# 1983 AMC Eagle - AC Conversion- lifted, 32-inch tires, solid axles



## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I never really intended for this car to be converted, but after blowing my second engine and being stranded on the side of the road one too many times, I decided that an electric motor couldn't possibly be any more unreliable than what I was already used to. 

This is a 1983 AMC Eagle that I've been working on for about 5 years. It has about 8-inches of lift and rides on 32-inch tires. At this point, it's basically a Jeep Cherokee with an Eagle body. The engine and gas tank were removed a few weeks ago and now looking for the right electric power steering pump. 

I'm also trying to figure out which AC motor I'd like to go with. I'm definitely interested in AC and have narrowed my decision down to the HPEV AC50 and the Solectria AC55. I've located lightly used motors for each model, so the price for either will be around $3500 for both the motor and the control (together). 

I'll be keeping the transmission (and transfer case), so I'm hoping that these 50kW motors will have enough power for pickup and highway speeds. I'm working with someone at a fabrication shop on this conversion, so we can make whatever gear ration will be best. 

Being that this is my first conversion, I was hoping to gain a little wisdom from the crowd. I'd love everyone's opinion on a couple of questions: 

1. For a car that will end up weighing about 3800 pounds, should I select the Solectria AC55 or the HPEV AC50? I'll be keeping the manual transmission and will *not* be going clutchless. 

2. Do I need to change the gears in my differential in order to get decent pickup and highway speeds of 75mph? 

3. I'll eventually be selecting a LiFePO4 pack, but I haven't determined which vendor to go with just yet. I'll probably ask this question at a later date. 

Looking forward to your feedback.


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## 9852 (Jan 17, 2010)

wow, that would be fun to see as electric, it looks good now.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

That is one ev that people do not expect to see
Good luck with your conversion.
Regards, Harri


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

eagle said:


> ...
> I'm also trying to figure out which AC motor I'd like to go with. I'm definitely interested in AC and have narrowed my decision down to the HPEV AC50 and the Solectria AC55. I've located lightly used motors for each model, so the price for either will be around $3500 for both the motor and the control (together).


I don't think either system is even remotely powerful enough for a vehicle that is as heavy and un-aerodynamic as yours. According to one of the many 0-60 calculators online it'll take ~21.5 seconds to hit 60mph with 50hp net (drops to 17.5 if you actually get the max of 50kW/66hp at the flywheel). To not look like a complete loser when trying to accelerate onto a highway you will need at least 150hp for a 3800lb behemoth.

Also, AC is definitely not a budget-friendly choice, unless you have the skills and means to modify a smaller commercial VFD to drive a much larger set of IGBTs like fellow member etischer.

Also - no way will that thing hit 75mph with just 50kW. A late model New Beetle requires that much power to do 75mph and even though it isn't particularly aerodynamic, either, it's definitely a lot better than a lifted '70's model.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

This is exactly why I came to this forum. Being that I'd like to keep the budget for the motor and controller pretty close to $5000, what would you suggest for this? Which DC motors are my best bet?

I was attracted to AC because of put of the box regenerative breaking and also the fact that if something goes wrong with the controller, the motor just turns off. I've ready that a DC motor with controller-failure runs at fill tilt. 

Also if I could come across an Azure AC90 for about $5000 (with controller), do you think that would be my best option? Or should I really be looking toward the 11-inch Netgain?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The HPVS AC50 will not work for that vehicle. If you didn't need 75 mph highway the AC55 probably would. If you're looking at the AC55 with the Enova inverter I think that can make a lot more power if the motor can be kept cool enough. This is a high voltage system so other costs, charger, DC/DC, etc. will be higher.


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

Wow that is one heck of a build. You might fall in line with the LandRover build on here in regards to weight. Just remember that it takes a lot of power to turn wheels that big really fast without some interesting gear setups.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

eagle said:


> This is exactly why I came to this forum. Being that I'd like to keep the budget for the motor and controller pretty close to $5000, what would you suggest for this? Which DC motors are my best bet?


I try to not weigh in on motor questions, but given your budget, I'd try to get a used GE 13" series motor and maybe have it professionally rebuilt.



eagle said:


> I was attracted to AC because of put of the box regenerative breaking and also the fact that if something goes wrong with the controller, the motor just turns off. I've ready that a DC motor with controller-failure runs at fill tilt.


Well, the smarter (i.e. - programmable) DC motor controllers on the market will interrupt the main contactor if something goes wrong. Applying DC across one or more phases of an AC motor causes a very strong braking force so I wouldn't exactly describe the similar failure as "benign". 

Regenerative braking is nice for saving wear and tear on the mechanical brakes, and it's probably actually useful if you live in a hilly area, but keep in mind that you are going through the full energy conversion process twice so all of the losses are doubled. This results in a typical energy recapture rate, depending on the batteries, etc., of around 50-60% of what was used to accelerate (going uphill at a constant speed or actually accelerating, to be precise). The actual range extension this provides depends heavily on the terrain and driving conditions, of course, but 5-10% seems to be typical. 




eagle said:


> Also if I could come across an Azure AC90 for about $5000 (with controller), do you think that would be my best option? Or should I really be looking toward the 11-inch Netgain?


The AC90 is MUCH more appropriate for this application. Still a little undersized but not by an extreme amount. I've heard mostly good things about them, and I think the consensus here is that if you can get the motor/controller package for $5000 that's a very good deal.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Go with the AC55 75MPH is not a problem keep the transmission and the clutch and you will have no problem keeping up with the ice vehicles. AS for the weight ours weighs in at 5300LB. Please look at lithium batteries you will get twice the mileage as lead battery's and 800LB lighter but if you can't get them now then go with lead you can allways change them.
good luck if you need help please call number on webe site.

http://www.discbrakesrus.com/make/fordtruck/electriccar.htm


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

dragster--thanks for the advice. Can you tell me a little more about your build? Are you using the AC55 and DMOC445? What kind of results are you getting in terms of top-end and and range? And what electric power steering pump are you using? 

And just out of curiosity, what are the details of your battery pack and how much did it cost you?


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@dragster: I forgot to ask what kind of transmission you are using and what kind of gearing you have in the differential? 

Last question: Did you retain 4-wheel drive?


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
The trans is the stock automatic with the converter locked out. The motor is AC55 with dmoc445 controler, Power steering is run by AC 2HP 220 Volt
three pH motor 3500 RPM's and it only drews 2.6 ampes. The AC motor needs and inverter to down step 336 volts DC to 220 Volts AC. cost about $300.00 As for the speed 70 to 75 it is doable but will eat the battery's quickly if this is the mormal driving of your vehicle then you will need Lithium battery's.
Please remember the lead batteries we use in this country (SUCK) The
AC motor and controler will require zero up keep but not so for the battery's and they wont last very long. P.S. rear end gear is 3.75


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I just got some final pricing on a used AC55 and UMOC445 and it's half of what I was expecting to spend. I know that this is probably going to be underpowered for what my goals were, but that just means that I'll have to reset my expectations. The highway driving was more of a wish than anything. Realistically, I'll be driving, at max, 50mph in the city--and that would be for relatively short bursts (Lake Shore Drive in Chicago; no more than 5 miles). 

