# Honda CBR600F2 conversion



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Picked up the cbr today. Thinking of renaming my cat Peter Fonda. Its a '94 with just under 25k miles on the clock. Some damage to the right side fairing as it had been stolen at one stage.

Plan is to use 2 nissan 48v forklift traction motors for series - parallel setup. Minimum of 72v possibly go to 96. Controller will be my own custom igbt version of the open revolt. Not sure about the charger but the petrol tank is plenty big to accomodate a low power version of the open source charger by Simon Rafferty.

Batteries will either be Odyssey pc680 agms or headway 16ah. Thats the basic plan anyway. Now i've never even sat on much less owned a bike until today so like in that film wild hogs its a case of "all the gear , no idea!"


So first question. Can someone please tell me how to put this thing on its center stand ??


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I took the motors to a local engineering works last week and had the coms turned and the splined shafts turned down to 19mm. Saturday morning I set about milling a 6mm keyway into the shafts. Nightmare job. The shafts are glass hard







. Got there in the end so i'm into scraping out the com segments and replacing the brushes.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

Should be a great conversion. Be interesting to see how you get two motors in there


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Started the teardown. Nothing really exciting but i was bored so figured i'd do a few videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV9QZD7zP3w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-SHkNieR20


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> So first question. Can someone please tell me how to put this thing on its center stand ??


I was about to start a detailed explanation and then I noticed the  and stopped.

I take it you do know how to ride a bike and have a licence and that this isn't just an ornament.

I'll have to watch the videos later, my broadband is baulking at any videos at the moment.

How are you coupling the motors to the drive?
There was a dirt bike with a nice bevel gear case on the motor. I was thinking of two pinions and one crown wheel to get a V twin set up.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/suzuki-drz-sm-2005-electric-48239.html


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Nope never ridden a bike and don't have a bike license . It was a serious question. A friend showed me how to use the center stand yesterday. Once i get it running i'll take lessons!

the v twin idea is very interesting but i imagine i'll just use a short chain between the two motors and then a main chain from the rear motor to the sprocket in order to keep it simple and stay on budget. 

Nothing exciting in the videos just draining the fluids


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Nope never ridden a bike and don't have a bike license . It was a serious question. A friend showed me how to use the center stand yesterday. Once i get it running i'll take lessons!


I did the quick access course back in 1999. It wasn't difficult, though I can't balance very well I passed first time.
The best advice, apart from learning the highway code and practicing the hazard perception test, is to look where you want to go not where you are going. Even if you know nothing about driving a car or a bike the bike will still go where you look not where you think you are pointing it.
Also when you stop only ever put your left leg down, never your right. Your right foot is supposed to be on the brake and you are supposed to have found the right gear before you stop. I hardly ever see bikers doing that. They always stop on the front brake with their right foot down and then find the gears. You will fail on that alone.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh, your controller.

I don't know how the controller works but I was advised that there are two ways a controller controls. Either it controls the power or it controls the speed. 
You want to control the power.

If you control the speed then you will fall off when you corner.
The problem is that if the controller controls the speed then the speed of the rear wheel will be constant as you hold the throttle still and lean the bike into a corner. As the bike leans the effective radius of the rear tyre decreases and so your road speed decreases. As your road speed decreases mid corner the bike falls over.

If you control the power then as the effective radius of the tyre decreases the wheel speed will increase to provide the same power and teh bike will hold the same road speed and not fall over.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Just watched your videos. Cute cat.

I hope that antifreeze is disposed of and any drips washed away. Cats like the taste of antifreeze and it is poisonous to them.

Some nutters use antifreeze to kill their neighbours cats by just leaving a bowl of it out.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Not to worry its bottled up and off to the recycling center this afternoon along with the oil.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got the engine out today and bike is now stripped of all old ICE parts and in the workshop ready for action!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGMotf9ozUo


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

On that gear selector link did you remove the pinch bolt completely? The splined shaft has a grove in it that the bolt sits in so that it can't slid off if the bolt is a little loose.
Once the bolt is out a wedge in the opening of the outer spline will loosen it enough to pull off.

Good so far though.

Did I hear you say you were using the gear pedal to switch the motor from series to parallel? Seems like a good idea.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh i didnt remove the bolt hence the problem. Well spotted. Either going for the foot switch for the series parallel or i'm tempted to use the old engine start button on the right grip.

