of discharge for longer life AND better able to handle higher max amp draw without shortening life. Even at 144v, you are going to be running continuous over 200 at anything close to highway speed. You'll be a lot better off with 100ah batteries. If you are going slim on the batteries, you can save a lot of money and go with a Curtis 1221 (400 amp max) controller, but may wanna step down to 120v.... A 'zilla will just be too tempting and you'll munch the batteries if you start pulling 5C-10C. You can save another bundle (and weight) if you go with an 8" instead of 9" motor, which would still be a lot of fun in the Erx. All this in consideration, you may get a better balance of ah, max amps, and cost if you go with 120v worth of 100aH cells, a curtis 1221 or 1231 and an 8" motor.
> 
> I think a $20 multimeter is probably 'fine' as most of the testing really required is 'yup, it's on/off' or the RELATIVE differences between cells, so absolute accuracy is probably not worth lab grade metering.


I am thinking about the Impulse 8 instead of the 9, but need to get the ICE out to take some serious measurements. I have thought of going 120V and using 90AH TS Lithiums. That gives me 270 continuous amps. Even with me in it, my car will be less than 2100lbs and has a good CD, so that helps the amp draw quite a bit. Also, I have decided to go with the Open ReVolt DIY controller with 700amp rating. That saves me over $1000 right there.

Thanks for the replies dt. It seems everyone here is looking out for everyone else's best interest.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ooohhh, a DIY controller! I would be scared silly to try that; I'm way more comfortable with the mechanical side.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

General update. Started to pull the ICE this weekend. A buddy of mine knows how to do everything and he said he can make me an adapter plate. Serious savings. Everything is detached from the motor except the drive axle. I am getting jack stands this week and hopefully next Sunday we can pull the engine out.

Also, after many searches and discussions here I think I will end up going with 144V and (45) 100AH CALB batteries. It's going to cost a bit more than I wanted to spend, but I think it will make a better freeway speed EV then my original plan. The only thing that concerns me about the CALB batteries is the strapping. I think James from EVcomponents said they were going to talk to them about using a system more like TS has on their batteries.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> ...can make me an adapter plate.


There are some really good ones out there, and some that 'didn't work out'. If your buddy really is a good machinist and you have access to a nice mill.... go for it!



octagondd said:


> ...going with 144V and (45) 100AH CALB batteries. ...better freeway speed EV


absolutely!


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## gskellig (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm doing basically the same conversion in an MR2. I want to keep mine a little cheaper but I don't think that's going to be possible.

I'm following your blog. I have a similar amount of mechanical/electrical experience as you (close to none), so hopefully your conversion will provide some insight for me.

I'll need to look into the DIY controller. $700 for a 144v 700amp controller is some excellent savings even if you have to build it yourself.

Good luck man. I am jealous.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Couldn't work on the car this weekend because of my daughter's birthday party, but I did manage to finish my EV slideshow video. Check it out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkfFFPqRD_M


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> Couldn't work on the car this weekend because of my daughter's birthday party, but I did manage to finish my EV slideshow video. Check it out here:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkfFFPqRD_M



the video is blocked.....


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

That's lame. I have seen plenty of videos up there featuring current bands. There must be a way around this.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am waiting for youtube to resolve my copyright dispute. Until then try this.

http://cid-97b110a57167c720.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/Videos?authkey=vlBcuvRZ*vM$

This probably isn't the best way to go about it, but hopefully it will work for now.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

OK It looks like my EV tribute video is viewable now. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkfFFPqRD_M


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Question for all you battery people out there. What do you think about pulling 250 battery amps for 3-4 minutes with a pack of SE100s? Do you think that would still be in the relatively safe zone or would it harm cycle life?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> OK It looks like my EV tribute video is viewable now. Enjoy!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkfFFPqRD_M


I've only just seen this.

My MR2 is on there!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> Question for all you battery people out there. What do you think about pulling 250 battery amps for 3-4 minutes with a pack of SE100s? Do you think that would still be in the relatively safe zone or would it harm cycle life?


my understanding is that relatively short pulls up to 3C (300amps for 100ah cells) should be fine, but probably not something to do for a 20 minute freeway jaunt.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am finally looking to purchase parts. I probably should have done this a while ago since it will take some time for them to be delivered. I really need some suggestions as to what I need for my build as I don't really know what to get. Here is what I am planning and a list of parts for an EV.

I am building a 144V freeway speed (70mph) EV with the Open ReVolt 700 amp controller. I am planning on purchasing 47 SE 100AH batteries. I have 19.5 inches between the sidewall and the face of my tranny, and I plan on using the clutch. I would like a dual shaft motor so I can add speed sensor or other things in the future. My car weighed about 1725 before I removed the ICE.

Motor - I am hoping an Impulse 9 (17.07 in.)will fit but don't know how wide the adapter plate will end up being. Does the main shaft go into the adapter plate? That saves 1.25 in. if it does. Impulse 8?

Motor Adapter - I guess I will have to find a local machine shop and bring my motor and tranny to them. I have not seen any adapter plates for my car online.

Blower for motor - Needed?

Controller - Open ReVolt 144V 700 amp - I am sure 700 amps is overkill for my build, but it wasn't much more to go from 500 to 700 so I thought I may need it in the future for some reason

Throttle - Curtis PB-6

Speed sensor - Impulse 9 speed Sensor

Main Contactor - (2) Albright SW200's? or 1 Kilovac LEV 200

Reversing Contactor - Do I need this?

Fuses - What do I need?

Battery Charger - Hoping to go with cheap Elcon 1.5Kw or DIY charger. Any thoughts?

Anderson connectors - needed? will they work with Elcon connection? Other quick disconnects?

Battery cable - 2/0? Larger? Will 30-40 feet suffice?

Cable for charger - Can I use the same cable I use for the batteries or go with smaller gauge?

Lugs and crimping tools - ?

Gavin suggests an Inertia switch - Sounds good, what should I get?

DC/DC - Maybe Elcon?

Circuit breaker - ?

Shunts - ?

Amp and Volt Meters - ?

Vacuum Pump - ?

Anything else I am missing?

I am seeking any and all opinions, reviews, experience, etc.

Thank you,
Dave


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> I am finally looking to purchase parts. I probably should have done this a while ago since it will take some time for them to be delivered.


not as long as might think. batteries on a boat from china are the slow part...



octagondd said:


> I really need some suggestions as to what I need for my build as I don't really know what to get.


you could go down the list of a 'standard' kit from one of the wholesalers like kta-ev.com or evolveelectrics.com and fill in a few more details...



octagondd said:


> I am building a 144V freeway speed (70mph) EV with the Open ReVolt 700 amp controller.


sounds fun, but if you pull more than 300 amps for very long with 100ah cells you are begging for short life. you might want to step down a notch and save some money....



octagondd said:


> Motor - I am hoping an Impulse 9 (17.07 in.)will fit but don't know how wide the adapter plate will end up being. Does the main shaft go into the adapter plate? That saves 1.25 in. if it does. Impulse 8?


yes, the main shaft sticks 'in' thru the adaptor plate for MOST cars. I dunno if the flywheel/clutch on your car stick IN to the tranny, but most except subarus do.... so face of motor *probably* is about 1/2" from face of tranny, but you should check for your car. try CANev.com to see if they stock'em.



octagondd said:


> Blower for motor - Needed?


not needed unless you are racing... motors have built in impellers.

Throttle - Curtis PB-6

Speed sensor - Impulse 9 speed Sensor

Main Contactor - (2) Albright SW200's? or 1 Kilovac LEV 200



octagondd said:


> Reversing Contactor - Do I need this?


no



octagondd said:


> Fuses - What do I need?


lots.... big fat one for traction pack, lots for instrumentation, dc-dc, etc



octagondd said:


> Battery Charger - Hoping to go with cheap Elcon 1.5Kw or DIY charger. Any thoughts?


elcon 1500 should be 'ok', but is not adjustable except to select curve. DIY I would be afraid of frying expensive batteries. You have to decide about BMS or not....



octagondd said:


> Anderson connectors - needed? will they work with Elcon connection? Other quick disconnects?


I bought lots of spade connectors so I could yank out my 'component box' without unwiring everything if needed later. You'll need a fair amount of different gauge wire for instruments, 12v stuff, heater, charger, etc.



octagondd said:


> Battery cable - 2/0? Larger? Will 30-40 feet suffice?


2/0 welding cable is great... I bought 50', but had close to 20' left over and I have cable between FLA batteries where you will have bus bars between most....



octagondd said:


> Cable for charger - Can I use the same cable I use for the batteries or go with smaller gauge?


10 ga



octagondd said:


> Lugs and crimping tools - ?


you'll need some for sure... I would rent/buy a big crimper rather than deal with hammer crimper. also heat-shrink, and good quality lugs.



octagondd said:


> Gavin suggests an Inertia switch - Sounds good, what should I get?


the one sold at kta-ev.com is basically the one on most Ford cars to kill the fuel pump. usually in the trunk wheel well if you visit a salvage yard.



octagondd said:


> DC/DC - Maybe Elcon?


yeah.... 400 or 500watt is best. you can get'em various places. China if you can deal with communication, or other wholesalers....



octagondd said:


> Circuit breaker - ?


yes, and add a manual pull w/ choke cable... visit my site to see example



octagondd said:


> Shunts - ?


absolutely for instrumentation.... add to the 'most negative' side. You MAY have to have two, but most instruments would be happy with a 500-50 shunt.



octagondd said:


> Amp and Volt Meters - ?


...pretty handy to keep an eye one. Your preference whether you want digital, needles, etc. There are some pretty good all-in-one gauges now, or separate.... up to you



octagondd said:


> Vacuum Pump - ?


if you have power brakes.... yes. kit from kta is fine... others out there too.



octagondd said:


> Anything else I am missing?


I have a list of my specifics online if you wanna go down the list...


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## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

nice video... love Muse! A bit bummed my EV didn't make the vid, but some have accused me of being a media whore, so....


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks for the great reply dt. I already have the controller and will probably limit it to 400 amps or so. I definitely do not want to fry the pack. I am also thinking about bumping up to the SE 130's. More distance, power and wiggle room, but $2000 more cost. Also, I think I am not going to use BMS, which makes me want to bump up to the 130s.