The peak current rating on the UMOC445 is 278A, so I imagine I can limit the cells to 100Ah cells (please let me know if I'm wrong in that). And the maximum efficiency voltage for the controller is 312V, so I assume I should build the pack to that voltage. 

I'm currently looking into battery packs now. Any suggestions on what size in kwh the pack should be if I'm still shooting for the 50-mile range?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Let's say you'll be using 400 watt hours per mile with an average speed of 45 mph for 50 miles, 400x50= 20,000 watt hour or 20 kwh pack. Add 10% or so for headroom at a minimum, more if you're really going the full 50 miles on a regular basis. For 312 volts you'll need 98 cells, 100ah cells will give you 31.2 kwh pack, probably around $12k in SE or TS. You could go with 90ah cells for a bit of savings, or go with 60ah if you cut your range down a bit, or if your wh/mi. usage is lower, but it could be higher, depending.
Lots of variables.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
The AC55 motor has plenty of power for your vehicle and yes you can go 70MPH as for the voltage you will need 336 volt thats 28 batteries group 24 lead batteries weighting in as 46LB each. Go for wheel chair batteries if you can't get Lithuim batteries at this time, Remember down the road all have to do is change the batteries.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dragster said:


> Go for wheel chair batteries if you can't get Lithuim batteries at this time, Remember down the road all have to do is change the batteries.


And probably build new battery boxes, change some cabling, and get a different BMS. Plus with lead you'll have a much heavier vehicle needing more wh/mi to go the same distance. 50 miles worth of lead in this vehicle is going to be difficult and I doubt you can do it with wheel chair batteries.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

With LiFePO4 batteries, is there a way to add additional cella in the future 
? Or am I stuck with the size of the pack that I originally choose?

And is there much of a difference between SE, TS, HiPower, and CALB cells? That information is probably in another thread, I was just wondering if you had a quick opinion about the different manufacturers.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You can add cells in the future, though you may have to pay attention to management if they are significantly different. SE and CALB are the same thing, we are still waiting on test results from Hipower. SE seem to have a slightly flatter discharge curve than TS according to those who've used both, TS are a bit cheaper and come with better strapping, the SE/CALB stuff is pretty much useless.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> You could go with 90ah cells for a bit of savings, or go with 60ah if you cut your range down a bit, or if your wh/mi. usage is lower, but it could be higher, depending.
> Lots of variables.


When building something that is even more unconventional than usual, are the variables always a crap shoot? There's no really precise way of accounting for everything until I actually complete the build, right? And if I chose an underpowered pack from the get-go, I'd just be SOL?

Regarding a BMS, is there one that works particularly well for TS? And is there much of a price difference between HiPower and TS?

And for a conversion like mine, what would you configure the voltage at? The motor goes from 168V to 336V, I believe. 

As an added bit of information, the 50-mile trips would only be taken twice a month. The rest of the driving is, on average, about 15 miles round trip.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Your getting some bum info here the group 24 batteries are the same size as the Lithium and as for the BMS you do not need one I will tell you how to get around that if you go ahead with the project you can give me a call and I will explain it to you.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sorry but that is simply not true. 60 amp hours of lithium is smaller by volume and by weight than lead. Also, and very important, with lithium you can actually use almost all of that 60 amp hour capacity, do that with lead and you'll have a dead pack very quickly. On a regular basis you can safely get 30 ah or so from a 60 ah lead battery.
As for BMS there is a big debate about if you really need one and if they are worth it. My feeling is if you size your pack large enough and stay well within the amp hour capacity you probably don't need one. If your pack is close to your average maximum daily range then you probably do need one. The only BMS I'd consider is Dimitri's, there should be a link to it on the right, if not I'll post one.
You should try to use the highest voltage possible as that reduces amps and helps keep batteries and motor happy. Smaller ah cells will have to put out a larger portion of their rating to meet amperage demands. A larger ah cell will have an easier time. I would plan on at least a 90ah cell to be safe. You'll have no issues with the 275 peak amps and you'll have plenty of range to meet your needs. I don't know what Hipower pricing is at this time.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Is Dmitri's BMS the one that says "miniBMS" on the right sidebar?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's the one. At $12 per cell plus a $30 head board it's the only one I know of that's affordable besides doing one yourself.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I forgot to mention that this conversion is going to end up being our daily driver and only vehicle. We currently have a Mariner Hybrid, but we'll be selling it once this conversion is complete. So, being that the purpose of this build is to be a very functional daily-driver, should I re-evaluate my motor-decision? 

The car is really solid--it has been built to be something that I can pass down to my kids (the ones that I don't have yet). So the idea to keep in mind on this is: What is the best setup if I am going to be driving this car for the next ten to twenty years? 

Should I stick with the AC55 that I have lined up? Should I be looking into the AC55/Enova package the EVcomponents is currently offering? Should I pursue an AC90 at double the cost? Or should I start looking at some of the water-cooled AC motor options from Metric Minds? Speaking of Metric Minds, would you recommend their products? 

As far as battery packs go, I won't be skimping. I want to make sure that what I build now is something that I can keep for a really, really long time. 

Based on this additional information, would you suggest that I do anything differently?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Personally i'd keep the Mariner as a daily driver. This is going to be your first conversion, it's a learning experience for sure. I don't know that I would even trust my ev as my sole vehicle. A lifted truck on 32" tires is far from ideal to convert, there's a reason you don't see any of these types of vehicles in the garage or on evalbum. 

I don't think the AC 90 will be sufficient for the size and aerodynamics of your vehicle. What budget do you have set aside for converting? I'm not trying to talk you out of converting, let's just say I'm glad I have a backup vehicle. 





eagle said:


> I forgot to mention that this conversion is going to end up being our daily driver and only vehicle. We currently have a Mariner Hybrid, but we'll be selling it once this conversion is complete. So, being that the purpose of this build is to be a very functional daily-driver, should I re-evaluate my motor-decision?
> 
> The car is really solid--it has been built to be something that I can pass down to my kids (the ones that I don't have yet). So the idea to keep in mind on this is: What is the best setup if I am going to be driving this car for the next ten to twenty years?
> 
> ...


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@etischer: thanks for chiming in. You've got some wicked street cred in my books, so I'll definitely be taking your advice to heart. 

I've budgeted about $18,000 in the motor, controller, and pack. Of course, if it was very likely to replace my daily driver, I could spring for a bit more. But if there is a good chance that this won't be the case, then I'd like to reduce my expenditures on this project. 

If the AC90 isn't a good fit, then is it safe to assume that the AC55 would also not be worth pursuing (if my interest is to replace my DD). If I'm looking for the most reliable solution that a novice can put together, is there a particular setup that you would recommend? 