Just in after assembling the first motor. Of the two I got from the forklift place only one worked on test. I took the dead one apart and found all the brushes stuck and the com in bad shape. Took it to a local engineering works (guys that understand dc motors fortunatly) and they cleaned up the com and turned the shaft to 19mm. I spent a week of evenings cleaning out the com slots but obviously didnt do a good enough job. On first test the motor turned slowly and sucked amps. So i took it apart again and used a dremel with a .8mm milling cutter to get the slots perfect. Reassembled and hit the power. It nearly jumped off the bench with the torque and spun up to a nice steady whine

Motor number two will be getting the same treatment next week. I also machined off most of the center locating ring from the face plate leaving only 6mm. Cleaned up the faceplate as well. This means I can use almost all the shaft for sprockets.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

So I need a little advice on the sprockets. The bike's stock ratio is 2.87:1 with a 15 tooth on the engine and 43 tooth on the rear. So i've done some maths and came up with the following.
Wheel diameter : 600mm (approx)
so one turn = 1.885m
so for 1kph the wheel would turn at 8.83rpm

speed_________wheel rpm_______Motor rpm (2.87)_______Motor rpm (3.58)
50kph (30mph) = 441---------------1265-----------------------1578
100kph(60mph) = 883---------------2534-----------------------3161
145kph(90mph) = 1280--------------3673-----------------------4582

I can achieve a 3.58 ratio by keeping the stock rear sprocket and going to a 12 tooth on the motor. Bearing in mind its a twin motor setup I'm guessing i will have plenty of torque even with such a low ratio , still let the motor spin fast enough while holding them in the power band. Most bike conversion i've seen on the web have anything from 1:4 to 1:7 ratios but most are using agni or perm motors. Any advice much appreciated.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

What rev range are you wanting to keep to?

That would help you determine the best ratio to use.

I made up a simple spread sheet to make this easy, I can enter in five gearbox ratios, 2 transfer box ratios, a final drive and a wheel diameter and it will give me the speeds at 1k increments up to 7k in each gear.

I'm sure you can do likewise and then chuck in ratios until you get the result you want in integers of tooth count.

Only thing to be careful of is too few teeth on the small cog at high speeds.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thing is i've no real data on those motors so its all best guess. My gut feeling is i'd like the motors at about 3k rpm at 60mph. Based on findings from driving the car. In any event changing the sprockets if it doesnt work out first time is a simple procedure.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's my problem too.
I am assuming 3600rpm on my 12" and something a bit more with the 9".

I have been told the safe maximum speed is about 100rpm just before it blows up!
Not a clue about how it would perform up to that point either.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Looks like i can go to 50t on the rear with ease:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....85946&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_fvi=1&_rdc=1


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

With a range of sprocket sizes available I wonder if a heavy duty derailleur set up would work on a motorbike?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok need a little bit of advice regards chain joining. Seems they two ways are rivet and spring link. Looking on the web everyone seems to have a different opinion so my question would be is it ok to use a spring link in this application?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

My advice would be to use a spring link for initial setting up when you might need to take things on and off and maybe change chain lengths either for mounting or gearing.

Then, when everything is fixed change for a riveted join. A riveter isn't complex and no doubt _you_ can make a better on then can be bought.

When using a spring joining link make sure the closed end of the spring clip faces the direction of travel so it isn't accidently knocked off.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Good idea. I'll get some cheap and nasty chain for the setup also.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Started to do some intital setup now that i have motor number one back together and taperlock sprockets fitted. Also got a 5 metre length of "10B" roller chain and 5 clip links from challenge power transmission for less than 40 euros. Turns out its the exact same fit as 530 motorcycle chain. Before everyone starts screaming that its not safe or not rated for a bike , relax. Its just for setup so i can determine the link count for the final chain and get everything lined up without worrying about screwing up.

I've ordered a 6mm endmill rated for hard steel so hoepfully milling out the keyway on motor number 2 will be less a tour de force than last time .......


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well motor number one now installed and first test run at 12v:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mip75fp6-MM


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Need a bit of advice. Fitted the second motor and sprocket the evening. Typically , the distance between the sprockets (between the two motors) was just a few mil short to make a join. Of course when i cut the chain at the next link its way too long. Would i be right in thinking that if i went from 13t to 14t sprockets for the motor link chain that it would take up the slack? Or would it push me into another "no man's land" between two links?


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## Jozzer (Mar 29, 2009)

Hi Jack,

Nice project.

I'd think you would need an adjuster of some kind in there to take up slack, the chain will wear and loosen. 
More elegant, a tensioner wheel, if you dont plan on regen braking.

Good luck,

Steve


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You should really have either a chain tensioner or a way to adjust the spacing between the motor sprockets.

The tensioner would be fairly easy. It is just a small sprocket on an adjuster that fits on slack, the non drive, side of the short chain. 

The other method is to have one of the motors on a slotted mount so that it can be moved further way to tighten the chain.
A method for this would be to have a fixed bolt on one sid eof the motor and a slotted bolt hole on the other so that the motor can swing. A threaded adjuster can be used to push or pull the the motor to take up slack and also to prevent it from creaping back under driving loads.

The back wheel of the bike also should have an adjuster on each side. The adjuster will both take up the slack in the chain and also ensure teh wheel is square in the swinig arm.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I fanially got to see the whole of your video too. It wouldn't play for me yesterday.