Anyone else have any thoughts, experiences, recommendations with particular components, suppliers, etc.?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So the endless battery debate continues in my mind and I am ready to order parts, so I need some help deciding what to get.

If you were me, knowing what you know, would you get:

A. 44 TS 100Ah - 141V - 14Kw - 225a cont. - 5000 [email protected]% - approx. $6000
B. 44 SE 100Ah - 145V - 14.5Kw - 325a cont. - 3000 [email protected]% - approx. $6700
C. 36 SE 130Ah - 119V - 15.4Kw - 400a cont. - 3000 [email protected]% - approx. $7200
D. 36 TS 160Ah - 115V - 18.4Kw - 360a cont. - 5000 [email protected]% - approx. $7700

I guess I am just looking for personal experience with either make or model and whether you think the cycle life will be good. I know there isn't an incredible amount of data on this out there yet, but I guess I am afraid of ordering A or B and not getting power or cycle life for the money. Can anyone put those fears to rest?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So it looks like I am going with choice C at this point which is SE 130Ah batteries. I may go with 40 of them though so the cost will be about $8000 with shipping.

Next thought; My car will be less than 2300 lbs with me in it when done. Should I get the Vacuum braking system and use the power brakes, or upgrade the brakes and just go manual? I will be traveling on the freeway so I may want to err on the side of caution and get the vacuum system, but if it is overkill, then why purchase and install it.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

with brakes, always err on the side of caution! even my dinky Swift was stock with power brakes at 1900#, so with FLA at 2400# the vacuum is pretty much a given for quick stops.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I made my order with evolve electrics. Justin was a pleasure to work with and was quick to respond.

My parts list is here. I also have the 700amp 144 Volt Open ReVolt DIY controller by Paul Holmes.

Any and all thoughts welcome. I am hoping I haven't missed anything. I am thinking about ordering an E-Vision from Victor. They have quite a bit of functionality, but the price tag is up there; we'll see what I decide. Maybe the Expert Pro.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think you'll be pretty happy with your performance and range. I'm a minimalist and have been running for a few months with no BMS and no amp hour counter, quite successfully. I have purchased Dimitri's AH/WH SOC gauge but have yet to install it. I don't think the Evision is worth the money, though I've heard it is a nice piece of equipment.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I have been re-thinking the Evision and may go with the E-Xpert Pro, but here's another thought I was having. I want to put a 3 gauge pillar pod in and thought about the ammeter, a voltmeter, and the E-Xpert Pro, but I like the ability to split the pack voltage in two that the Evision has, so then I thought about putting two voltmeters and the ammeter in the pillar pod and then find another spot for the E-Xpert Pro. Is there any downside to this? Do I need separate shunts for the voltmeters?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You don't need a shunt for voltage. Originally I too was going to do a split pack voltage monitoring system but after driving for a few months I don't think I'm going to bother. With bottom balanced cells pack voltage gives enough meaningful information near the end to make it useful, and if you also use a SOC gauge you should have a good idea of what is happening with your pack. If you haven't yet click on the ad for MiniBMS and take a look at Dimitri's SOC gauge, it's cheaper than the Xantrex/TBS.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks JRP. I am looking at Dimitri's now. I am not going to BMS so I would lose some functionality of it, but the main thing is measuring the ah. Do you know if anyone has used the Fuel Gauge Driver that EVWorks makes? Seems interesting, but not an exact science.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I finally wired up a Cycle Analyst from ebikes.ca specs at http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml , and gotta say for the price the thing is very impressive. I have the 'previous version', but it seems very full function and working well. I went for the fully enclosed unit, but the numbers are a bit small... I would recommend the 'large' display intended for interior mounting in EVs.

I'll update my site soon with some performance numbers and installation.... but haven't gotten there yet.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

octagondd said:


> Do you know if anyone has used the Fuel Gauge Driver that EVWorks makes? Seems interesting, but not an exact science.


Not familiar with that one. Just looked it up, interesting, but fairly pricey since it doesn't include a gauge.
http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=171


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I've been tempted, it is either that or the Dimitri's gauge. 

I like to track amp hours (actually, I don't care that much about amp hours, just charged, discharged, and a roughly linear scale between them.) The EVworks unit is supposed to work with the stock thermal-resistive fuel gauge, but '66 Datsun may not be very normal (it's thermal-resistive movement though.) The exchange rate to US dollars works in my favor plus customers outside Australia avoid a 10% GST that is reflected in the prices shown to unregistered users.

First things first, I have to hook the EVworks BMS cell modules to the Clean Power Auto BMS control board and to the Zilla and Manzanita charger. Then I'll get into instrumentation


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So a couple questions regarding Batteries and charging.

First, I have found two different measurements for TS 160Ah batteries and am curious if anyone has gotten any recently and can verify the size. I need to figure out how big my rear battery boxes need to be. I did read the end plates total about .75 inches, so I am just looking for the actual battery measurements.

Second, I ordered and received an Elcon 2000+ charger. It said it was setup on the 512a setting for (40) 160Ah batteries. The chart said it charges up to 3.6 volts at 15 amps and then up to 3.8 volts at 3 amps or less. I thought most people used 3.6 as the max volts. Do I need to send it back and get a different charge profile with a lower max voltage?

Thanks,
Dave


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

octagondd said:


> So a couple questions regarding Batteries and charging.
> 
> First, I have found two different measurements for TS 160Ah batteries and am curious if anyone has gotten any recently and can verify the size. I need to figure out how big my rear battery boxes need to be. I did read the end plates total about .75 inches, so I am just looking for the actual battery measurements.
> 
> ...


I just received my Elcon 2000+ about two weeks ago. From my exchanges with Gregory at Elcon, this is what I understand about some of their lithium profiles.

The 3.8V/cell peak voltage is for people using shunting BMS modules. Elcon has got other profiles, like 312 or 600 that stop at 3.6V/Cell, or 611 or 612 that stop at 3.65V/cell. I would use one of these profiles if I didn't have BMS modules on each cell.

Eric


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

I have an elcon 1500 going in when I get my Li.... and I am thinking that the 312 curve, which brings up the cells to 3.8 is too risky and I am going to use the 611 curve which will top out at 3.65 .


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> I have an elcon 1500 going in when I get my Li.... and I am thinking that the 312 curve, which brings up the cells to 3.8 is too risky and I am going to use the 611 curve which will top out at 3.65 .


You're right, profile 312 goes to 3.8v/cell. Profile 315 is another profile that stops at 3.6V/cell, albeit with higher tapering amperages. This profile is better suited for packs with smaller capacity cells, like 40 - 60Ah units.

Eric


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Where do you find these profiles and are they already loaded into the PFC 2000+, or do I need to send it back to him to get it loaded. The documentation is very poor.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

octagondd said:


> Where do you find these profiles and are they already loaded into the PFC 2000+, or do I need to send it back to him to get it loaded. The documentation is very poor.


I received copies of some of their profiles before I bought the charger (yes, I'm one of those PITA customers). 

There is only one profile loaded in the charger at a time, if Elcon supplied the charger (regardless of the vendor), it should have come with a profile sheet. The profile has to be loaded by Elcon in Sacramento. 

There is also a cryptic user selectable setting that is descibed in the docs. This setting (1-10) selects the overall size of the battery bank to determine things like max current (amps) = Ah/2 and amps to cutoff charger during constant voltage = Ah/80. The charger will also shut itself off if the energy delivered during the constant current phase exceeds Ah*2 or energy delivered during the constant voltage phase exceeds Ah*0.3. 

Eric


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Well that sucks. That is now two things wrong with my order so far. First I said I wanted to run a pack of 38 batteries but I was ordering 40 so I'd have a couple spares, and I also stated I wanted 3.65 as the end of charge because I was not using BMS, but the charger came with a profile for 40 batteries and 3.8 volts/cell. Looks like I have to send it back.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

If they pre-set the wrong number of batteries (40 vs 38) that would be a serious issue requiring re-programming because the final pack voltage would be set considerably too high, as long as they are doing that, tell them which curve you want set. There may be other Elcon dealers that can do it, but probably want to charge you....


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

dt,

If I ended up deciding to go with 40 batteries and no bms, do you think 3.65 bulk charge and 3.8 top off, or float, or whatever its called at 3.2 amps would be safe? I am only going off what I have read here and know nothing about battery charging. Obviously in the beginning I would check my batteries quite a bit to make sure they are staying in line with each other, then as I get to know the characteristics of the pack, I should be able to check less frequently. Or I could just have the pack curve adjusted at some point later if I see some cells going higher than my comfort level.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

octagondd said:


> dt,
> 
> If I ended up deciding to go with 40 batteries and no bms, do you think 3.65 bulk charge and 3.8 top off, or float, or whatever its called at 3.2 amps would be safe? I am only going off what I have read here and know nothing about battery charging. Obviously in the beginning I would check my batteries quite a bit to make sure they are staying in line with each other, then as I get to know the characteristics of the pack, I should be able to check less frequently. Or I could just have the pack curve adjusted at some point later if I see some cells going higher than my comfort level.



personally, I would pick a different curve ending at 3.65 without a shunting BMS. fromthe looks of the battery characteristics, once the internal voltage hits 3.8 it can rocket up pretty fast if you have a couple a little high they would be likely to meltdown.

so if didn't want to end the charger away, go with your 40, and the curve selector is SUPPOSED to be settable.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

dtbaker said:


> personally, I would pick a different curve ending at 3.65 without a shunting BMS. fromthe looks of the battery characteristics, once the internal voltage hits 3.8 it can rocket up pretty fast if you have a couple a little high they would be likely to meltdown.
> 
> so if didn't want to end the charger away, go with your 40, and the curve selector is SUPPOSED to be settable.


I agree, with no shunting, I would go no higher than 3.60-3.65V peak voltage on TS cells. Elcon can do it easily enough, though you lose the time in transit. Give your vendor or Elcon a call, they might staighten this out for no more than postage...