You wouldn't happen to have a Siemens and one of your custom controllers laying around, would you?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Maybe the big tires and lift kit are deceiving me, but my impression is this thing really needs a V8, and most EV motors are about the equivalent of a 4 cylinder (continuous duty). What gas milage do you get? This might be a good indication of the additional power required compared to other converted EVs. 

If you're going with AC, you'll be spending around $12k or more on batteries. 




eagle said:


> @etischer: thanks for chiming in. You've got some wicked street cred in my books, so I'll definitely be taking your advice to heart.
> 
> I've budgeted about $18,000 in the motor, controller, and pack. Of course, if it was very likely to replace my daily driver, I could spring for a bit more. But if there is a good chance that this won't be the case, then I'd like to reduce my expenditures on this project.
> 
> ...


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I used to get about 16 miles per gallon, combined city/highway. 

A few people have suggested that DC would be a better fit for this conversion. I was thinking that because I'll be keeping the transmission, that I could get away with a slightly lower-power motor. I'm really keen on the AC inverter because they don't deliver any power in the event of a failure, as opposed to a DC controller which causes the motor to go full bore. 

If I went DC, could I get the same range for a lower price on the pack? 

Another thing about the old engine that I had: It was a carbureted inline six. It put out 142kW at 4700 rpm (which it was never taken to) and 235 lb-ft at 3000 rpm (which is saw quite often).


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hello Eagle
As for V8 figures, i am converting a ´92 Range Rover and my motor is Kostov dual 11" with Soliton1. It can double the max power of original ICE. Low price, everyday parts. I wanted AC too, before i counted my options 
(and euros!). 
Regads, Harri


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Considering Jack's recent experience with no customer support from Metricmind and MES I'd stay away from them. You should search through www.evalbum.com under motor brand and see other AC55 installations and how they performed. I think for your daily needs it would actually work out fairly well but that really depends on your expectations. The six you're used to isn't exactly high performance.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's what I'm talking about, 4000lb, lead acid, AC55, Jeep Cherokee, 40 mile range 65mph top speed http://www.evalbum.com/1630
Here's a lithium van, 110 Skyenergy SE60AH, 3800lbs, 70mph, 55 mile range, AC55 http://www.evalbum.com/1727
More Solectria/Azure setups: http://www.evalbum.com/mtrbr/SOLE


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

glaurung said:


> Hello Eagle
> As for V8 figures, i am converting a ´92 Range Rover and my motor is Kostov dual 11" with Soliton1. It can double the max power of original ICE. Low price, everyday parts. I wanted AC too, before i counted my options
> (and euros!).
> Regads, Harri



What batteries are you using, and what will be your max battery current?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> If you're going with AC, you'll be spending around $12k or more on batteries.


Actually I'd say his range requirements will determine battery cost no matter what system is used. More smaller cells with AC vs fewer larger cells with DC, KWH's required will be about the same. Possibly a little less with AC since you get regen. Of course BMS will be more with more cells, DC/DC might be more, possibly chargers as well, though something like a PFC30 costs the same since voltage is adjustable.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

If a dual kostov can pull 180kw, he will need a 60kwhr pack to stay below 3C (and be reliable). If he uses a single 90kw motor, he will only need a 30kwhr pack. 

A pack needs to be sized for range, and max power. This lifted truck on 32's is going to need more kw than the typical ev to get moving and maintain freeway speeds. How much more? I'm guessing twice (32mpg vs. 16mpg)








JRP3 said:


> Actually I'd say his range requirements will determine battery cost no matter what system is used.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You are talking about two different vehicles, eagle is not looking at dual kostovs, as far as I can see. Similarly sized DC and AC systems should have similarly sized pack requirements.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@etischer: Just like JRP3 said, I'm not using a dual Kostov on this. At this point it looks like I'll using an AC55. I'm not sure if I'll be using the UMOC445 or the Enova controller that EVcomponents currently has on hand. Which would you advise? 

Of course, if CROdriver's prices are really competitive on his new 8-pole motor, I'd also consider that. I'll be making a decision and purchase on the motor/controller in April. 

Regarding the battery pack: I'll be going with LiFePO4. Probably Thundersky, but I'll also be doing some research in these forums on HiPower and Headway. It doesn't seem like there has been much testing on Headway, so that option doesn't seem likely. 

Max battery current will be 280A, based on the UMOC445 peak. If I choose the Enova (which may not be a good idea for a novice converter), I don't know what the max battery current will be. 

FYI about previous gas mileage: Incredibly enough, I didn't lose all that much after the lift. Prior to the lift and tires, I was getting 19mpg combined. After the lift it was 16mpg. So another question is--being that the lift didn't make a huge mileage dent in my ICE-setup, do you still think it will that big of a deal for electric? 

I'm also revising my highway speed expectations: I'll be fine with just 65mph. And my range requirements are around 50-miles--I won't be traveling that distance very often (maybe twice a month). I'll be keeping the transmission and can modifying the differential with some really tall gears. Shouldn't that help current draw at low speed?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You are talking about two different vehicles, eagle is not looking at dual kostovs, as far as I can see. Similarly sized DC and AC systems should have similarly sized pack requirements.


A geo metro requires a small pack. A truck with big tires and lift will require a large pack. This is what I was trying to say. 

If he has $18k to spend, he should plan on budgeting $12k for a battery of sufficient size. I'm guessing he needs around 90kw/30kwhr at the minimum. This is what I am running in my Passat which is very aero dynamic. 

His power requirements will be greater than mine based on his 16mpg vs. my 31mpg.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> What batteries are you using, and what will be your max battery current?


I have planned for 68 TS 200ah.That could be enough for my daily driving.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

etischer said:


> If he has $18k to spend, he should plan on budgeting $12k for a battery of sufficient size. I'm guessing he needs around 90kw/30kwhr at the minimum.


Take a look at the van I linked above. Same performance as eagle is looking for, with a 21kwh pack, AC55, very bad aerodynamics, 3800lbs.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> Take a look at the van I linked above. Same performance as eagle is looking for, with a 21kwh pack, AC55, very bad aerodynamics, 3800lbs.


JRP3 has a point there, the Cherokee and van are very similar in a lot of respects. 

@JRP3: I noticed that you've worked with an HPG AC50 in the past. How does it compare to the Solectria/Azure AC55? You said earlier in this thread that the AC50 would not work for me, but that the AC55 would.

Although I've got a Solectria AC55/UMOC445 sourced, some of the threads on this site lead me to believe that it debugging might be a bit of a bear. I haven't actually pulled the trigger yet, so I'm still looking at all of the possibilities.

Was the AC50 pretty easy to work with?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Very easy to work with, but as I think I mentioned before, it's no where near large enough for your application. About 1/3 less max KW than the AC55


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Bummer. Ah well. Looks like it's either the old AC55 or the new 8-pole motor from CROdriver. 

What's the biggest EV that you've seen use the AC50? 