Nice stuff.

Is that your cat I can hear meowing in the back ground?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh that was the cat telling me to hurry up and hit the power. Looks like i'll be going with an idler sprocket on the slack side as suggested.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

14t idler sprocket turned up today so i went ahead and turned a piece of 25mm steel round stock to make a mounting. Drilled through 8mm and tapped an m8 hole in the plate to mount. Ran the bottom motor on its own no prob. Then went for series mode. Ran a bit slower obviously (just 12v) but also fine.

.........get you motor(s) running .........


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Motors running in both series and parallel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiNsO_JR8tQ


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good video.

I reckon you need some adjustment in that tensioner!


You could take a spring loaded cam belt adjuster off a car ICE and then change the smooth roller pulley on it for the sprocket that you have.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Nope never ridden a bike and don't have a bike license . It was a serious question. A friend showed me how to use the center stand yesterday. Once i get it running i'll take lessons!



No worries, Jack. Now I have to visit you some time anyways. Having aquired a full license a few months ago I can show you a thing or two.

Trade bike riding skills for controller soldering skills?

BTW: You nearly stole my project! Thankfully it's not the same bike.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Ok need a little bit of advice regards chain joining. Seems they two ways are rivet and spring link. Looking on the web everyone seems to have a different opinion so my question would be is it ok to use a spring link in this application?


The general consensus, at least on bigger bikes and chains is to use the sprink link only for the ride to the Motorbike shop. Riveting IS the stronger link, any professional can do that for you and you will have the peace of mind, since the DC motors can produce a lot of torque.

Seems like a great project. A little weird that you have never ridden before, though. You might have gotten there earlier...
Have you tried a scooter at least? 50cc is legal with you car license.

I envy you (again)...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Finally got back to a few jobs on the bike after a month and a half of fun getting the car through the test. The magura throttle turned up today but i was disappointed in the way the wire was setup. Got that sorted so next job is to sort out the back end ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9F_Ou5M40g


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well I got the back wheel off , cleaned and repainted. Also replaced the wheel bearings , sprocket carrier bearing , sprocket , brake disc and brake shoes. All in the back end of this bike was in bad shape. Cleaned up the swing arm a bit but this is a conversion not a restoration. I had to make a simple tool to push back the caliper piston. Just a piece of 50x10mm flat steel with a 8mm tapped hole for a bolt. worked great.

I've been wrestling with the battery choice ever since i started the project and came to the conclusion that building a lead acid bike would , quite simply , be a waste of time. My first thought had been odyssey pc680 agm to keep the weight down but the range would have been abysmal. Anything bigger would have yielded a two wheel battering ram. 

I bit the bullet and purchased some headway cells for testing and have been blown away with the performance. Based on that I made a further purchase of a quantity of 16 off 16ah cells to begin sizing up a pack. Plan is to start off with a 20s2p pack and work up to a 30s4p. That would allow for at least 600amp peak discharge.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Really nice job on that wheel, jack.

Looking at how badly worn the old brake pads and disc are it would be worth checking the rest of the bike for equally well maintained parts!

How are you considering the performance of the cells when the bike isn't running yet? Are you measuring electrically or calculating it?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks woody. It worked out a lot better than i had anticipated. I spent 3 hours scraping , brushing and sanding then gave it about 5 coats of matt black. The back end seemed to be the worst. Front brake discs and pads seem fine.

I've been doing some semi destructive tests on a few headway samples with an old "solar" automotive battery tester , a granny scooter and a cellog.

I've attached a cellog graph of a test done last weekend. I connected a 4s2p pack of 8ah p cells to the battery tester and wound it to 600amps until it started smoking ( the tester not the cells). Then i put the pack on a cv charge at 14.2v. The only way i could make a cell go into reversal was a direct short circuit.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

I'm seriously considering the P headway cells for the 13 inch motor powered pulling tractor we built. 

I have a question for you about your testing, understand that I'm quite ignorant about a lot of electronics but not too bad with electrics. 

You say you loaded a 4S 2P 12 volt pack to 600 amps (thats 300 per string, correct?) with what I assume was a carbon pile tester. How long did it maintain that level of load (I can't tell from your chart, my fault). What was the saged voltage during the test and what voltage did the bateries recover to? How many cycles did you perform?

Any information you can give would be a help. 

We propose a 50S 2P pack to start off. Initially we plan on limiting ourselves to as much as 400 battery amps for up tp 15 seconds through controller programming (if my partners proposed controllers works right). The normal pull would be more like 200 amps for 5 to 7 seconds then ramping up to as much as 400 amps. We have chosen a high voltage to keep wheel speed (spin) up which tends to reduce the load. 