Eric


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, I got the charger back yesterday and they did not do what I asked which was to set it up for 38 cells and a max voltage of 3.65v/cell (138.7). They just adjusted the number of cells and left it with the same curve, so now it will charge to 144.4v in the last phase which is 3.8v/cell. I will probably run the 40 cells I mentioned above and that will put the final voltage per cell at 3.61. I am not sure why they did not change the curve, but I am fine with it how it is now since I will run 2 more cells and that will create the voltage cushion I was looking for. 

In a way, it is like the two extra cells replace what people use for BMS. High voltage cutoff protection. I will still probably get a cellog 8 to keep tabs on the 8 smallest/weakest batteries.


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

octagondd said:


> Well, I got the charger back yesterday and they did not do what I asked which was to set it up for 38 cells and a max voltage of 3.65v/cell (138.7). They just adjusted the number of cells and left it with the same curve, so now it will charge to 144.4v in the last phase which is 3.8v/cell. I will probably run the 40 cells I mentioned above and that will put the final voltage per cell at 3.61. I am not sure why they did not change the curve, but I am fine with it how it is now since I will run 2 more cells and that will create the voltage cushion I was looking for.
> 
> In a way, it is like the two extra cells replace what people use for BMS. High voltage cutoff protection. I will still probably get a cellog 8 to keep tabs on the 8 smallest/weakest batteries.


I think that you're on the right track. You can move on to the next challenge...  On the plus side, you get more voltage in regular use, I'm sure that you won't regret that...

Eric


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wouldn't leave the cell log on those cells all the time as there will be a small voltage drain on them which will cause an imbalance, your smallest cells will effectively become even smaller.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So I received a motor coupler that is the wrong size, but I posted pictures of it here, and have had a couple varying reviews of it. Someone commented anonymously on my blog the following:

"In my opinion that is a very bad design. The small contact area of the set screw on the key isn't enough to hold the key and coupler on the motor shaft with the type of loads applied in this case. The coupler will walk off the shaft, sliding down the spline,until it gets to the end of the shaft where it will disengage with a huge bang! Unfortunately this will probably destroy the motor shaft and coupler in the process.

Also, without being firmly attached to the shaft(such as with a press fit or a tapered bushing), the shaft and coupling might be subject to fret wear (look it up)."

If it is someone from this forum, I would love to get more info from you. Please contact me at [email protected]. Does anyone else have any opinions about this coupler keeping in mind I am going clutchless and will be traveling at 70-75mph for most of my commute? It is a bastard of a Lovejoy welded to a disk and spline. What are you using for a coupler?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

They are correct. Set screw on a key is probably not enough for the long term, taper lock is the way to go. Even on my low voltage 6x6 the initial setup with a sprocket using a straight keyway needed routine adjustment. Since I went to taperlock I've had no issues. On my Fiero I used a taperlock with my clutch hub pressed and welded into it and it's been working fine.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)




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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

A lot of people will tell you that set screw and key couplers are bad. They have been used for a lot of years, in a lot of EVs, and they can work just fine. Even the White Zombie used key and set screw coupler on the first duel 8 inch motor version. The extreme power level did damage the key and hub, but it didn't fail. 

The key (no pun intended) is that the hub must be a snug fit on the shaft. I prefer hubs with set screws at 2 locations. I've used set screw hubs on 2 EVs and I'm pretty sure neither have failed (one EV was sold years ago, but last I heard it was still in use.) I do not recommend key and set screw hubs if you plan to nail it with monster amps.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

This, holding up so far. I only have a few kilo-miles on it though.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As I've commented before I don't like that setup because the bolts take the load instead of the springs. May be fine but I think a better design would use the springs as intended, and have a taperlock


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Here is the response from the engineer who created the coupler:

_"I don't believe he has the proper understanding of how the adapter kit is installed. We never use the set screw because there is no need for it.

As the installation instructions clearly state, that coupler is a press-fit, not a slip on. There is .002" crush built into the coupler and motor shafts, just like any other coupler. This is the same method used by CanEV, Baldor, Maraton, and almost every other motor manufacturer in the world. No one has ever had a problem with this system, so I don't see why we would have one now.

The only time you would ever use the set screw is if you are using a pin that is too small for the slot; it would make it more snug. It is NOT intended to hold the coupler in place, and I see no reason why anyone would use it for that purpose. Whoever told the customer this must either not be an engineer, or has no experience with motor installations of any kind.

If there is a legitimate clearence problem with the motor/shaft coupler, then please let us know because that has to be corrected prior to installation.
_

_Also, unless you have heavy lateral thrust (and no rotational thrust) there is no reason why the coupler would walk. These motors have zero thrust movement, so it's not even an issue in this application. In the 40+ EV installations we've done, we have yet to see one walk. We even serviced some EV's where the coupler was so loose you could move it by hand... and after 4000 miles it still hasn't moved out of place._"

I did not have the instructions when I got the coupler, so now that I have them it does explain better that it is not a set screw holding it in place. What do you guys think? I am feeling much more comfortable now.

Thanks.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

An interference fit is much better, you should be fine.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> As I've commented before I don't like that setup because the bolts take the load instead of the springs. May be fine but I think a better design would use the springs as intended, and have a taperlock


Both the springs and bolts take the load exactly as the clutch center was intended to operate. 
I calculated the shear stress on the bolts and had plenty of margin.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So I need to design and build battery boxes. I am thinking about 1/2" plywood because it seems simple. Any thoughts on plywood as a box? Should I go with 5/8" or 3/4"? My box will probably hang from the hatch floor, so I will need to make sure it is weatherproofed somehow. What should I put on the outside to try to stop the water from getting in? I assume I will need to glue and cover the joints as well as reinforce the bottom with some sort of strapping that is tacked to the sides. Any other ideas? Is there a better material that is easy to manipulate to make a box?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am using LFPs, but was hoping to not have to use angle iron and welding which is where my thought about hanging them from the floor came from. I don't know if anyone else has done that or not. If angle iron is the safest method, then I will do that, but just curious if anyone else has tried to hang a box and if so how they went about it.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You could build a pretty strong box with plywood, epoxy resin, and fiberglass cloth.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Using ply is a lot easier, especially for a beginner. No need for anything exotic like kevlar either.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Perhaps have a sheet metal shop whip up a welded metal box with a lip. Then you can sink that into the floor. The easiest way I know to find sheet metal shops is contact local HVAC (heating, ventilation, and air conditioning) shops. That is how the batteries are sunk into the floor of my buggy, but I don't have any good pictures of it (and I don't want any - that was some of my earliest attempts to weld old thin sheet metal.)



octagondd said:


> So I need to design and build battery boxes. I am thinking about 1/2" plywood because it seems simple. Any thoughts on plywood as a box? Should I go with 5/8" or 3/4"? My box will probably hang from the hatch floor, so I will need to make sure it is weatherproofed somehow. What should I put on the outside to try to stop the water from getting in? I assume I will need to glue and cover the joints as well as reinforce the bottom with some sort of strapping that is tacked to the sides. Any other ideas? Is there a better material that is easy to manipulate to make a box?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

gottdi said:


> You used Sheet Metal on a Fiberglass Buggy?
> 
> I will build mine in fiberglass for my buggy.


It's hard to weld fiberglass to the floor pans.  I lowered the rear part of the floor 3 inches so I could get Optimas under the front seats.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Using ply is a lot easier, especially for a beginner. No need for anything exotic like kevlar either.


I think this is the way to go for me since I have little experience with anything. I do have someone who helps me and can build or fix anything so that is nice.

My box needs to hold 260 lbs, so I was thinking I could use 1/2 ply and then put a little 1" piece at the bottom of each of the side pieces so the floor of the box sits on it, then put a couple 1x2 cross bars for support. Would this work?

I also drew up a box with a frame of 1x2s and 3/8" ply on the outside. Maybe that would be more secure, but a bit heavier.

As far as weather treating, should I get already treated wood, or get raw wood and use a penetrating sealer with paint on top of that?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Either way would probably work. Treated wood will last longer, though it's not as if it's sitting out in the weather 24/7/365.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

And I live in Socal, so the precipitation is minimal. Thanks, JRP


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

EVfun said:


> Perhaps have a sheet metal shop whip up a welded metal box with a lip. Then you can sink that into the floor. The easiest way I know to find sheet metal shops is contact local HVAC (heating, ventilation, and air conditioning) shops. That is how the batteries are sunk into the floor of my buggy, but I don't have any good pictures of it (and I don't want any - that was some of my earliest attempts to weld old thin sheet metal.)


What thickness did you use on your box? Was it aluminum? How much weight did it need to hold. I was thinking of an aluminum box with the dimensions of 30" x15" to hold 20 TS 160Ah LFPs. Approx. 260 lbs. Would 1/8" aluminum do it, or would 1/4" be better?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

The 2 boxes are 11" by 21" by 3" deep and hold 3 Optimas each (135 lb.) They are made from 20 gauge mild steel with spot welded corners. They have no problem with the load and are stronger than the floor they are welded into.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Quick question about mounting bolts for the motor. Should I put Loctite or Noalox on the bolts before securing my adapter plate to the motor?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I used loctite on mine. Seemed like good insurance.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

octagondd said:


> Quick question about mounting bolts for the motor. Should I put Loctite or Noalox on the bolts before securing my adapter plate to the motor?


For the shaft hub, flywheel, and pressure plate bolts I recommend Loctite unless the manufacturer specifies otherwise. Motor to adapter plate is a toss-up IMHO, it would be hard to tell visually if these bolts starting backing off. I have used lock washers but not Loctite on my EVs. For the bolts between the adapter plate and transaxle or bell housing I don't use any thread locking compound and don't recommend it. I use the fasteners that used to hold the engine in place.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Another question about the motor/tranny mating. It looks like the motor shaft+coupler is toolong by about an 1/8th of an inch. I think I have two options.

1. Cut the motor shaft down - The only problem is I don't think we can make it perfectly flat and so it will not mate perfectly flush with the coupler.

2. I have some large 2"x2"x1/8" washers I can put between the motor and adapter plate. They probably aren't perfectly flat, but I think it would be the simplest solution.