Just out of curiosity (I don't plan on doing this, I'm just curious): Would there be a lot of scrub between the two motors if a motor was directly attached to both the front and rear differential? Assuming that I change the gear ration and I was only interested in low-speed driving.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

AC50 is a brand new motor that's only been available for about 6 months, the only running application I can think of off hand is tomofreno's, and that's in a Swift.
I really don't think we'll be seeing Cro's motor by April from the sound of it.
As for the two motor idea, don't really know, depends on how you control them I suppose.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

eagle said:


> Would there be a lot of scrub between the two motors if a motor was directly attached to both the front and rear differential? Assuming that I change the gear ration and I was only interested in low-speed driving.


shouldn't be any scrub with AC induction motors. Each motor is putting out a certain amount of torque, each motor is free to spin as fast as it needs to, to produce that torque.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Regarding the AC50 for this application: Brian at Thunderstruck said that, as long as the manual transmission was kept and I used all of the gears, I could go with the AC50. 

@JRP3: you have a lot of experience with this motor. If I went this route, would I basically be limited to around town driving. 

As I get closer to finishing up the prepping for the motor installation, I'm getting a little nervous that the AC55 might be a little out of my league for as my first conversion. 

@etischer: are you selling your controllers yet? Do you know of any others that could be programmed to work with an HPEV AC50?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm actually working with the AC31, a smaller version of the AC50, and most of my experience has been working on my conversion, not driving it. Soon hopefully. It feels pretty good in my 2500lb Fiero but with your extra weight, 4 wheel drive, and poor aerodynamics I just don't know. Tomofreno has been putting many miles on his SwiftE using the AC50, you might want to get his thoughts on your project. I'm sure it could work, certainly if you give up on the freeway speeds, but you'll probably be pushing it pretty hard most of the time above city speeds. You'll probably need fans and a heatsink or a liquid cooling plate for the controller, maybe an extra fan for the motor. You might disconnect 2 of your spark plugs in the six and see how that feels


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I came across this motor this evening: 

ABB H132 CM5 IP

http://www.electric-motor-cars.com/Navagation pages/converson-cost.htm#Invertor

I couldn't find anyone who used it in the EV Album. Is anyone familiar with it?


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

Well I don't know a lot about electric motors but it looks like one heck of a nice one...it is odd that I haven't seen them mentioned any where else in other conversions.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There are some ABB motors in conversions but I've never seen the servomotor version in one. Never heard of that EV site either. Looks like you'd be dealing with more than 400 volts.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

eagle said:


> Regarding the AC50 for this application: Brian at Thunderstruck said that, as long as the manual transmission was kept and I used all of the gears, I could go with the AC50.
> 
> @JRP3: you have a lot of experience with this motor. If I went this route, would I basically be limited to around town driving.
> 
> ...


I am communicating with the Lauris about their new controller and the possibilities of using it with HPGC AC-50 motor. Here is a link;

http://www.emduro.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10&Itemid=33

I will have more information available in a month if you are interested. It still probably won't be an interstate capable car but at least highways 55mph sustained may be possible.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@Kelmark: I'd be interested in this option if the controller support the AC50 as well as the Curtis 1238 does. Brian at HPEV said that the Curtis controller was outstanding and much easier to work with than most anything else. 

Also, regarding pricing--what do you think the new controller would cost? And would you be selling it in combination with the AC50? I ask because I've only ever seen the AC50 sold in a pack with the Curtis controller. 

Interesting development, that's for sure.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're worried about the possible complexity of an AC55 setup I'd stay away from a brand new untested inverter that's never been used with an AC50.
I guess one way to look at it is if you go the AC50/Curtis route and aren't happy with it there will probably be a stronger inverter sometime in the future. I know HPEVS has been working on getting a 144 volt unit made, and there are places that can make a custom one, for the right price.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

It looks like the AC50 is the best option for me then. Out of curiosity, can you point me to some of the companies that will make custom controllers?


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

eagle said:


> @Kelmark: I'd be interested in this option if the controller support the AC50 as well as the Curtis 1238 does. Brian at HPEV said that the Curtis controller was outstanding and much easier to work with than most anything else.
> 
> Also, regarding pricing--what do you think the new controller would cost? And would you be selling it in combination with the AC50? I ask because I've only ever seen the AC50 sold in a pack with the Curtis controller.
> 
> Interesting development, that's for sure.


I am not the one selling it but I am talking with the guy that is. I am only suggesting it because I am interested in possibly using their system or their controller with the AC-50 motor. I don't want to use an untested inverter either so I am waiting for them to complete their testing with the new lithium pack they bought. Then they will send me some data/graphs and also to add to their web site. 

I am not in a hurry to buy yet so I can afford to wait and see. As for price it is supposed to be priced around the same as HPGC ($4,500), not set in stone yet... If their 144V controller and motor works well and has enough torque it might be best to not mix systems. Or maybe they will send a controller to HPGC for trials? I heard they were looking for a higher voltage controller.

I just wanted to throw it out there and see if you wanted to wait a couple months to see?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

eagle said:


> It looks like the AC50 is the best option for me then. Out of curiosity, can you point me to some of the companies that will make custom controllers?


This guy seems to know what he's doing, though I don't know anyone who has used his stuff http://www.rinehartmotion.com/
I think there is at least one other but I can't come up with it at the moment.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

etischer said:


> shouldn't be any scrub with AC induction motors. Each motor is putting out a certain amount of torque, each motor is free to spin as fast as it needs to, to produce that torque.


I'm becoming more and more intrigued with the idea of putting an AC50 at each differential. What would the drawbacks of a system like this be? Would I use one potbox and just run lines to both controllers? 

Has anyone seen any other EVs that are configured similarly? It looks like the Tango has a slightly similar setup, the difference is that it has a motor at each rear wheel. 

http://www.commutercars.com/specs.html

And speaking of this particular setup--it looks like the HP AC50 is more or less the same price as an equivalent DC motor and controller. Or am I getting something wrong. EVcomponents has the AC50 and controller for $4200. It looks like a similarly powered Netgain motor and controller is also close to that price. If that's the case, why aren't more people using the AC50 kit?

@JRP3: Thanks for the Rhinehart link. I'll let you know what they say.


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## Kelmark (Oct 26, 2009)

eagle said:


> I'm becoming more and more intrigued with the idea of putting an AC50 at each differential. What would the drawbacks of a system like this be? Would I use one potbox and just run lines to both controllers?
> 
> Has anyone seen any other EVs that are configured similarly? It looks like the Tango has a slightly similar setup, the difference is that it has a motor at each rear wheel.
> 
> ...


I think the main reason is it is a fairly new system, I think it has only been available for about a year. So many were probably waiting to see how they worked. Now that there are cars using the system giving positive feedback, I think they will more peaple using them. 

There are also seem holding out for HPGC to release a 144V system, like me.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Also you can get a DC system with more power for that same price range. As for two AC systems, I think the people from Thunderstruck are using two HPG motors and Curtis controllers in one of their drag bike setups. The big drawback for you doing this is you lose the gearing of the transmission and the transfercase for offroading. You'd probably be a lot better off using both motors hooked up to the complete drivetrain, like this:










He's also using two Curtis controllers on two AC motors
http://www.evalbum.com/1396
Nice thing about this is you can build yours with one AC50 now and then if it's not enough you could change it to two in the future.