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim, i'm by no means a battery expert so take what i say with a pinch of salt. I am very impressed by the headways both p and s cells. I first trialled a string of 8s1p p cells in a 24v granny scooter to simulate actual ev usage. ie acceleration , cruise , stop and go etc. I was expecting cell failures as i had no bms or even voltage monitoring bar a stupid little bar graph on the scooter that means nothing for lithium. Didn't happen. From there i started playing about with charging and discharging with an old automotive carbon pile tester and a bench power supply.

My tentative findings are that the p cells will support a 300amp draw for short bursts of 5 and 8 seconds. They will however get hot if this is repeated. Typical cell voltage on those tests is 2.1 to 2.2v per cell. I have loaded the 16ah s cells as high as 250amps to 2.2v per cell for short periods. I did one 60 second 180amp load. The cells got hot but did not suffer any failure. Bear in mind these are just a series of uncordinated tests i've been doing and are not intended to be scientific in nature. I'm just trying to get a "feel" for what they can do and where is the breaking point. One major point is that the cells do like to share the load. ie a 2p pack is not just twice as good as a 1p but probably 4 times better and has a stiffer voltage under load.

I'm also trying to establish charging procedures. I would recommend thatyou use as many cells in parallel as your budget will allow. You won't regret it.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Jack, good seeing you switch to lithium.
Lead (=weight) on a bike is dangerous, especially if one woud raise the COG.
The Headways are a good choice AFAIK for power purposes (think bigger A123), if you want more range than let's say 30-40km (20-25m) I would consider the Thundersky or CALB. The required maximum amperage would be gained through the higher capacity times the lower C rating at the same price.

Will you be using a BMS?

Of course that would depend on the amps you will be putting through your little motors. Do they have any rating? Or at least a weight?

I was looking into the Headway cells for another reason, so I am interested in your results. How do you charge them? 12V LA battery charger on a 4S setup by any chance?

Anyway, nice to see your project continuing after the hassle with the NCT! 
I'd think you are happy that you won't have that again with the bike!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I like the headways mainly because you can actually buy them! In my opinion A123 are too small and too touchy for a diy build. Great for an oem looking to burn up R&D grants!

The prismatics would probably work well on a larger bike like a 1000 or something. Space on the cbr is not too bad but the two motors do eat into the available battery area. As far as i remember the motors are rated at 110amps for one hour. Max 10,000rpm 

Regards a bms i'm still on the fence. My gut sides with Jack Rickard in terms of cell balancing. As silly as this may sound I much prefer natural process to forced solutions. eg carbs vs fuel injection. Sure fuel injection is better in many ways but much more complex. I'll run some more tests and see what happens. Deffinatly staying out of the steep knee at either end of the charge curve is a must. BMS notwithstanding.

I charge them in 4 cell packs with a bench psu set to 14.2v (3.55v/cell).

Very happy i won't have any tests on the bike. To be honest part of the reason i started on it was as a fallback if the car was axed by the beauracrats. Not that that can't happen in the future ........


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Tested a new controller on the bike with headways. These cells ARE INSANE!. video on the way ...........


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj8yTqZDUdk


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Jack, you have some serious equipment.

What's the story with the new controller?

Edit:

Just saw the video.

Looks nice, but at 54 BattAmps you barely went up to 4C of the cells. Effectively that was 1.4kW.
You could try simulating some load by using the rear brake (if in working condition, maybe a cable strap will do).

If things are scary today - thats the date, not the technology!

BTW, you have a security warning on your notebook...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Controller is for a friend's car conversion in the uk. Getting shipped off to him tomorrow so wanted to do some tests. Alos wanted to test the headways in an actual real world application.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

Just been looking at the bike build and controller test and noticed something strange in your chain drive. I know you are new to bikes so I thought I would butt in.

You want to have the sprocket that is driving the rear wheel as close to the pivot point of the swing arm as possible. Idealy right on the pivot but that can be an engeneering mess. The reason is the arc of the swing arm movement will alter the chain slack dramaticaly. This requires a spring loaded slack adjuster with a lot of movement and in the end causes undue chain wear.

Looking at the set up you have now the current idler sprocket location is a much better choice for your drive sprocket. I would then put a spring loaded idler on the on the outside of the remaining run between the two motors.

Just a thought that might save you some agravation down the road.

Jim


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

One of the things with bikes is that the drive sprocket is never going to be on the swingarm pivot. It is often quite close though, much closer then a motor would allow.

Normally the chain tension is a little tight at the mid point of travel and a little slack at max and min travel. This usually doesn't cause a problem as the chain is able to cope with that.
However, with the much bigger space between sprocket and pivot caused by a motor a tensioner on the slack underside would be helpful.

The problem with twin motors is that the joining chain doesn't have a drive side and slack side, in the conventional sense, for adding an idler for tension. The way it is currently set is about as good as it gets really.