Thoughts?? I am really excited about getting this thing mated and mounted in the car.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The coupler should be located by the fit on the shaft diameter, not the end face of the shaft. So even if the end of the shaft is not perfectly square I'm not sure it would cause a problem. The washers sound like a bad idea as they could mis align the motor and adapter. Machine shims would be more accurate than washers, a fully machined spacer even better.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Update - Motor and Tranny are mounted. I posted a quick video and some pics to my blog.

http://erxperience.blogspot.com/


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I received 45 TS 160AHA batteries last night. Pretty awesome feeling busting those boxes open. I will probably start asking large amounts of wiring questions in the coming months. So Exciting right now! Early Merry Christmas to me.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

It will be a fun ride for the next few months. I have realized through this process how little I know and so far a buddy of mine has done all the work on the car. I probably could have done it, but would have had to research and ask alot of questions before doing anything and even if I started to do it, it would have taken 3 times as long. Thankfully my friend enjoys working on cars. Now I am to the electronics part, so I am on my own. Should be interesting.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I have the Elcon PFC 2000+. Right now it is set up for 128V, but I am going to send it back and have it set for 144V. I will make sure the CV stage starts at 3.6V/cell. No BMS currently planned and I will also be using an EXpert Pro to count A/H while driving and keep clear of the low end of the charge as well as periodically check the individual cell voltages.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

All cells were between 3.292 and 3.3 Volts. A basic volt meter, so not sure how close it is in calibration. Most cells were 3.298 or so, just 1 that was 3.292.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I would not automatically assume they are all balanced at 50%. The voltage in the middle of the curve doesn't tell you much about SOC. Watch them closely until you know for sure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Problem is even if they are all at 50% SOC since they have different capacities they will reach full at different times, so you cant "just charge and go", you need to watch them carefully.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wasn't suggesting he watch them every time, but he has to watch them at first to see how they behave and to make sure the charger is shutting down before overvolting any individual cell.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

gottdi said:


> They are sent from the factory that way for a reason. So you know where the SOC is when you first start out.


Even if they're all sent out at the same SOC, you won't know what the SOC of the pack is when you receive it, due to a "wonderful" feature called self-discharge. They *might* all be matched, but you won't know how full they are.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Thank you Pete! This is very valuable information. This is probably the most important step in the build process........where you are risking the most valuable component and trusting the charger and your implementation. Thank you for sharing this experience, it will do a LOT for all of us who have not yet gotten to your stage of the game.

Can't wait to see the successful outcome.

Eric



gottdi said:


> I have my pack together and ready to charge up. I will be taking readings of each battery here in a minute then I will connect the charger up to the pack.
> 
> Pete
> 
> Photos to come in a bit.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

gottdi said:


> The self discharge of the lithium is minimal. Rickard had a set that sat for two years and were all still sitting at 3.2 volts. So that bit of information is a bit moot. Go watch what he has done and shown for all. It was done so you don't have to and so you don't make any of the same mistakes. He has put his money where his mouth is and shown all his testing of batteries. He has spent alot of money for all of us wanting to build an EV and use lithium.
> 
> Lithium are not LEAD. They don't behave like LEAD.


You are quite correct. Lithium are not Lead, and they don't behave like lead. Therefore, you cannot rely on the voltage of cells as an indicator of their current charge level like you do with lead. Lithium tends to plateau at working voltage for about 85% of it's capacity, dropping below that at 93% DOD and peaking above at 7% DOD. So just 'cause the lithium cells measured at 3.2v (Kinda low, given that they usually hang at 3.8v, depending on chemistry) means those cells could be anywhere between 7% and 93% discharged.

Lithium cells (Well, any cells really, but lithium and Ni-MH especially) should be balanced at every available opportunity, if only to mitigate the small variances that occur within any batch of cells. Whether that is top, middle or bottom-balancing is a matter of personal taste and/or electronic complexity.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

LiFePO4 cells do not sit at 3.8V, more like 3.3-3.4V, so 3.2 is not low. I'd also disagree that they need to be balanced at every opportunity. Once balanced they don't seem to drift much at all.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I have seen the threads about initial balance, and I will keep my eye on them. I have a lot of time on my hands, since I haven't cut a hole in the hatch for the battery box yet, or planned out the component board, so I was thinking of getting one of those 6amp $20 LFP chargers mentioned in the other threads and start charging individual cells up to 3.7 or 3.8. I don't know the math, but hopefully I can do 2 in 24 hours which would take three weeks to get to all 45. Then when the last few have rested for a bit, should I go back and stick the charger on any that are a bit lower voltage than the rest? I don't have the space to set them all up in parallel since I do not have a garage anymore and my wife would not care for 45 batteries strung out on the bedroom floor. And there's the issue of one of the dogs jumping on top while they are all strung together, now that would be a sight, but not one I want to deal with.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't do it, it's not worth the effort. Leave them as is until you put them in the vehicle, then charge them as a pack and watch them. If you decide you want to top or bottom balance them then you can figure out how you want to add or remove charge from individual cells.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Yah, I wasn't sure if it was worth the hassle. Also a couple notes I forgot to ask about. My cells QC pages say they were produced in June of 2009. Would it really take them a year and a half to get cells QCd and out the door? What are the production dates on others who have recently received their cells? Do these have the yttrium? (sp?) I have also read that some people received ah listings for each cell, but mine did not come with a list like that. Would I contact Evolve and give them the serial numbers of my cells to get the capacities of the cells?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My SE/CALB cells were produced in May 09 and arrived in August 09 I think, so no it shouldn't take that long. Don't know why your cells are so old but I don't think it should affect them. The SE/CALB QC pages include AH and resistance, I'm surprised the TS cells don't. You could try contacting Evolve.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I watched one of the EVTVs lately and like the aluminum battery box idea. Very simple with three layers on the bottom basically. Any thoughts on it? Is diamond plate aluminum a lot stronger than regular sheet aluminum? If you saw what they did, what do you think about not using diamond plate? Would I need to go up to a much thicker sheet? I need to hold 20 batteries in one box and will be hanging it on four sides.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I haven't worked with aluminum diamond plate other than playing with some samples at Lowes. I wasn't impressed with the stiffness of the thinner pieces. You could try a similar test and see what you think.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Anyone have any suggestions for a single cell, or 5 cell charger? I am going to do an initial top balance as well as it would be good to have a single cell charger around if needed. 

http://www.batteryspace.com/Smart-C...1-Cell-LiFePO4-Rechargeable-Battery-Pack.aspx

I saw this one posted on the board recently, but am not sure why it is set for 3.8V.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=12105

A friend recommended this one as well as it is adjustable and can do 6 cells. Not sure if it has a CV phase though, but at a low amount of amps, CV may not be that necessary.

Thoughts, suggestions?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am at the crossroads. My project stalled for a year for various reasons. I have basically two options.

1. Find someone in SoCal with EV build experience to help me finish the project. I can pay a bit, but not a lot.

2. Sell the project. This has 2 subsets.
a. Sell the whole project to a local person who wants to finish my build or wants all the parts and will scrap the car.
b. Part out everything and sell the batteries locally as I really do not want to ship them.

I am sad about not being able to get anything done this year but also realizing I may have bit off more than I could chew. If any of you live in SoCal and are interested in helping me finish, message me or email me at [email protected].

If you are interested in buying my project, get in touch with me. I spent around $15K and will sell it for $9K OBO. All the parts are new and never used except the Motor has been mated with the Tranny and is installed in the car. I purchased a 144V kit from Evolve except for the controller. I purchased and built the OpenRevolt 144V 700Amp controller from Paul and Sabrina. It is finished except the end plates. I would probably just throw it in as a bonus if you want to play with it and decide whether to use it or not. It works as I have hooked it up to the motor with a 12V battery. Also, there is a serial port that communicates with a Win XP program and shows various things like throttle, Volts, Amps, etc. I have 45 TS(Winston) 160AH batteries. Check my blog out if you want to see the rest of the components, or check Evolve Electrics page for their kits

I really hope someone is interested in my project so it can either be completed, or moved along to help another project.

Dave


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## ewdysar (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi Dave,

I'm sorry to hear that you're getting bogged down. Even though I'm local, I dont' really have any time in the next few months to help with the project.

However, I might be able to help with getting the project into someone's hands that can finish it up. You can put me first in line, in case you do want to sell the complete project. Maybe I can come by tomorrow and get a feel for where the project is at. 

Let me know...

Eric
The guy in Altadena with the electric 30' sailboat
PS. I'll send a direct email too...


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

First of all, I want to thank everyone who wrote, called and encouraged me in this decision. This community is fantastic. Long story short, I am going to continue the project with a little bit of help from a local EVer who lives a couple miles away. I have been re-ignited to really tackle the problems and will be posting here often to get advice, help, whatever I can glean to make this happen in a timely manner. I am hoping to take some photos and make better notes on what some of the issues are over this weekend and then I will post them here to get the ball rolling again. Prepare for the barrage of questions.

Thanks again everyone!
Dave


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

great news! Glad to hear you are taking another go at it. Definitely post up some pictures and ask questions, it's great you've got someone close by that is willing/able to help out too.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

octagondd said:


> Prepare for the barrage of questions.


That's why we're all here


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Got the front battery racks from my friend last night and have a couple questions. How much space do I need to leave around the tranny/motor/motor mount for wiggle room? It is going to be close with the battery bolts and the hood. When we measured I knew it would be tight, so I am hoping I can leave an inch of space above the tranny which would give me about half an inch between the battery bolts and the hood.

btw, super excited to get these racks. I have been waiting for a while but he has been very busy. I went out in the dark with a couple flashlights and put the racks in place to see how the fit is and look at possible mounting locations. Then I took some spare aluminum pieces I had and got a better idea of space for my control board. I stayed up until 1:30am taking all my components out of their boxes and trying to arrange them on the control board in a way that made sense to me, although I did not have my wiring diagram in front of me.

Also, I am planning on an aluminum control board for my controller, DC/DC, contactors, misc. 12V electrics. Anyone see a problem with using aluminum. I was thinking of getting nylon or rubber washers to try and isolate it from the frame, but maybe that is overkill.

More questions and pics coming on the weekend. The big issue is changing my motor mount as I think the one I have may not work the best for a few different reasons.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_How much space do I need to leave around the tranny/motor/motor mount for wiggle room? It is going to be close with the battery bolts and the hood.