If you do this make sure you order the dual shaft version of the AC50.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

eagle said:


> It looks like the AC50 is the best option for me then. Out of curiosity, can you point me to some of the companies that will make custom controllers?


It depends on your wheel diameter and diff ratio's. This motor need some rpm's to give power. And even more RPM's to become efficient.

http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/AC-50 HP Torque.xls


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I was wondering if someone cold double check my math and my logic. 

The big question at this point is the AC90 vs dual AC50 motors at the differentials. 

The cost of two AC50 motors and two Curtis controllers is about $9000.

The cost of an AC90 and DMOC645 controller is about $11000. 

The biggest advantage of using dual AC50 motors is the tremendous weight savings. The AC90 is 415 pounds and the DMOC645 is 60 pounds. The total AC90 package is 475 pounds, plus the weight of the NP231 transfer case, which is 70 pounds. The total drive train weight in that case is 545 pounds. I am not including drive shaft and battery weight because that is the same in both configurations. 

The AC50 weighs 115 pounds and the controller is 12 pounds, for a total motor/controller weight of 127 pounds. Two of these sets would be 254 pounds and there would be no additional weight for a transfer case. 

Of course, the continous torque rating is way better for the AC90: It is 243 pound feet. The continuous torque of two AC50 motors is 180 pound feet. 

I am currently running 4.88 gears in the rear differential (a Chrysler 8.25) and 5.13 reverse rotation gears in the front Dana 30. If I were to go with dual AC50s, I would change the front gears to 4.88 gears, as well. 

Peak torque and horsepower for the AC50 occurs at 3000 rpm; 90 pound feet and 50 hp based on the graph from the previous post. With a motor at each differential, I would have 180 pound feet up until 3000 rpm and 100 hp at 3000 rpm. This isn't too far off of what the ICE was doing--definitely not equivalent performance, but within the ballpark.

Here is my drive speed at 3000 rpm with the 4.88 gearing and 32-inch tires (rounded):

3000 revs per minute / 4.88 = 615 tire revolutions per minute
tire diameter = 32 inches * 3.14 = 100 inches of travel per tire revolution

100 * 615 - 61,500 inches of travel per minute / 12 inches in a foot = 5125 feet of travel per minute

5125 feet per minute * 60 minutes = 307,500 feet per hour
307,500 feet / 5280 feet in a mile = *58 mph at 3000 rpm*

So....I was wondering: 

1. Is my math right?
2. If I am running both Curtis controllers off of the same potbox, will I need to worry about scrub/binding/difference in front/rear wheel speed at all? 
3. Does the weight (and cost) savings make dual AC50 a better option?
4. Or, is the greater low speed torque of the AC90 (490 pound feet at 1400 rpm) something to really consider? The torque and power of the AC90 at 3000 rpm is actually less than that of the dual AC50: 132 lb-ft and 73 hp, based on the following graph: 

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC90_DMOC645ProductSheet.pdf


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

The problem with running the motors directly to the diffs is that you will always be drawing large amps at low RPMs. This will overheat the controllers and probably the motors. You won't have gearing to allow the motors to spin up to efficient operating speeds most of the time. Plus you don't get the torque multiplication from the transmission so your effective torque will be much less than the AC90. I wouldn't even consider it.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks to everyone who has been chiming in about which motor and controller would be most appropriate for my conversion. I finally decided on what I wanted--and what I could afford. Yesterday afternoon I placed my order with Dave Kois at EVcomponents for one of his AC55/Enova packages. 

The motor is an altered AC55 that is matched to the Enova CEU 90. You can learn more about the details of the inverter (but not the motor, because they've switched to their own motors) by visiting the following two links. 

The Enova website says that it's a 90kW peak inverter that operates from 250 VDC to 425 VDC. Unfortunately, I don't have any performance graphs or documentation for this package, so if you know where I can find some, please
let me know. 

Fingers-crossed here: I was told that these were originally meant to be configured in a direct drive arrangement on buses, so I'm hoping that I can do the same on my Eagle. 

http://www.enovasystems.com/index.cfm?section=Products&linkID=2

http://www.enovasystems.com/pdf/4CEU.pdf


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Do you mine if I ask what you paid for the AC55 & what you paid for the controlor
thanks Tom


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Not at all. EVcomponents still has a few of these units left. 

I paid $4000 for the entire package. This includes the modified AC55 and CEU90 controller. Like I mentioned, the controller has a built in DC-DC converter and a 6kw charger. 

My guess is that if I had to buy the charger and converter separately, I would have paid about $1500. So I might be fooling myself into justifying this purchase, but I like to think that I paid $2500 for just the motor and controller. 

Additionally, EVcomponents offers small discounts for package deals, so you might be able to get a few points off a battery pack if you buy the motor and controller through them.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think that's a really good deal for that package and you should get good performance from it.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Well, being that I ordered from EV Components...and being that they are going through some difficulties right now....the package that I ordered isn't quite what I received. That means that I'm back to square one. 

I'd really like to find a suitable AC system. But I can't seem to find anything for less than $8000. And that doesn't even include the charger. 

Could someone offer their opinion on the following idea:

I'm thinking about buying one of those rare factory Ford Ranger EVs. I've seen a few sell in the past month for about $9000. The beauty of that vehicle is that it came with the Siemens motor that etischer uses and it also comes with all of the accessories: wiring harness, heater, DC-DC converter, charger, power steering pump, etc. 

What do you think about the idea of buying one of those and then gutting it for its parts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Seems wrong to take a perfectly good EV apart to make another, but the economics do seem to make sense if you can get it cheaply enough.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Are there any other older factory-built AC-drive EV's that I should be on the look out for on the used-car market?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

There were the S10 trucks and RAV4EV of course. Probably some others I can't think of.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Tesla Roadster too


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## notailpipe (May 25, 2010)

I disagree with one of the posters, I think the AC55 provides plenty of power to hit highway speeds and very good acceleration even for your un-aerodynamic model. The (main) problem with that 0-60mph link is that it uses just horsepower as its engine metric. Well assuming this link is for a gas engine, they measure HP as peak horsepower, whereas I'm guessing nominal/rated HP was typed into that calculator. Peak horsepower for that model is roughly 4x nominal.

Also curious, where did you find both of those systems for around $3500 including controller? I'm looking to buy the same thing, and am fine with used. Please let me know, thanks.


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## TX_Dj (Jul 25, 2008)

Yes, please do gut a Tesla to build your Eagle. I would pay to play, if you had a test drive day offroad. 

My vote, as always, is to go DC. Gobs of torque, proven designs, lots of support from the EV community.

I could easily see you building that car with a Warp 11 HV and a Soliton1.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@notailpipe: Sorry for the extreme delay in response. I never received the notification that someone had responded here. To answer your question on where I purchased the Enova motor/controller--that was one of the leftovers from when EV Components was still in business. 