Now, another way to set this up would be to have the twin sprocket as the idler on the motor mount and to mount it closer to the pivot. The motors can then be 'daisy chained' to it. Alternatively a triple sprocket near the pivot and two short chains would then link each motor to it.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Quick question. Just fitted new brake pads to the rear caliper , refitted and pumped the piston out. The rear wheel is now very tight. I ran it with the motors in series on 12v for a few minutes and the disc got very hot. Is this normal? The disc is good secondhand with only a tiny wear lip.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It shouldn't be tight.

Like changing pads on a car the pads will need bedding in and so there may be a slittle rubbing but not tight.

Is it a single or double sided piston? If single side it may be the sliding caliper is sticking on the mount.

Try opening up the pads a little while testing the drive and then let them bed in when it is mobile.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

A few suggestions for things to check

1.) Make sure nothing is applying the master cylinder for the brake. The piston must return fully to the internal rest position. Also make sure the reservoir has the correct level and the vent isn't plugged. 

2.) Remove the caliper and make sure the wheel turns freely.

3.) Ensure that the new disc is installed exactly the same as the old one and that the disc doesn't have a different offset so it runs in a different plane.

4.) If it is a single piston caliper make sure the caliper slide pins are free and the outer (non Piston part) slides freely on the pins, no allowed binding at all.

5.) Make sure that the piston(s) move freely. They (it) should retract easily into their (it's) bore(s). Sometimes pumping the piston out a little with the pedal then retracting it will free up a stuck piston, sometimes overhaul is necessary.

6.) Make sure the pads are not cocked or jammed in the caliper frames. They should fit in and fully seat with finger pressure. The pads edges should be lubed with a suitable high temperature brake pad grease.

7.) If the disc has a pronounced ridge it might be necessary to grind/sand reliefs into the pads to prevent them from cocking in the frames.

Hope one of these helps out.

Jim


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Good points from Jim.

One additional point that springs to my mind ist copper grease / anti-seize not only where things slide, but on the contact area between the piston and the pad (should be one piston in the rear as most bikes have).


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks guy. It looks like the piston is sticking. I'm having great fun with the rear end of this bike


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Thanks guy. It looks like the piston is sticking. I'm having great fun with the rear end of this bike


Jack,

Usually there is corrosion under a misfitted or leaking dust seal when the piston is stuck. I have sucssfully fixed them by pulling back the seal and with the piston all the way in, washed and scraped the bore clean. I coat the bore with clean brake fluid and use a good coat of silicone grease on the dust seal to keep water and crud out.

If you need to, pulling the piston is not hard, you can pop it out with air or just pump it out with the brake pedal. 

If you do pull the piston, a thin (0.05 mm / 0.002 inch) feeler gage is real handy to refit the piston seal when reinstalling the piston. In the half dozen calipers I've redone, I've never needed to replace a seal.

Good luck,
Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Jim. I decided to have a quick look on ebay this morning for a replacement caliper before getting down and dirty. To my utter amazement I not only found one , but its in Ireland and cheap! Almost an unprecedented event

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110533642479&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


So lets see then. New wheel bearings. New sprocket carrier bearing. New sprocket. Good secondhand brake disc. New brake pads. Now a good secondhand caliper..........


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Slight update. I fitted the ebay rear brake caliper at the weekend. Works great no more binding brakes. So the back end is now finally done i can look at the frame design.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Glad to hear the brakes are sorted, that is important.

Any closer to getting some bike training?


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## TerraRoot (Apr 9, 2009)

Nice bike there jackbauer, hope it turns out as nice as your bmw. I'm down in cork if you needs parts or a hand with learning to ride, my own cbr has done many many miles and after a few crashs i've a amounted a few spares


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

TerraRoot said:


> Nice bike there jackbauer, hope it turns out as nice as your bmw. I'm down in cork if you needs parts or a hand with learning to ride, my own cbr has done many many miles and after a few crashs i've a amounted a few spares


Thanks for the kind offer! i may well take you up on it. Just getting back to looking at the bike now after an absence mostly spent with work and getting the bmw lithiumised.

I've been looking at the dash recently and whats available in terms of an upgrage. As can be seen from the pic the cbr's dash is a bit worse for the wear.Sadly i have found little or no instrumentation available for ev bikes beyond the cycle analyst which doesn't really do it for me as a)it's too small and b)orinetated for pushbikes.

I am VERY tempted by something like this digital dash:
http://www.digital-speedos.co.uk/rx2n-10k-rpm-multifunction-1-p.asp
Although designed for ice vehicles i think it would work quite well.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think the off the shelf digital dash would be a good idea. If they can be fitted as easily as they seem to an ICE bike then yours should be as simple. Just need to adapt the tach signal from the motors and then arrange the other displays, fuel, temp, etc to take signals from your controller and pack. From what you have done with the BMW display that should be a doddle for you.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

There might be digital dashes from other bikes around.

I stood at a traffic light today and was able to take a look at a 2005ish Husqvarna motorcycle - nice green LED or backlit LCD display.