_This depends on your motor/tranny mounts
An IC engine needs fairly soft mounts to stop the nasty IC vibration - an electric can have stiffer mounts

The biggest loads will be the inertial loads on the motor/tranny unit while you are throwing the car around the track

For a quick and dirty check get a bit of wood and lever your motor/tranny about - try and get about twice as much force as it would take to lift the motor/tranny
That should show how much it is going to move


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am using the stock rubber motor mounts. Two of them are connected to the tranny and one is on the motor side. They are pretty stiff rubber mounts. I can only move the motor/tranny with my hands about 1/4" or so. I imagine if I got something to get some leverage I would move it 1/2" or so. I don't know much about cars so I am curious what kind of movement these stock rubber mounts usually move when bumping around on the road.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The movement is more from motor torque than road bumps. I had to add a torque arm to mine to keep if from rotating too much under acceleration and regen loads.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So, how close do you have other things mounted near your tranny and motor. I realize my mounts my be stiffer or softer than other peoples, but if I need to be at least 3 inches away, then I have to figure something else out, but if most people mount stuff within an inch and a half or so, I may be fine and worrying over nothing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I have stuff mounted within half an inch in some places. A little closer than I'd like but it has not been an issue.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> The movement is more from motor torque than road bumps. I had to add a torque arm to mine to keep if from rotating too much under acceleration and regen loads.


You are quite right I was confusing the CRX with a rear wheel drive car where the motor gearbox/torque is ~ 450ftlbs with a mass of ~ 400lbs

A front wheel drive car like the CRX has a motor/gearbox/diff torque of ~1500lbft


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I have stuff mounted within half an inch in some places. A little closer than I'd like but it has not been an issue.


Thanks. I am assuming you are talking about your fiero here. I am feeling better about the one inch of space I have now.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yes the Fiero. I have a lot more space in the 6 wheeler  Plus the motor is solid mounted.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

OK, so I took some photos and will attempt to add them here.

First issue: Motor Mount









I have a circular clamp attached to some angle iron my buddy James made. I think the clamp they sent me is for an 8in. motor since it does not sit flush on the motor and the bolts they sent weren't long enough. I had to get the car moved, so I bought some longer bolts and secured it. During the tow, the clamp slipped and rotated a bit which pulled the motor mount towards the firewall which is not the direction the motor mount is intended to go. It is mainly for up and down motion.

Here is another view:










Last shot:










My thought is to remove the clamp and angle iron bracket and put a plate on the end of the motor that is welded to a bracket attaching to the bottom of the motor mount. This does two things for me. It gets rid of the circular clamp which I don't like too much and it creates more space above the motor for my component board.










I also thought maybe this could be done with just angle iron on the top two bolts of the motor. It seems the adapter plate holds the motor pretty securely, so this end mount isn't a huge load bearing thing. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 

Am I on the right track here?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

So while you are pondering the last post, here is the second issue.

Battery rack mounting









First, I need to get rid of a few things off the firewall. Can I just cut these fuel and water lines off and plug them with something? Should I try to pump out anything still remaining in there? I doubt any fuel is in there since the gas tank was removed almost two years ago so it should be evaporated, but there may still be water in the heater core. It may have evaporated as well though.










Here is where I would like the firewall rack to sit with 8 batteries in it. At the top of the firewall there are three bolts I want to use with L shaped brackets to the underside of the angle iron and then bolt them together.









I was thinking about running a piece of steel under the rack for it to sit on and welding it to the circled area on the right side. It would probably have to be a decent thickness to hold the rack. Is there a better way? maybe angle iron or I shaped?









Here is the left side location for welding.









This is the clearance I have between the rack and the adapter plate/tranny. It looks like I can shave off some of the adapter plate if needed.

Next is the bumper battery rack.









I think I can weld it in two locations that I have circled in these pics. Should I also do something at the top of the rack to give it stability?










Last Picture, an overview of the engine bay. I think I will get rid of the large 12V battery on the left and replace it with a smaller 12V. This will make more space for the component board as well.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What are you planning on using for heat? If you need to access the heater core anyway you might as well just pull it out from inside and stick some plugs in the fire wall holes.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am planning on no heat at the moment. (So Cal) I guess I would have to remove the whole dash to get the heater core out which I don't really want to do. It does get cold enough to want heat now and then, but not enough for me to want to pull the dash apart. If I had a foggy windsheild situation I would have to pull over and use a rag I guess.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

It depends on the vehicle, some heater cores are accessible without major surgery, some are nightmares. You should be able to find a diagram for your car on the net to see what's involved.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I read a while ago that for the CRX it is the major nightmare kind, but I will double check that.

What do you think of changing the motor mount and the mounting points for my battery racks?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Well I'm no structural engineer but I think you are on the right track with your plans. Make sure your motor support has the same type of bushing as the transmission, otherwise it will take all the load. I'm assuming the transmission has either rubber or poly mounts.
*Never mind, I see you are attached to the stock mount which has a bushing.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

I like your idea of replacing the band clamp with something bolted to the end of the motor. Whether you use a plate or a piece of angle probably doesn't really matter. I'd also replace that rubber motor mount with polyurethane to stiffen it up some too. You want some flex, but don't need nearly as much as it did with the gas engine. 



octagondd said:


> I also thought maybe this could be done with just angle iron on the top two bolts of the motor. It seems the adapter plate holds the motor pretty securely, so this end mount isn't a huge load bearing thing. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
> 
> Am I on the right track here?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Only if you also replace the rubber on the transmission mounts as well since the stiffer mount will take most of the load. Frankly I wouldn't bother if it's in good shape.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Spent a little time with Bruce this weekend and he helped point me in a direction for a couple things. He thinks I should just use the clamp I have on the motor, as fabbing up a new is a bunch of work. I am ok with this, I will just have to work my component board around it. I will take off the clamp, add some rubber to the inside and re-install the clamp and make sure it is bolted on there nice and tight. Not the optimal thing, but I can work with it. 

Next, he gave me a couple thoughts on the battery racks. For the firewall, I decided to get some angle iron and run a support across the bay underneath it, and then I will make some brackets to secure the top. I bought an angle grinder and the angle iron as well as a contour tool so I could try to match the curve on the side of the frame. I will post a picture of it sometime this week. Not a great job by me on the cutting, but it will work.

The next step is where I need some advice. I was hoping to weld some of this stuff, but I don't have 220V power, so Bruce suggested I try to bolt it in wherever I could. For most of it, I think this works. I may need to bring a rack to him and have a couple things welded to it. He suggested using sheet metal screws, since where I need to bolt in many places, I can not get to the other side to add the nut. Will sheet metal screws work for me? All the places I can think that I would use them, they would not really be load bearing, just keeping the angle iron from moving. Do sheet metal screws really bite in and hold well?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Just had a thought. Is there something like a wall anchor that works with a bolt? I drill a hole and insert some sort of threaded piece and then when the bolt goes in it flanges out underneath the threading part to hold the whole thing.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Yup, it's called a rivnut I think. Quick google......yes, rivnut.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Looks like that could work. I would have to find someone with a tool, cause I don't want to buy a tool I will use 10 times.

If I didn't use the rivnuts, what do you think about the sheet metal screws? I saw some with a self drilling end.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There are some cheaper kits that include a tool, probably not as easy to use as the one in the video but good enough for a few holes. I'm not sure of the holding power of sheet metal screws or the forces involved in your application. They would probably be fine in shear, pullout might not be as good.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I found a couple rivnuts at a local Fastener supplier. He let me have them to try out. I also found a couple websites that show how to make your own rivnut tool which is pretty basic.

http://www.fjr1300.info/howto/rivnut-tool.html

I will practice with these two tonight and then order some if all looks good. Thanks for the RivNut idea. I think this will help free me from having to weld a few things and I feel they are a better solution than the sheet metal screws.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

My home brew rivnut tool did not work so well, so I ordered this one:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/rivetnuttool.php

It has worked adequately so far. I installed two rivnuts into the frame and the support bar for my firewall battery rack.









Quick question about spray painting. I cleaned the angle iron, put on a coat of primer, then put on two coats of color. When I placed my unfinished rack on it, the paint came off immediately. Do I need to add a clear coat for some more protection? Is there a better way to paint this stuff?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What paint are you using, are the primer and topcoat compatible? What temperatures were you working at?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I'll check the paint tonight. The color is Rustoleum I think. I primered outside and it was about 70 degrees. Left it outside over night to dry. Added color the next evening I think and it was closer to 55 -60 degrees and left it out all night. I am guessing that was a mistake. 2nd coat was the same, evening and left out overnight. I live in Socal, so the overnight temps were probably in the mid 40s or so.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Rustoleum is a slow drying paint in my experience, and low overnight temps will make it worse.


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

Always great to see progress on another CRX...

Two tips from my own learnings:

1. I redid a piano this summer with a Rustoleum primer and then a Rustoleum paint... the paint bubbled up (I think the term is alligator skin) as soon as it hit the primer. Ugly and required tons of sanding. Turns out they're not all compatible, even same brands. I recommend getting the Rustoleum Professional line at Home Depot (probably sold everywhere, I know there though). They make a good primer and a black enamel paint that dries hard. They are in the same line and meant to go together, they will work.

2. All primers can be topcoated with paint right away, but I usually give it a half hour or so before I hit it with paint anyway. But the important thing is make sure you let the first coat of paint dry completely before doing the second, or you can "trap in" uncured paint under the 2nd coat that will slough off when you scrape it, as yours did. To dry faster I like to bring it into the house (in cold weather, garage in summer) once enough fumes have vented away. Obviously this could have negative domestic side-effects depending who you live with.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I prefer DupliColor instead of Rustoleum, or Plasticote, DupliColor seems to dry faster and have fewer issues than the others, and better coverage than Plasticote. I too have had "crinkling" or alligatoring problems with Rustoleum at times. However I would not recommend switching brands on the same project as that may introduce more compatibility problems.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I like Rustoleum because I find it sticks well to a prepared surface, but it is slow drying. Cleaning up angle iron so it will take paint well is difficult. Rust needs to be removed because it doesn't stick to steel well. The steel needs a good Acetone cleaning, after a quick scraping to remove scale (either phosphate or rust.) I then typically wipe it down with paint thinner and when it appears dry but still smells I hit it lightly with the first coat of paint. This coat doesn't cover well but it touches everywhere. I let that dry as required, you should be able to lightly touch it with your finger tip without it sticking or leaving an obvious mark. Then I give it a proper coat for coverage. Avoid getting to heavy, especially avoid runs. Parts then usually spend a day in the garage followed by a day in the house. That usually makes it nice and dry but if it is cold or you cannot bring the part inside it may take an extra day or two. It will stick better if you sand the metal after the acetone cleaning, especially if it has a smooth surface (sheet metal usually does.)