@TX_Dj: I wasn't able to find a cheap Tesla to tear down, but I was able to find a 1999 factory-built electric DHL step van. More details below

Update of Project: 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Over the past few months I've gone down a few rabbit holes, but I've finally figured out my drive system. I located an old electric DHL truck that had a bad battery pack--just 3000 miles on the truck. The system in it is this one: 

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC90_DMOC645ProductSheet.pdf

It's a 90kW, or 120 hp (peak), 3-phase AC motor that develops about 490 pound-feet of torque (at zero RPMs!).

With the help of Bob Price from CNC Offroad in Kenosha, Wisconsin, the entire electrical system will be transplanted into the Eagle. This was a greater donor-find because I no longer need to worry about things like a steering pump, vacuum system for brakes, and heater core--the DHL truck has everything. 

Now all I need to find is a 20kWhr battery pack and I'll be in business. Unfortunately, prices are still way in the clouds for lithium iron phosphate batteries, so I'm still searching. I could just use a lead acid pack, but they have pretty horrible life cycles and they way a ton--or half a ton, in my case.

Speaking of battery packs, what is the best way to do this on the cheap-side? I think my wife is started to get a little annoyed with this project. I'm somewhat limited in what I could use because of the space constraints of a 1983 AMC Eagle SX/4 and because I need 312V. Do I have no choice but to go with LiFePO4? 

I'm tempted to set this up with a lead acid pack for the time being, but like I said, I don't know where I could put 26 batteries. 

Any thoughts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Congrats on the awesome find. Seems like a shame to mess with lead for this. Could you swing 98 60AH LiFePO4 cells? Maybe $7K, ish. You'd be limited to short bursts of around 240 amps for a few seconds, (4C), don't know what the max is for your system.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

$7000 is a little beyond what I'd like to pay right now. I was hoping to cap it to $5000. Max current is 414 amps, so those cells might not be sufficient. Exactly what is the relationship between AH of a cell and peak current draw?

I agree that it would be a shame to go with lead, but the price tag is looking a little nutty.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Cell AH rating times the max C rate gives you amps, prismatic LiFePO4 cells are usually rated around 3C max, so a 100AH cell can do a sustained 300 amps max. They can do higher output but for a shorter time. With your higher voltage pack I'd be surprised if your normal driving would see more than 200 amps.
I did see that motor can run on lower voltage, with reduced performance of course. You could put together a lower voltage lead pack, say 16 batteries for 192V to start, or do the same thing with lithium and then add in the future.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm really attracted to the low-voltage option that you suggested. At least it will be something to get this thing on the road. And then at a later date I can put in a proper LiFePO4 pack. 

Would you suggest FLA or AGM? 6V, 8V, or 12V? Trojan, US Battery, or Optima? 

Did I read somewhere that you've had really good luck with 8V Trojan FLA on your Fiero?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Not me, I'm using lithium. I'm not sure which way you should go with lead. AGM's you don't have to deal with the watering and venting issues but they are more expensive, and since this is basically a temporary pack that may not make much sense. Floodies will give you more range for the dollar, but the lower voltage ones means you'll need more of them to get your voltage up. I guess I'd go with 12 volts to get as much voltage as you can afford, or fit, and then decide between floodies and AGM.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks for your advice. I'm strongly leaning towards that option--especially since the battery box and heaters are already in place for Deka Dominators. I'm not convinced I should spend the money for Dekas, but there seems to be quite a few batteries of almost identical dimensions. 

Are those Sam's Club/Costco floodies the best value batteries on the market? Seems like the 220Ah of those batteries are enough for my needs. My controlled maxes at 414A, so I don't think that will be an issue at all.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I don't know how they will perform but the 220 is probably the reserve capacity, not AH rating.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
For now go with group 24 AGM about $120.00 each you can put the Lithium in at a later date and take out 800 LB when you do. Put 14 batteries under the car 6 in the trunk 8 up front. That is what i did worked good no batteries inside.
http://www.discbrakesrus.com/make/fordtruck/electriccar.htm


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Are the Group 24 batteries the smallest of the 12-volt lead-acids? I ask because I am running into some serious space-issues with the Eagle.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
Yes group 24 are the smallest


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No, there are smaller lead acid batteries, I use them to start my lawn mower, jet ski, motorcycle, etc.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
You should not go any smaller then a group 24 as there will not be enough amp hours in to small of a battery to run the vehicle. Go for the most amp hours in that size range that you can get.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Depends. He either has to sacrifice voltage or amp hours if he can't fit everything. 20 50ah batteries will give about the same range as 10 100ah batteries, it's still 12 kwhs either way.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Great news: I'll now be able to pursue LiFePO4 batteries instead of lead acid. 

These are the options that I am thinking about. I'll be making a decision in the next week, so any input that you have will be greatly appreciated. 

As a recap, I have a highly un-aerodynamic conversion that will end up weighing about 3000--before the battery pack is added. At this point, I just want to get this beast rolling, so I am no longer concerned with range. I just want to test the car within the drive system's optimal voltage band. 

The motor/controller is an Azure/Solectria AC-90 and UMOC 645. The controller is able to handle 414A, but I doubt that it will ever need to pull more than 120A in real world conditions. Nominal voltage of the motor/controller is rated at 312V.

Based on the information above--and the fact that I'm no longer super-concerned with my 65 mph cruising speed and 50-mile range, which of the following would you recommend. Please keep in mind that I will eventually add an addition twin to whichever pack that I decide on to extend range and performance. I just want to get something put together at a reasonable cost as soon as possible so I can actually drive this thing before the winter starts kicking in Chicago. 

Option 1: 
100 Thunder Sky cells ($50/cell) with 40Ah rating: total pack energy = 12.8kWh at a cost of about $6500, with BMS.
http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/Thundersky/Thundersky-40ah-cell-p24.html

Option 2: 
100 GBS cells ($62/cell) with 40Ah rating: total pack energy = 12.8kWh at a cost of about $7700, with BMS.
http://currentevtech.com/Lithium-Batteries/GBS/GBS-40ah-4-cell-Pack-p140.html

Option 3: 
300 nano-phosphate cells ($6/cell) with a 2.3Ah rating: total pack energy = 2.2kWh at a cost of $2500 with BMS:
http://www.alliancerenewableenergy.com/Lightning-Nano-High-Power-26650-cells-LN-HP26650.htm

Any insight, advice, or information would be ***hugely*** appreciated. I'm on the homestretch of completing this EV!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Never heard of the Lightning cells and personally I'm not a fan of using many small cells unless you really need a high power setup.
The GBS cells are unknown to me as well, I've heard of them but don't know anyone who's used them. Also I think cycle life is less than LiFePO4 since they use LiFeMnPO4 chemistry. I'd stick with TS or CALB if it were me. I'm a bit concerned with the 40ah size though, with your heavy non aerodynamic 4 wheel drive setup you may end up pulling more amps for longer periods than you expect. 3C will only be 120 amps and about 50hp.


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

I would do thunder sky. I've never heard of the other two. Thundersky has a track record.