Worth shopping around, 250 GBP is a little steep...

Maybe something like this?:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAMAHA-07-08-...89?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item4aa7d911f9


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## TerraRoot (Apr 9, 2009)

What do you need the clocks to do? the speedo is mechanical and the clock surround fits neatly into the top fairing so i'd be tempted to keep it simple, keep them and rewire the electronic rev and temp clock or fit new gauges where the rev and temp gauges are.
I'll post you a new rev needle if that's what's stopping you.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh i guess your right. keep it simple. I can send you a few quid via paypal to cover the postage. Shoot me a pm with your email.thanks again.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

When in doubt......Oxy-Propane!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H58qM0ldT7U


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## TerraRoot (Apr 9, 2009)

Those needles were dropped in the post yesterday jb, let us know when you get em.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Turned up today! Thanks very much its appreciated!


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## Lex (Feb 8, 2011)

Hey Bauer,

I might be purchasing a CBR for my own EV conversion and was just wondering how much you paid for yours?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Cost me 250 euros. That said i had to spend that again just to get the back end sorted out


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

For real world costs on a mid-sized commuter (still ICE, I know, but look a maintenance) see my current bike:
http://www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/378249.html

so 250€ for serious parts is not too bad

BTW will need a new chain soon, winter driving is taking it's toll on the bike as well.
Tip for converters: look for 520 chain and sprocket conversion if available, they are the cheapest in the long run, very high tensile strength available for that EV torque as well


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Time for a litle update. I've been working on the frame a bit. Lots of heating and bending of tube steel. Front end is looking a bit more Harley than Honda but what the heck. Its progress!.

Today was really warm and i couldn't motivate myself to fire up the oxy-propane for frame building so i decided to sort out the 12v systems. I had cut a lot of wires during the tear down but to my surprise all the lights and non engine related systems work fine. I removed an alarm system that looked like it had never worked (plus i had no fob) , stripped out the ecu and some other parts and got all the wires i need identified.

I then moved onto the tacho thinking it will be pulse driven like the one in my car so i setup the signal generator. I was surprised to find it seem to be current and not frequency driven. 12mA = 2500rpm. This will be interesting to solve. Any ideas welcome

Finally i have ordered a complete set of led lamps for all the lights. I did notice the headlamp comes on constantly with the key in the "on" position. Is this normal for motorcycles? The previous owner had installed a toggle switch on the fusebox cover which turn the headlamp off. There is also a switch marked "passing" on the left grip which activates the main beam. I presume to alert oncomming traffic?

As usual i did a little video that will self destruct in 5 seconds 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15VU33vgDVg


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The headlight on thing is normal on bikes, supposedly stops you riding without it as you would be more visible in traffic. My Harley was likewise and there was no way to switch it off.

No idea about the 'passing' switch though.


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## TerraRoot (Apr 9, 2009)

yep head light thing is normal, instead of car drivers not seeing you they now have to say "sorry couldn't tell what speed you were doing so i pulled out in front of you anyway"
the engine start button on the right bar has four wires in it, two to start the engine and two to cut the lights to save the battery during cranking, a new switch would be better situated there then on the fuse box.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Time for a litle update. I've been working on the frame a bit. Lots of heating and bending of tube steel. Front end is looking a bit more Harley than Honda but what the heck. Its progress!.


Jack
I've been wondering if the bike was a no go. Glad to see you back at it.

Just a mention of an old free hand tube bending trick (you may already know it) Fill the pipe with dry sand (foundry sand is best) weld the ends closed, heat and bend as you need the pipe will not kink and if you use forms (pipes in a vice) to bend your radius you will be surprised at how good it can look. cut the welded ends off, drain the sand.



jackbauer said:


> Today was really warm and i couldn't motivate myself to fire up the oxy-propane for frame building so i decided to sort out the 12v systems. I had cut a lot of wires during the tear down but to my surprise all the lights and non engine related systems work fine. I removed an alarm system that looked like it had never worked (plus i had no fob) , stripped out the ecu and some other parts and got all the wires i need identified.


Funny you should mention air temperature, today is about the first day this year I could go without a coat. Wonderful, except the grass started growing.

*An Important Note!!!!*

In your video you threw the bike's engine controller into the trash can, *NOT*.

If the bike was running when you got it, or the problem was mechanical not electrical and you are reasonably sure the box is good, put it on the Internet, Those controller box things cost hundreds new, if you can even find them. People are always messing with them and burning them out 



jackbauer said:


> I then moved onto the tacho thinking it will be pulse driven like the one in my car so i setup the signal generator. I was surprised to find it seem to be current and not frequency driven. 12mA = 2500rpm. This will be interesting to solve. Any ideas welcome


Probably a bad idea, but I thought of a small generator with a fixed load and a shunt. Something like those wheel driven generators found on bicycles.



jackbauer said:


> Finally i have ordered a complete set of led lamps for all the lights. I did notice the headlamp comes on constantly with the key in the "on" position. Is this normal for motorcycles? The previous owner had installed a toggle switch on the fusebox cover which turn the headlamp off. There is also a switch marked "passing" on the left grip which activates the main beam. I presume to alert oncomming traffic?