The black sides on my EV Buggy are painted with 2 coats of Rustoleum 7777 Satin Black. I bought 4 cans and applied 1 coat on 1 side with 1 can. The remaining paint in the cans where used for lots of other details on the buggy. To prep for the paint job I wet sanded the sides with Scotchbright (fiberglass texture preserved) with a little alcohol and a couple drops of dish soap added to the water. I then washed and rinsed the sides and let them dry overnight before painting. It has been there for 18 years.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

EVFun, Did you spray primer at all?


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

I usually use primer on galvanized metal (using a Rustoleum primer for that.) Sometimes I prime steel, but usually I don't. When I want a very smooth exposed finish I'll apply several coats of primer and sand between them. With aluminum I rarely prime, but roughen it with about 240 grit sandpaper shortly before painting. I never prime fiberglass when using Rustoleum.

After Rustoleum is good and dry it is much harder. Even a couple of days is only about 90% of fully cured (or 50% if I'm painting when the nights are in the 40's and the humidity is high.) Wiping a surface along the edge with paint thinner right before spraying makes the line blend in much better. Most of the undercarriage of the Buggy is Rustoleum and things have been added or removed so I have had to cut a number of times.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

My spray paint and primer are rustoleum. I will also check the angle iron to see if the actual paint came off, or the other rack just left marks on it.

If the paint came off, should I strip the piece and start over, or try to fill in where it got scratched? If I should strip it, do I just use paint thinner? Pardon my ignorance.


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## DrDirt (Aug 29, 2010)

Dave, concerning heat, I would plan on putting a small electric heating element in place of the heater core. I'm just down the road from you and I've needed mine the last few weeks in the evenings to keep the windshield clear. KTA has one (http://www.kta-ev.com/ClimateControlComponents_s/1823.htm), I've seen folks just rip one out of a conventional 120v home heater. The element doesn't care if it's running AC or DC. The one I have doesn't really heat up my truck, but it does keep the window clear of condensation.


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## DrDirt (Aug 29, 2010)

Concerning battery box mounts: My front box behind the grill is similar in design to yours and mounted in a fashion similar to your proposal. I attached it only at the bottom. My boxes are really just bottom trays with a frame at the top that bolted to the bottom tray with threaded rod. I chose to weld tabs on a frame member and then bolt the box to the tabs. 

When mounting on body sheet metal, I ran my bolts through the metal and put a backing plate on the opposite side so the sheet metal was sandwiched between two pieces of thicker steel. If you're going to use a blind rivet type fastener, I would put quite a few in to spread the load around. That sheet metal is not very thick.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

DrDirt said:


> Dave, concerning heat, I would plan on putting a small electric heating element in place of the heater core. I'm just down the road from you and I've needed mine the last few weeks in the evenings to keep the windshield clear. KTA has one (http://www.kta-ev.com/ClimateControlComponents_s/1823.htm), I've seen folks just rip one out of a conventional 120v home heater. The element doesn't care if it's running AC or DC. The one I have doesn't really heat up my truck, but it does keep the window clear of condensation.


Yah, I was concerned about that a bit. Not too excited about taking off the dash and ripping that thing out. I will think on it longer. I have been leaving work with no heat on to see what is happening in my ICE Civic, and it has fogged a bit here an there. Definitely don't need that while driving 70 on the freeway.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

DrDirt said:


> Concerning battery box mounts: My front box behind the grill is similar in design to yours and mounted in a fashion similar to your proposal. I attached it only at the bottom. My boxes are really just bottom trays with a frame at the top that bolted to the bottom tray with threaded rod. I chose to weld tabs on a frame member and then bolt the box to the tabs.
> 
> When mounting on body sheet metal, I ran my bolts through the metal and put a backing plate on the opposite side so the sheet metal was sandwiched between two pieces of thicker steel. If you're going to use a blind rivet type fastener, I would put quite a few in to spread the load around. That sheet metal is not very thick.


Wow DrDirt, Thanks much for your advice. I am planning on welding 3 pieces of 1/8" steel to the bottom of the front rack and then using 6-10 rivnuts across the bottom. Do you think that will be enough? I think I am going to need to attach something at the top as well just to try to stabilize it. I don't want to hit the brakes and have my battery rack fly through the grill.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

DRDirt has got me thinking of going to more of a battery tray situation and cutting a large portion of the angle iron off my racks. What are your thoughts on using a couple nylon ratchet straps for holding the batteries to the tray and to the remaining side of the rack?

http://www.strapworks.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ROS1N


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I used similar straps to hold my packs together in the Fiero, though I have a solid bar going across the top of them to hold them down.

Regarding your paint situation, if the rest of the paint seems dry and solid I'd just touch up the scratched areas.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

octagondd said:


> My spray paint and primer are rustoleum. I will also check the angle iron to see if the actual paint came off, or the other rack just left marks on it.
> 
> If the paint came off, should I strip the piece and start over, or try to fill in where it got scratched? If I should strip it, do I just use paint thinner? Pardon my ignorance.


If the paint is able to come off easily then it should be stripped off because that weak bond layer will continue to limit adhesion of anything on top of it. Paint can scratch and you can just touch those up. You can take a small flat blade screwdriver and scratch it. If the paint removed is just the point of the scratch then the bond is good and I wouldn't strip it unless trying to make an extra pretty surface finish. If the paint comes off in little chips around the point of the scratch then the bond is suspect. I don't think any spray can paints [1] have the scratch resistance of professional 2 part finishes.

[1] not any spray can paints that you can buy anymore. I used to get this spray can epoxy where the solvent in the can was half methylene chloride. Nasty stuff to spray, it would make me as high as a kite if I wasn't careful. After it dried it was tough enough to even survive a few hammer blows. It had great adhesion and film strength.


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## DrDirt (Aug 29, 2010)

This is a pic of my basic battery box/tray. This is one of the big ones that's under the bed of my pickup. The design of all the trays is similar.










The tray bottom is attached to the vehicle. Attachment details depend upon the location. The aluminum channels with threaded rods provide the compression the vertical rod and small angle on top hold the batteries down. 

Here's what I would improve on this design. 1) The aluminum channels take up a lot of space and were really difficult tighten up when I got the trays in the vehicle. 2) All that steel on top is a hazard when hooking up your jumpers and cables. It would be really nice to have a design with no metal on top. The guys at HPEV have accomplished this by using 3/8" aluminum compression plates with tabs welded near the bottom of the plates. These tabs are then bolted to mating tabs on the tray bottom. There's no metal on top of their batter packs. I didn't want to pay someone to weld aluminum and didn't want the weight of steel compression plates. 

I've seen notailpipe's pics of his strap system. It's pretty slick, but I'd worry about the straps creeping over time and losing the compression stress. All polymers creep. If I was to use straps, I'd probably go with metal.

Here's a pick of one rear battery pack with all the jumpers, leads, and BMS wiring. 










There's a lot of stuff on top of the batteries. It would be nice to eliminate the metal hold-down rack. It really got in the way when trying to place the cables leading to and from the pack. I didn't want the terminals to be directly above the metal hold-down rack so I had to take them off at weird angles as you can see above. Also note that I screwed up by putting an even number of cells in each column. That's why I have those long jumpers between columns. If I'd used an odd number of cells then the + and - terminals would be side by side and I wouldn't have needed those long jumpers. Live and learn.


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## DrDirt (Aug 29, 2010)

Details of how I attached the front battery tray.

This is a closeup of the front tray. You can see a rail along one side and a tab at the other. The rail rests on the truck's frame rails and bolts to an existing tab on each. The tab bolts to a mating tab which I welded on the structural member behind the bumper (similar to your proposed location).










Here's the tray installed with batteries. You can see the connections in the lower right hand corner.










It seems to be working fine. All the attachments are at the bottom as you see.


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## DrDirt (Aug 29, 2010)

r.e. paint. As you can see from my photos, I just slopped on some brown primer and called it good. I didn't do any prep to the steel except to clean off any oil.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think that may be a bit of overkill on the cell compression. Jack Rickard doesn't even strap them any longer, just has a snug fit in the box. There shouldn't be much swelling in normal use. As for metal around the top of the cells, you can get fiberglass channels and angle "iron", which might provide enough stiffness. I've got a piece of square fiberglass tubing I'm going to use to hold down a group of cells.


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## DrDirt (Aug 29, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I think that may be a bit of overkill on the cell compression.


You may be right about that. It would be great to have some data on how much compressive stress is needed to resist any swelling. I didn't want to pay for the 3/8" aluminum plate I'd seen in HPEV's boxes so I picked a standard channel size. The problem is they take up a bunch of space. I like the idea of banding them, but I worry about creep in any polymer material. Octagold, since you have full battery boxes, you could try putting a compression plate at one end, tap a few holes in the vertical angles and use some bolts to push the batteries together.



JRP3 said:


> As for metal around the top of the cells, you can get fiberglass channels and angle "iron", which might provide enough stiffness. I've got a piece of square fiberglass tubing I'm going to use to hold down a group of cells.


I agree about eliminating metal on top. You don't need a lot of strength. You're just holding the batteries down.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

This is all I've had on my packs for the last two years, no swelling.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

DrDirt said:


> Octagold, since you have full battery boxes, you could try putting a compression plate at one end, tap a few holes in the vertical angles and use some bolts to push the batteries together.