I'm pretty sure you will be happy with the decision to go lithium. The weight savings, performance, and lifer cycle really make them worthwhile. My lifepo4 motorcycle is 10x better then is pb equivalent.


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

I would also spend the 2k and get the 60 ah. You really don't want to kill a 6k pack b/c you are drawing a a 4 or 5 c rate for extended times.
If you don't go for more capacity make sure your controller is limiting current or you have a really big, very obvious current gauge with a big idiot sector. I would prefer analog for that but it's also relatively trivial to rig up a digital gauge with an idiot light.


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## dragster (Sep 3, 2008)

Hi
You will get 40 miles with the Lithium and you do not neet a BMS system
read this (if you are thinking about Lithium) http://www.discbrakesrus.com/batteries.htm


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dragster said:


> Hi
> You will get 40 miles with the Lithium http://www.discbrakesrus.com/batteries.htm


Only if he averages 320 wh/mi or less, which I highly doubt for this vehicle.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@JRP3:
--I know you said you prefer not using the smaller cells, but what if they were actual A123 cells? 
http://emissions-free.com/catalog/i8.html

@gte718p:
--hypothetically speaking, if I were to use the A123 cells from above, wouldn't I be ok with just a 100s10p configuration? This would create 23Ah nominal, but continuous discharge is rated at 30C. And, from what these specs and others I've read say, I can go full 100% DOD without ill effect. 

The A123 pack and TS pack are roughly the same price with BMS. Let's ignore the time to build a 100-cell pack versus a 1000-cell pack. From what I understand, these particular small cells are powerhouses and are just as proven as anything else available. A 1000-cell pack only provides 7.2kWh of energy, as opposed to the 12.8 kWh of the TS-pack. But it *seems* like I'd be able to get the full 7.2 kWh out of the A123-pack without damaging it. With the TS-pack, would I not need to be mindful of the 80% DOD-mark? That leaves me at 10.2 kWh usable. 

My goal is to create a starter pack that I can use for short trips for now and then add to at a later date, so range isn't important. What is important, is that I don't damage the cells by initial testing. And, of course, cost is also important. 

Based on gte718p's suggestion, I'm also adding the 60Ah TS to the mix for evaluation in this discussion. I'm disregarding BMS costs right now just so we can focus the conversation on the items that will be doing the real work: 

Option A: TS-40Ah - 100 cell-pack; 352-lb @ 12.8; kWh for $5000
Option B: TS-60Ah - 100 cell-pack; 551-lb @ 19.2 kWh for $7500
Option C: A123 26650 - 1000 cells; 158-lb @ 7.2 kWh for $5000

The biggest unknown to me right now is cycle life for the A123 if I am running it at 80% or 70% DOD. For those figures, the TS are claimed from 3000-5000 cycles. I only have a claimed value of 1000 cycles at 100% DOD for the A123. If I am running an A123-configuration of 100s10p, then I could--in theory, draw continuous current to 700A (each cell is rated at 70A continuous, according to the manufacturer: http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products).

Based on similar conversions, I don't expect to regularly pull much more than 150A, so I will be well under capacity (I was told that 120A is the top end of current-draw for an AC-55/DMOC445 in a Jeep Cherokee; mine is a similar donor vehicle, but with an AC-90/UMOC645).

Sorry for all of the questions and clarification. It's a big investment and I wanted to get all of the collective wisdom on the subject before writing such a big check. Thanks again.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

How do you intend to connect the A123 cells? The TS price includes all connecting hardware and cell strapping.
You can use the full 100% of the TS cells but just as with the A123 cells deep discharge shortens life. Whatever you use size it so you don't regularly discharge more than 80% or so, less is better.
Option B is the way to go in my opinion if you can swing it.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

How many watt-hours per mile would you peg this at? 
I'm definitely leaning towards the TS-pack. As far as Option-A vs Option-B, that's still a coin toss. I have a three weeks to make that decision, because CurrentEVtech gets its next TS shipment in early October. 

If only I could spring for the 100Ah cells right off the bat...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

A lot depends on how fast you drive, how many hills, and how much stop and go. A quick look at a couple Jeep Cherokee's in the EV album show them running around 500-600 wh/mi, I expect you could do about the same, maybe a little better. I think you have a smaller frontal area and maybe less weight but I'm not sure what the tires and lift are going to do to your RR and aero. Obviously the faster you go the worse it will be.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm placing an order through Dave Kois for one-hundred Thundersky 100-Ah cells next week. He just got a shipment in. Being that each cell is rated at 3.2V (actually, I was told they charge up to 3.4, but for the sake of this conversation, let's say 3.2V). 

3.2V * 100Ah = 320Whr per cell
320Whr * 100 cells = 32,000 or 32kWhr of electricity

The Eagle has just recently been upgraded to 35-inch tires, so let's say that it'll get about 600Wh/mile. 

32,000Whr / (600Wh/mile) = 53 miles range

Of course, that's assuming a DoD of 100%. I believe it's a lot easier on the pack to do 80%, which puts me at a 42 mile range. 

Oh well, I was hoping to make it to my parents (they live 53 miles away). Looks like I'll need to throw a range-extender on the roof.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Don't put it on the roof, that will hurt your already poor aerodynamics. One of those receiver hitch cargo carriers on the back should do the trick. Also, if the TS cells come in like my SE/CALB cells did at 110+ AH actual capacity, and if you can lower your speed on some sections to keep your wh/mi. down, you might make it to your parents. An occasional 90%+DOD won't kill you.


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Regarding your range, i did over 60 miles on my first charge on my 92 Range Rover conversion.I have 65x200ah TS. Cells were 3.3volts after drive so not completely empty.I have no BMS but i only need 40miles between charges.
Regards, Harri 
Good luck with your conversion.We need more 4x4 EV:s


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Yes! I absolutely agree. We definitely need more off-road EVs. I'll just throw a couple of solar panels on the roof and see how far I can get out in the sticks. 

Speaking of your TS cells: what voltage are they after full charge? If you are at 3.3V after 60 miles, then is there much sag at all? 

Just added some pictures to that post from above. The fenders need to get trimmed a bit to accommodate the new tires. With 35-inchers, I should easily be able to get to highway speeds. Here's my math:

AC90 mechanical speed range: 1350 RPM to 5000 RPM

There is no transmission (the transfer case is a 1:1 ratio), so I imagine that I just multiply motor speed by pi*d, or 3.14*17.5.

1350 RPM * 54.95 = 74,182 inches, or 6182 feet per minute = 1.17 miles per minute = 70mph

Umm...so what happens when I try to get to max RPM?


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

What size tyres are those (The PxxRxx/xx number)?

Using http://evthoughts.blogspot.com/2009/05/testing-idea.html and tyres of size P285/70 R20, top speed of 5000RPM and gear ratios of 1:1, I get a top speed of 531mph. That might be a little high...


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Hmm...these are off-road, oversize tires, so they don't fit the normal formula. They are BF Goodrich 35x10R10. But you're right, those numbers are all kinds of crazy. 

I wonder how this is going to play out in real life...