I think you will find that the always on light is the low beam and the passing switch is connected to the high beam. So when you come up behind someone in the fast lane and want to pass them, you flash the light to tell them to move over. I think you will find the same thing on your BMW with the lights off and you flick the high beam switch the lights will turn on as long as you hold down the switch.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

"passing" will flash the main beam together with the dipped beam to signal someone to change lanes, pull in or pass as you don't use the usual hand gestures.

One actually uses it quite often for several reasons


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for the comments guys. I have settled on a battery for the bike. I will be using these Turnigy "nano-tech" lipo packs:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11957

I have been doing some extensive tests (including making flames!) with some packs over the past months and am impressed. First , i know lipo (actually lithium manganese i believe) has a bad reputation regards going on fire. I have performed the following tests:

Direct short circuit of a fully charged pack. Result : blown link.
Repeatedly drove over a fully charged pack with the bmw. No problem.
Emptied an air nail gun (50 brads) into a pack. Lots of smoke. No flames.
Went to work on a pack with a sledgehammer. Real mess and some smoke but nothing else.
Gave one pouch cell a relaxing bubble bath in 1.4sg sulphuric acid. Very messy.
Reverse connected a pack to a 24v 55amp forklift charger. Result : blown link.
Overcharge to 5v/cell and hold for 30 mins. Some swelling , no flames.
Charged a 4s pack with one reversed cell to average 4.2v/cell. Some swelling , no flames after 3 hours.

And finally the one you've been waiting for! Overcharge to 5.25v/cell. Swelling and flames after 20 minutes. 

So in conclusion , yes they are more dangerous then lifepo4 but the pure power density of these little packs cannot be beaten. Couple that with ease of mail ordering in small quantities and its a winner from my point of view.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Very interesting choice on the batteries.
What are your thoughts on charging these while in the bike and on cycle life?

Power and energy to weight ratio can't be beaten I suppose.


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## frodus (Apr 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Direct short circuit of a fully charged pack. Result : blown link.
> Repeatedly drove over a fully charged pack with the bmw. No problem.
> Emptied an air nail gun (50 brads) into a pack. Lots of smoke. No flames.
> Went to work on a pack with a sledgehammer. Real mess and some smoke but nothing else.
> ...


Haha, do you have video?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The cycle life is , i believe , much less than that of lifepo4. In the order of 600 cycles to 80%. Charging will be the same as lifepo ie cc/cv phase. I probably will need , at the very least , some form of hvc protection due to the volatility of this chemistry. No real brain surgery though. All off the shelf. I'll probably copy the system Jim made for his tractor with the cellogs. I'll be starting off with 4 10s1p packs for 148v nominal at 5ah. After that i can simply add packs of 4 to build up range and capacity. At that voltage i can probably afford to simply run the motors in series and forget any switching arrangements. Time will tell.

I didn't do any video of the tests. To be honest i felt that there are more than enough lipo explosion and test videos on youtube already!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I have made a start on the controller for the bike.I'm using 2 of the powerex cm400du 400A 600V parts.


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## rochesterricer (Jan 5, 2011)

I've actually thought about using the Turnigy lipo packs for a potential future motorcycle project as well, ever since I read the Lithimaics drag car thread. Just out of curiosity, where are you getting your cycle life estimates from? If its from the RC people who use these, you might want to keep in mind that I think most of those guys run them down close to 100% DOD.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey the controller looks great...excuse my ignorance in the subject, but what kind of power do you expect this controller to deliver? what is the max voltage you can run it on and what are the max amps it can draw?


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## TerraRoot (Apr 9, 2009)

at 600 cycles if he can get 160km of range outta a charge that's a whole lotta mileage before it's new battery pack time.
How much range do you estimate JB? 
also glad my needle is getting some use, even if the rev counter is proving difficult anyway.(im uttley lost on standard bike electrics, never mind custom funky stuff  )


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh the needle worked great thanks again. Pity the tach is weird but i'll make it work. My estimate on the cycle life is based on my understanding that the turnigy are lithium manganese oxide cells. I'm not a battery expert by any means and could well be wrong on those points.

The packs i have experimented with are quite robust. Yes i can make them flame but as i have said it takes effort.

The range will be a function of capacity which i will build up as time and funds allow. My plan is to start off with 4 10s packs :
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=14617

This will give me a 148v nominal traction voltage , cost less than $600 and weigh in at under 6kg. I will then add capacity by way of 4 packs until i run out of space.