I am planning on some 1/8" aluminum at the ends. I am liking the straps idea, as well as 1 strap over the top and under the tray. This would eliminate two vertical pieces of angle iron and 3 horizontal pieces. I will keep 2 of the vertical ones because my rack isn't quite exact width, so my strapping will go around the back of the vertical pieces. I am also using the back horizontal piece to mount to the firewall. I can do the same thing on the bumper rack.


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## corbin (Apr 6, 2010)

octagondd said:


> I am planning on some 1/8" aluminum at the ends. I am liking the straps idea, as well as 1 strap over the top and under the tray. This would eliminate two vertical pieces of angle iron and 3 horizontal pieces. I will keep 2 of the vertical ones because my rack isn't quite exact width, so my strapping will go around the back of the vertical pieces. I am also using the back horizontal piece to mount to the firewall. I can do the same thing on the bumper rack.


i used 1/8" alumn ends and poly straps. So far it has been working fine. see my blog for details.

corbin


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

DrDirt said:


>


The hold down here looks a lot like the battery hold down I am currently building (it's getting welded up today). I'm going to try spraying it with Plastidip instead of paint. I have not used it before (at least not in a spray application) but it seems like a good combo of protection and insulation.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

dladd said:


> I'm going to try spraying it with Plastidip instead of paint. I have not used it before (at least not in a spray application) but it seems like a good combo of protection and insulation.


I've done a lot with Plastidip over the last 30 years. Its great stuff for a variety of uses, but it has its downsides:

1. Its noxious as hell. If you're spraying that much of it, you're going to need heavy ventilation, and a fresh air breathing system if you can get one. The thinner is mostly Toluene, which is nasty. Airless spraying only, too. Its pretty awful stuff, and majorly flammable until it cures, too. Don't ask me how I know...

2. I've never been satisfied with the bond of this stuff to raw steel and iron. I'd prime your steel with POR-15 first. If you choose not to do that, and your inprimed steel is rusty, the Plastidip coating is certain to fail.

3. It isn't very durable. Very easily damaged, like from stacking batteries into your angle irons, or especially having them move around on the road. Once the Plastidip film is broken, Problem #2 crops up and the coating peels right off the metal.

Not saying don't use it- its a neat idea, and sprayed in very light coats over a well-primed surface, it might work out. I've just got too much experience with it over three decades not to let you know what I think...

TomA


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I wonder if using the thicker stuff brushed on might be better, since it's intended to be built up. I've also considered a two part bedliner.


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Tom, thanks for the heads up! I was planning on using their primer then spraying. Maybe I'll try the brush on version? Bedliner seems like a good idea too. I'll see what they've got at the hardware store in the morning.

I just was thinking something plasticized would be a good idea with all the connections right there, and also thinking that the rubber would help 'grip' the batteries. 

I'll noodle on it tonight and see what they've got in the morning.

And I would like to know how you found out about the flamability.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

I just pulled the MSDS on the primer and the thinner. Wow. 

The primer is even more toxic than the thinner. Flash point is 45°F. Xylene, Benzene and Toluene. Some cocktail:

http://www.plastidip.com/docs/M938_5_13_10.pdf

This stuff is a curiosity- lots of promise and an interesting idea, but just not up to outdoor, let alone vehicular use, IMO.

Bed liner is an order of magnitude better choice.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I am going to be re-installing my motor mount tomorrow and want to know if I should put a thread compound on the major bolts before tightening them down. Also, on the various items I will be bolting to the car, should I do the same?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Probably not necessary as you have less vibration than in an ICE. I'm not sure but I may have put some thread locker on my coupler and adapter plate to motor bolts as added insurance since they can't be checked once installed.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I put loktite on my adapter plate originally as well, but I believe it was the not so permanent version. The red one?

I did get the motor mount re-installed today. A lot of work modifying it so it would sit a little straighter. I only have hand tools and don't necessarily know how to use them. I broke a drill bit because I was finishing a hole and got too impatient and went too hard and long on it. It was one of those cone bits that expands the hole. Live and learn.

I got some rubber from the guy who welded some stuff for me yesterday. I glued the rubber to the mount and hopefully that will help with any rotational motion. I also cranked the 5/8" bolts as hard as I could on the mount so that should help keep it in place.










Here are a couple other shots of my racks with some pieces welded into place.









Bumper rack - Metal welded to bottom for mounting









Firewall rack with a couple brackets welded to the front for mounting the control board

Next is cutting the racks down to be trays, then cleaning, and painting.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I use the blue locktite, which is the non permanent version. Red needs to be heated up to remove.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I will have to look at the tube. My friend James put it on, so I can't remember which one it was.

Also I bought some acetone and paint for the racks. Painting with a brush will probably take longer, but won't waste as much paint as spray painting these things.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

What I would consider for holding those CALB cells down is to use the end plates. Once you clamp a row of cells with all-thread or stainless steel banding the cells inside won't move. My rows of Thunder Sky cells are held down by the end plates. I took the plates off and drilled and tapped two holes in the center of the end plates, one near the top and other near the bottom. The I put them back into banded blocks in rows of 8 or 3 (4 blocs of 8 cells, 2 blocks of 3 cells.) I attached angle brackets to those holes and hold the rows down with all-thread at each end. With the smaller 60 amp hour cells I was very uncomfortable with any type of metal frame around the top edges of a block of cells. Holding them down by the end plates worked well so I would consider it with any future pack.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Recently I visted the University of Eindhoven in the Netherlands for their VW Lupo EL conversion. Very nicely done, also a lot of detail went into the CAN Bus vehicle intergration etc. 
They are using PVC blocks with iron treads going down to the battery box for holding down the cells. This is from my perspective, the most effective method to keep the cells in place.

A link with a lot of pictures of the vehicle:
http://www.3-liter.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3296&p=39359


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVfun said:


> What I would consider for holding those CALB cells down is to use the end plates. Once you clamp a row of cells with all-thread or stainless steel banding the cells inside won't move.


I don't know if you've actually used the all thread rods but they don't hold the cells the way the banding does since they don't fit into the cell grooves the way the banding does. At least the setup that shipped with my CALB cells didn't.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I need some advice on drilling holes in angle iron and other steel. Maybe I am too impatient. I have some gold colored bits which I think are pretty hard and made for metal drilling. I only have a hand drill. First I tried with a 9/32 bit, but I think I made it too dull. I have since slowed the drill speed and have been adding some wd-40 to keep things cool. I am now starting with a small bit and then either moving up to different bits or using a cone shaped bit to expand the hole.

Is this the only way to go and it is slow going, or are there some better bits and/or lubricant that helps to get through this stuff.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> I don't know if you've actually used the all thread rods but they don't hold the cells the way the banding does since they don't fit into the cell grooves the way the banding does. At least the setup that shipped with my CALB cells didn't.


You can't torque down on the all-thread and hold the cells secure? The fact that the banding sits inside the cell grooves isn't contributing to holding my banded cells. The don't wiggle enough to reach the movement limits that would allow. In fact, they don't move at all. I can easily pick up a block of 8 by one end strap and there is no movement between cells.


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## TomA (Mar 26, 2009)

octagondd said:


> Is this the only way to go and it is slow going, or are there some better bits and/or lubricant that helps to get through this stuff.


OK, this is a huge subject, but here are a few practical pointers:

1. You probably don't have the right bits. Those golden "titanium" Chinese or big box store bits are not as good as a USA or German made high speed steel or cobalt steel bit. You're probably also using bits for wood, which have a steeper angle at the cutting edge. Get the "flattest" best quality bits you can. They last a long time if resharpened and not overheated. I've had some for more than 25 years. I don't like step bits, because they are usually really poor quality.

2. Slow down. Drilling metal takes patience and pressure. With a hand drill, its hard to control that pressure and not wiggle or snap off bits. Don't use so much pressure that you turn the drill bits blue, but don't be shy. It kind of takes a little (OK a lot...) of practice to get a good feel for what you're doing. for 1/4" holes, stay at or under 700 rpm.

3. WD40 isn't cutting oil. Motor oil isn't cutting oil. Get cutting oil and use it liberally; there is no substitute.

4. Drill 1/8" pilot holes first. The smaller hole creates a clearance for the webbed point of a larger bit, allowing it to cut faster instead of spinning its large point into a conical divot on the workpiece, making heat and wearing out the operator. The smaller pilot hole is also easier to place accurately. Without a drill press, I wouldn't try to drill a 1/4 or larger hole without a smaller one to start with.

5. Be patient. drilling holes in metal is hard on both the tools and the operator. You're doing a few things wrong, but even when you're not, its still going to be hard work that takes patience and concentration.

HTH,

TomA


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

EVfun said:


> You can't torque down on the all-thread and hold the cells secure? The fact that the banding sits inside the cell grooves isn't contributing to holding my banded cells. The don't wiggle enough to reach the movement limits that would allow. In fact, they don't move at all. I can easily pick up a block of 8 by one end strap and there is no movement between cells.


I couldn't get them tight enough to hold without slipping, but in fairness I was doing groups of 12 cells.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

TomA said:


> OK, this is a huge subject, but here are a few practical pointers:
> 
> 1. You probably don't have the right bits. Those golden "titanium" Chinese or big box store bits are not as good as a USA or German made high speed steel or cobalt steel bit. You're probably also using bits for wood, which have a steeper angle at the cutting edge. Get the "flattest" best quality bits you can. They last a long time if resharpened and not overheated. I've had some for more than 25 years. I don't like step bits, because they are usually really poor quality.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tom. I figured I wasn't doing it properly. I think my bits are flat, but may be cheap and not the high speed cobalt variety. I will try to get some proper bits and lubricant from Harbor Freight. This should help quite a bit. I also will slow down and take my time more.