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

About sagging, my voltage was measured when i got home and turned to take numbers by hand.Voltage goes lower when i floor the pedal, otherwise seems to be above nominal.But i have not tried any extremes and wish not to.
I have puny 225/80/16 but my chassis is lot bulkier and not so aerodynamic.

Harri


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you are running without a transmission you still need to account for your rear end ratio. Even so with typical gear ratios you're going to be running your motor at low RPM's and high amp draws, which will hurt your range and possibly over heat your motor. Not a good idea.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I completely forgot about gear ratio: 4.54, I believe. Or something close to that. 

So I just divide my numbers by 4.54, right? Off the top of my head, that puts 5000 RPM at 70mph, no?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

By my calculation you'll need to spin the motor around 3000 rpm to go 70mph, not 5000 rpm. You said earlier your tires were 35" tall, right? Then let's go through the math step by step:

35" tall x 3.14 = ~110" or ~9.163' circumference
70 mph = 5280' x 70 / 60 = 6160 fpm
6160 fpm / 9.163' circumference = ~672 tire rpm

If your rear-end ratio is 4.54 then the motor has to spin at 3052 rpm to go 70mph.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Which should tell you that your gearing is way off for this vehicle.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Here's a gearing calculator you can play with, just use a value of 1 for number of gears and first gear ratio to see your speeds without a transmission:
http://www.grimmjeeper.com/gears.html


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

At what RPM should I be hitting 70? Or should I not be hitting 70mph at all? 

The AC90 has a top end of 5000. Should my gearing be set so that 5000 RPM hits my top speed?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Depends on what you want your top speed to be, but somewhere between 70-80 seems reasonable for a vehicle like that. Right now you're geared for 115mph top speed  Can you run your transfer case in two wheel drive in low range? That would almost give you 60mph top speed if it's a 2:1 reduction.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I don't think the NP231 has 2-low. I believe it's 2WD, 4HI, and 4LO. 
Couldn't I achieve similar results by changing the gears in the differential? Would 5.14 be enough?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

No that still gives you a 100mph top speed. I don't think you can regear the differentials low enough. A 7:1 rear end would give you a 74 mph top speed, 45 mph at 3000 RPM, 65 mph at 4368 RPM. That's probably around where you want to be, depending on the torque curve for the motor and what speeds you expect to do most of your driving.
Do you have locking hubs? If so you could unlock the front hubs but put the T case in 4 low to just drive the rear. Rather inefficient to spin the extra gears of course.
Bottom line is you'd really be better off with a transmission.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Serious question: did you totally miss my post (#106) where I explain how to figure this out?

1. Figure out tire circumference in feet (pi x d)
2. Convert speed in mph to fpm (multiply by 88).
3. Figure out how fast tires will rotate at that speed (divide fpm by tire circumference).
4. Multiply tire RPM by diff. ratio to get motor RPM.

A 5.14 rear end will result in a motor rpm at 70mph of... 3454rpm.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Or my link to the calculator that does all the math for you


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

@Tesseract: Yeah, sorry about that. I did. Thanks for the walk through. I'll keep that as a reference point now.


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

Should optimum gear ratio be calculated with the top-end of motor speed in mind? Or should I do 4500 RPM just to be on the safe side?


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

eagle said:


> Should optimum gear ratio be calculated with the top-end of motor speed in mind? Or should I do 4500 RPM just to be on the safe side?


Yes, but keeping in mind the power required at that desired top speed. Your vehicle is going to be pretty inefficient at highway speeds so you might struggle to reach 70mph in the first place. The UMOC445 is an older version of the DMO445 and the latter has a peak power of 78kw but a continuous power - which is much more important at highway speeds - of 38kW (50hp). For example, a Volvo V70 that Rebirth Auto converted a few months ago needed 55hp to do 75mph. Needless to say, the V70 is a lot more aerodynamic than your lifted Eagle!


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

I'm using an AC90 and UMOC645 on the eagle. Unfortunately, all I have is the pdf-from the DMOC645, but the numbers are quite a bit higher than the AC50 and DMOC445:

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/force-drive/documents/AC90_DMOC645ProductSheet.pdf

According to the power curve, power output at 5000 RPM is 30KW, or 40hp. If the Volvo needed 55hp to do 75mph, I would guess that I'm going to need 75hp to do 75mph? Actually, I'm not terribly concerned with going 75mph--my goal is just highway cruising, so 65mph is ok. 

But if I did want to go 75mph, then I would need to match the RPM to the power output of 75hp, or 56kW, which appears to take place at 3000 RPM. I'm assuming this is right?


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## eagle (Feb 24, 2010)

This may be a tad off-topic (ok, it's really off-topic, but it's really important): How/Where do I insure this thing? I have a lot of really expensive components and custom work on the Eagle--I'd hate for it to all vanish in an accident. 

Currently I have a stated-value policy with Allstate, but my agent has been really honest about it and said that if this were to get wrecked or stolen, they most likely wouldn't honor the stated value (even though I have receipts for everything). 

Are there any reputable firms that specialize in EV-conversion insurance?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Have your insurance company recommend an appraiser. At least if someone hits you, you have documentation showing it's worth. Us the appraiser your insurance company recommends, this will carry more credibility. 



eagle said:


> This may be a tad off-topic (ok, it's really off-topic, but it's really important): How/Where do I insure this thing? I have a lot of really expensive components and custom work on the Eagle--I'd hate for it to all vanish in an accident.
> 
> Currently I have a stated-value policy with Allstate, but my agent has been really honest about it and said that if this were to get wrecked or stolen, they most likely wouldn't honor the stated value (even though I have receipts for everything).
> 
> Are there any reputable firms that specialize in EV-conversion insurance?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I believe Farmers will insure an EV. Progressive, (who ironically funded the x prize alternative vehicle contest), would only give me liability.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

Be wary of stated and declared value policies for custom vehicles. You need an agreed value policy. With agreed value they understand and agree to rebuild or replace the vehicle for the value listed. The others are really points of reference. They can depreciate the vehicle, as they do with "normal" cars. They can also pay you fair market value for a similar stock vehicle of the same year/make/model. Carefully read the fine print, after reading these articles. You can't drive as much with collector car insurance, but you can drive with security and confidence.

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/1010sr_insurance_for_hot_rods/index.html
http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/1011sr_insuring_your_hot_rod_and_shop_part_2/index.html
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/insurance/
http://www.grundy.com/default2.asp
http://www.hagerty.com/
etc...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

*Re: insurance*



JRP3 said:


> I believe Farmers will insure an EV. Progressive, (who ironically funded the x prize alternative vehicle contest), would only give me liability.



talk to any body shop about how much they (don't) want to deal with progressive. 

most 'stated' value firms require some kind of audit/inspection and they have nobody who knows anything about EVs. I think this is a big hole for the DIY ev market since we can't really insure for what they are worth.

I got SOME confidence from USAA in that the guy basicaly told me 'save your receipts and we'll work it out if need be'... but that's not going to cut it for the general case.


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