The controller should be capable of 200v and 500amps. I had planned on an elaborate system with either contactors to run the motors in series / parallel or to use two controllers. But the lipo pack lets me run a high voltage system with ease so i can just leave the motors in series.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Controller done. Now just gotta bench test and install.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

wow!! looks great. seems fairly small and a compact unit...


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> The controller should be capable of 200v and 500amps.


Is the current limit due to the air cooling of the controller or is that the limit of the components?...another words if you were to liquid cool this controller would you be able to get higher amps?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The limiting factors are the transistors in the power stage , the thermal efficiency of the heatsink and the control board software. I am building a 4 transistor liquid cooled version for my car. Have a look on that thread for details.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Controller installed , motor wiring done. Might get to do a power test tomorrow at 12v.


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## TerraRoot (Apr 9, 2009)

looking good, thats gonnna have some punch at 200v! 
did it cost much to make that controller? now if we could find a single motor that could handle 200v, imagine the amount of batteries you could get in there


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I guess the controller cost about 200 - 250 euros total.

Little video update. I didn't get to spin up the motors today due to getting bogged down with fitting the 12v battery and sorting the led lights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V22GYQDCFDU&feature=channel_video_title


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Tested the traction systems this evening. All good so far. Need to start thinking battery pack and charger soon ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krvt_h5E94c


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's great progress.

How're the bike driving lessons going?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Soooo anyway decided to try out something i'd been thinking about since starting the pipe heating and bending for the bike frame. Could i pass a few thousand amps through the steel pipe and use electricity to heat it up for forming? Then answer seems to be yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWJB8ujlvhk


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The heat is on :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCFmi9EM-8Q


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Was I the only one sitting further back from the screen worrying about all those aerosol cans and containers under the bench while sparks and flames ensued above?

I'm glad you did that, saved me trying it.
It looks mad though, but effective.

I'm sure my old mechanics teacher, back in the early 80's, tried that using truck batteries shorted across a steel bar.


Are you going to be able to use that effectively to bend tube?
You could try using these types of welding clamp to make your connections.


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Bloody hell 

That's the best video I've seen for ages. Makes my "experiments" look very tame.

Most people would find a friendly local tube works to bend a couple of pieces of tube, but where's the fun in that?

I'm sure you've thought of this already, but you could localise the heating better by using some insulation (asbestos tape?) just to cut down on air cooling at the point you want to bend. If you fill the tube with (dry) sand and blank the ends off you should be able to keep the tube round when you bend it.

You obviously need some sort of quick release for the power cables, so you can form the tube without 1500A running through it at the same time...

Many thanks for the video!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I performed one last experiment with 300mm sq cable on the transformer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcaQvUvEPlY

I still think there is something to this idea.

Back on topic , i have netted a used prius nimh battery pack. Should be ideal for testing at higher voltages. Maybe a few test rides!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice video, much less scary then the last one.

Have you thought about making your own crimp die for the 300sqmm crimps?

An easy way would be to get two lumps of steel as the dies.
Place them together and machine a hole on the dividing line the same diameter as the crimp.
In one of the dies drill, tap and screw in a domed headed bolt to intrude into the crimp void. You can put in two if the die is wide enough.

Then when you set up the 20 ton press, with some guides to align the dies, the dies will constrain the size and shape of the crimp and the intruding bolt head will put a dimple into the crimp.
You can experiment, or calculate, the size of the bolt head to get the most securing dimple.


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## Multiple Cars Guy (Jun 6, 2011)

So cool! This thing already gets amazing gas mileage. Can you imagine how good it'll be as a "hybrid"? Haha.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Word to the wise folks : Don't do a burnout on your newly built electric motorcycle in an enclosed space 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sytSu8Y5iuQ

I've just swept up half the back tyre.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well, long time no update. The bike project has been on the back burner for the past while mostly due to work commitments and lack of time/money. I had considered abandoning it a few times to be honest. Caught a break last week when I obtained a bunch of high capacity / high discharge lithium polymer batteries from work. 

They are 4s2p packs , 44ah and 45-90c discharge that were special manufactured by General electronics battery (http://www.gebattery.com.cn/geb/EN/Main.asp) for a project that got canceled. They have sat on the shelf in work for the last 6 months and the powers that be finally decided to dump them. I offered my services

These things have a truly astounding power output. I'm considering splitting the packs to double the voltage but will try running the motors in parallel first to see how it works out. In any event its given the project a much needed kick start!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a good stroke of luck.

I'd completely forgotten about this project. It'll be good to see it progress again.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Been busy the past few weekends. Got the battery built and installed. Video update:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPo6LWaBhb8


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Looking good Damien!

I like the way you fitted the little display - very neat.
I doubt you will be able to see much of the current amps on that during the ride, though - numbers are too small for changing values to be read on the run.

Who will be the test driver? I volunteer! 
Can you give us a (at least official) price point on the pack?
And maybe on the fuse as well - still looking for a cheap but suitable one here...


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