Thanks again,
Dave


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

What do you guys think of this charger as a single cell charger? I am planning on doing an initial top balance to 3.65V. I will charge my cells with my elcon up to a certain point, then use a single cell charger to get them all to 3.65/cell. The theory being that I can then trust my elcon to shut off before any cells start running away. Obviously, I will have to check on the individual cells every so often, but don't really want to get into a battery balancing or bms debate.

http://www.batteryspace.com/Smart-Charger-6.0A-for-3.2V-1cells-LiFePO4-Battery-Pack-100-240VAC-CE.aspx


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## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Looks much like what I got myself from eBay. It was made by Chennic though. Price is very identical too, hehe. It was listed as 10A max but wasn't really CC/CV type, even though seller assumed it was true CC/CV charger. "CC" phase started from 10A but charging current decreased as voltage rose. At 3.5V charging current was something like 1A. Cells never reached 3.65V according to my Uni-T multimeter. It took forever to charge 15 90Ah cells. It charged all the cells same way though so I think those cells are "balanced".

Please share your experiences on that charger if you happen to get it. Price is good at least.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Just to clarify, that the 3.65 target is a formula based on the charging terminating with amps = 0.05C. When your cells are rested (> 12 hours) 3.4V is fully charged. Consider for the long term charging to 3.34 - 3.35 resting voltage.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

drgrieve said:


> Just to clarify, that the 3.65 target is a formula based on the charging terminating with amps = 0.05C. When your cells are rested (> 12 hours) 3.4V is fully charged. Consider for the long term charging to 3.34 - 3.35 resting voltage.


Correct. I will have the charge terminate at 3.65V. This charger does not have CV stage, so when it gets to 3.65, it will terminate. I plan to be there on the first few to make sure it happens properly. This will probably charge the cell to 98-99% of capacity.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

TomA said:


> OK, this is a huge subject, but here are a few practical pointers:
> 
> 1. You probably don't have the right bits. Those golden "titanium" Chinese or big box store bits are not as good as a USA or German made high speed steel or cobalt steel bit. You're probably also using bits for wood, which have a steeper angle at the cutting edge. Get the "flattest" best quality bits you can. They last a long time if resharpened and not overheated. I've had some for more than 25 years. I don't like step bits, because they are usually really poor quality.
> 
> ...


Tom-
I got some US made Cobalt bits and some metal drilling Lubricant. They have worked so much better. Thanks for the info. I started with a smaller hole and then moved to the larger bits. I don't know what rpms I used, but I stayed slow and made sure I used the lube. I got the bits from Harry J. Epstein Co.

http://store.harryepstein.com/c/CobaltBits.html

They are Norsemen Drill bits made in Minnesota.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Quick update - I am finishing the painting on the front battery racks and working on the mounting for the rear battery boxes. Also thinking about the 12V system which the previous owner had a few of his own wires running to different items. I will be trouble shooting this, but realized my 12V accessory battery is pretty much dead. I tried to add some filtered water to three cells and charge it with my solar charger, but it didn't take much. I think I got it from 11.8V to 12.4. I put it in the car and turned on the blower and the headlights, but before I could try the blinkers and wipers it was dead again.

So, I am going to get a smaller (motorcycle?) battery for the 12V system and wondered what different people are using. I saw an 18AH Odyssey one on amazon for about $90 but don't know if that is overkill or not. I will need to run lights, wipers, controller and other small items for 30 minutes if the DC-DC were to crap out on me. What do you guys use?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm using a small AGM similar to the Odyssey. It was old and not in great shape when I put it in but I'll replace it with something similar. I've never tried to run the car on just the battery without the DC/DC, you'd probably need a larger battery if you intended to do that for very long with headlights and heater fan blowing.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

What type of terminals should I get? What is the easiest to use? I have the old circular post type connectors on the car right now, but I figured I would have to strip those off and change to some other connector.


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## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

"So, I am going to get a smaller (motorcycle?) battery for the 12V system and wondered what different people are using. I saw an 18AH Odyssey one on amazon for about $90 but don't know if that is overkill or not. I will need to run lights, wipers, controller and other small items for 30 minutes if the DC-DC were to crap out on me. What do you guys use?"

A lawn mower(garden tractor style) battery, usually U1 sized is $20-25 and likely a similar capacity to a 18Ah Odyssey. You likely won't be cycling the battery much and you don't need to worry about cranking anything over when you turn the car on so the usage is light.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Most cheap lawn mower batteries are not sealed AGM. Why mess with a wet cell and possible corrosion problems if you don't need to? Odyssey is probably overkill but at least go with an AGM.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

octagondd said:


> What type of terminals should I get? What is the easiest to use? I have the old circular post type connectors on the car right now, but I figured I would have to strip those off and change to some other connector.


Smaller batteries usually need a ring terminal to connect.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Thanks JRP. I have a million questions it seems. Have I mentioned I don't really know much about cars and somehow convinced myself to do this project?  

I just bought some Nordlocks for my batteries. Maybe overkill once again, but I thought it a good idea. Should I also use a regular SS flat washer with it, or just a SS bolt? 

I am along ways from battery install, but I go through my list of things to do and buy and start trying to knock things out.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

My understanding of the Nordlocks is they count on biting into the bolt head and whatever you are mounting, so no other washers should be used.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Here are the latest updates on the ERX project. Let me know if you see something fatal in the design of things.

I hope to be getting into the component wiring soon, so I am sure I will be here asking many questions, starting with posting the circuit diagram and making sure things look correct.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

As far as component board layout goes. I was wondering if anyone has advice about which components should be close to each other and which should be far away? Which ones should go in a closed box? Should I use solid copper bar between any components or is 2/0 welding cable OK? Any other tips or pointers? 4/0 cable from controller to motor?

Here is a list of the components I have:

144V, 700amp Open Revolt Controller - software limited to 500 amps to start
Anderson SB 350 connector
6 blade fuse holder
Ferraz 500amp 300V fuse - may move up to 700amp fuse eventually
20 amp fast acting fuse
Relay - I think for DC-DC wiring
(2) Curtis SW200 Contactors
500 amp shunt - will have to upgrade to 700 or 1000 if I move to a 700amp system
Curtis PB-6 potbox
Iota DLS-55 DC-DC converter
VBS braking unit

My pack is split between front and back of the car. I probably need another large fuse for the rear pack, correct?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

My wiring diagram is here,  and here.

I need as many eyes as possible to check the main diagram out, as well as my simplified HV diagram.

Thanks,
Dave


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

I made a new High Voltage diagram which attempts to show the components where they will be on the component board. I also started on a 12Volt diagram. It is in the beginning stages, so please take a look at it and let me know what you think.

Also, latest updates on the blog linked in my signature.

Dave


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Please check out my build blog. I am having a minor issue with some noises in the tranny.

Let me know what you think either here or on the blog.

Thanks,
Dave


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

Is there excessive play in the gear box? If you hold one wheel fixed, how much rotation are you getting on the other wheel?


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Joey said:


> Is there excessive play in the gear box? If you hold one wheel fixed, how much rotation are you getting on the other wheel?


Do you mean while giving it some throttle? I will try to check it out this weekend. What should I be looking for?


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## hamsterpower (Oct 13, 2009)

octagondd said:


> Do you mean while giving it some throttle? I will try to check it out this weekend. What should I be looking for?


 I think what he means is- with the car in gear, input shaft locked/held, one wheel held/on the ground,- how far will the other wheel turn before it stops? there should be very little slop in the mesh of gears and bearings.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

hamsterpower said:


> I think what he means is- with the car in gear, input shaft locked/held, one wheel held/on the ground,- how far will the other wheel turn before it stops? there should be very little slop in the mesh of gears and bearings.


 Yes. Hamsterpower said it better than me. Don't try to hold a wheel when any kind of power is applied.

I get about 1/8 of a rotation on my wheel, with the other wheel held or on the ground, and the input shaft of the transmission isn't turning. I'm not sure how much is acceptable. Excessive play is one possible explaination for the noises when you let off the throttle.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Quick question - What is the best way to attach the throttle cable to the pot box? The little metal piece on the end of the throttle cable does not fit through the holes on the pot box arm. Just curious what some of you have done.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

octagondd said:


> Quick question - What is the best way to attach the throttle cable to the pot box? The little metal piece on the end of the throttle cable does not fit through the holes on the pot box arm. Just curious what some of you have done.


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## Joey (Oct 12, 2007)

octagondd said:


> Quick question - What is the best way to attach the throttle cable to the pot box? The little metal piece on the end of the throttle cable does not fit through the holes on the pot box arm. Just curious what some of you have done.


My throttle linkage was a metal shaft with M5 threads. I picked up a ball joint linkage here:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#ball-joint-linkages/=k70hi2









Maybe these can be used to attach to a cable:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#clevis-wire-rope-end-fittings/=k70kfn
http://www.mcmaster.com/#cable-ends/=k70i51


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, Today was a good day.

http://erxperience.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the encouragement to keep going on my project.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)




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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

There have been a few not so good days since this last one. You can check my blog for details, but basically my coupler was not good and I need to replace it. Good news is I think my neighbor can do it right and for free!!! I hope to get the motor back in this weekend or next and continue fixing and working on various little things left to make it road worthy.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Long overdue update on my project.

My Neighbor made a new coupler and we also made a new bracket for the motor mount. All seems to be working well now. I only have time every other weekend to spend on the car, so progress is slow, but just a few items left to take care of in order to register it.

Vacuum brake system Install
Bigger Brake install - upgrading to Acura Integra Front brakes
Flush Brake lines, refill and bleed
Rear Springs - upgrading to Acura Integra Rear Springs and shocks
Brake light sensor wiring
Windshield wiper wiring
Install new fiberglass Fenders
Install Hood

Doesn't seem like much, but I am sure it will take me a while. Maybe I can get the thing registered before the end of the year.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

and oh yah, I forgot, INSTALL THE CHARGER AND CHARGE PORT!


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

ERX is now registered and I drove to work today. A momentous occasion after 4 years of trials, tribulation, pain, and suffering. OK, no not that bad, but it has been a long road.

Still more to do on the car, but for now, road legal.

http://erxperience.blogspot.com/


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## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

That's awesome  Congratulations!


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

Update: 2500 miles and counting. My adapter plate/coupler situation is not perfect but after the third coupler design, somehow I managed to get it aligned and installed. So far so good.


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## octagondd (Jan 27, 2010)

octagondd said:


> Update: 2500 miles and counting. My adapter plate/coupler situation is not perfect but after the third coupler design, somehow I managed to get it aligned and installed. So far so good.



Parting ways with ERX. Please see my ad in the classified section.


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