# Outlaw's 2500HD 4x4 hybrid???



## autodudea1 (Nov 28, 2014)

With a 70 mile trip, Have you just thought about parking the 2500 for work and just build an s10 or sonona, or equivalent to run electric only for your commute? You could use an ac51 motor w/controller for it, along with a 180ah 144v Lifep04 Lithium pack and get around a 70-80 mile range between charges. Solar is a good idea, however, I would personally leave them on the rack permanently fixed layed flat. The extra minimal reduction of air drag isn't worth doing a removable set. Plus they would be charging during your commute as well if left fixed and you wouldn't have as much risk of accidentally breaking them, or added inconvenience of having to install and remove them twice daily. Just remember, those motors are typically used at around 144 volts, so you would need a step-up charge controller setup designed to go from the lower panel voltages to the higher voltage battery pack to actually charge them. As far as your motor controller goes, as long as it is matched to the motor, it doesn't really matter as to who makes it. A controller with regenerative braking is even better and works well with ac motors plus reduces brake wear and prolongs brake life. If you look around, sometimes you can find used pre-converted vehicles really cheap. I found a nice sonoma pickup with an adc 9" (Comparable in performance to the ac51) coupled to a clutch-less manual 5-speed transmission and a 26 kwh lifep04 pack for only $5k that just needed a new motor because the previous owners weren't too smart and over-revved the motor and it flew apart. It cruises up to around 75mph with a 70-80 mile range.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

autodudea1 said:


> With a 70 mile trip, Have you just thought about parking the 2500 for work and just build an s10 or sonona, or equivalent to run electric only for your commute?


Thanks for the response. So I've definitely thought about building an s10, the issue becomes parking/space in my neighborhood for a third vehicle, and the fact that I'm in the Army and move pretty frequently still so having a third vehicle is tough. I normally ride one of my motorcycles to work, they are just some days when I wish I could drive the old girl in and not feel guilty about it at the pump. My thoughts were that if I'm going to invest money in a vehicle that's not brand new, I'd just like it to be in Betsy. However, I had not considered buying a used electric conversion vehicle. That might be a great way to go as far getting started with all of this, would just need to find a place to park it. I know I still have a TON to learn though and I appreciate your feedback.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

ok, so ever since I started this thread my mind has been spinning about this. I think that the forwarded mounted electric motor might be the way to go. The only hiccup would be making a dual input differential like pictured below. After that, I think it would actually be really simple to fabricate the rest of the set-up. The nice things about my truck are:

a) the frame is plenty strong enough to add an extra 350 lbs or so up there between electric motor and tranmission, with plenty of room between the frame spares. 
b) there are upgrades to the front suspension readily available including heavier duty torsion bars from the diesel trucks.
c) because the truck has independent front suspension, the front differential is bolted in place and wouldn't be moving around with the suspension like a solid front axle. This makes creating the arrangement and frame supports for the electric motor and additional transmission much less complicated.
d) because of the extra electric drivetrain, it might actually make more sense to run a lead acid battery pack located in the rear of the truck to offset the added weight up front. There really are no space or weight limitations of my truck due to the factory payload capacity of 4000 lbs, so 750lbs or so in the rear of the turck might actually be a good thing, plus it would save me a lot of coin. The money saved over litium batteries could be put towards better lead acid Optima batteries and the solar panel array/charging system. 
e) my truck is an automatic with the 4l80e, so running a cable manual shift set-up to the cab of the truck from the tranmission would be simple and bolt in, minus running the shift cables through the firewall. 

so the herbie in this whole plan however is the dual input differential. I can't imagine that it would be too difficult for a good fabricator to create, no idea how expensive it would be though. after that, it would just be creating the drive shaft from the fwd tranny to the additional input in the differential. worst case scenario, i disconnect the front differential from the transfer case, run a 2wd 4l80e tranmission, and move the motor and tranny to behind the cab between the frame spars and run a single driveshaft from the tranmission to the front differential. it would be completely rwd for ICE, and fwd for electric. i guess i could run 4wd with the two of them together but, ehhhhh, i don't know.

anyone know any good fabricators?

thoughts???


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi outlaw,

This seems to me a very expensive option. As I understand, the electric motor and the engine are on one fixed axle. They can not rotate independantly with that differantial...?
Does your car have a PTO? Or an option to add a PTO? That's a simmilar connection. But I guess a lot cheaper.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

Jan said:


> Hi outlaw,
> 
> This seems to me a very expensive option. As I understand, the electric motor and the engine are on one fixed axle. They can not rotate independantly with that differantial...?
> Does your car have a PTO? Or an option to add a PTO? That's a simmilar connection. But I guess a lot cheaper.


Jan,

You my friend are a hero. No, the 4L80E in my truck does not have a PTO or adapter, the allison transmissions in the diesels do however. This got me thinking though and I started looking for PTO's, which got me looking at split shaft PTO's, which got me looking at custom transfer cases for monster truck applications, which lead me to Filthy Motorsports and their Advance Adapters Atlas 2 Speed 4x4 Transfer Case http://www.filthymotorsports.com/Atlas_2_Speed_p/atlas-2spd.htm . There are a ton of options and they seem capable of possibly building a dual input/dual output transfer case to completely replace/upgrade the oem np261 transfer case in my truck now. This would be an upgrade for sure, save a ton of space, allow me to mount the transmission and motor behind the cab between the frame rails underneath the bed, let the electric motor power the rear wheels, and possibly allow it to power all 4 depending on what Filthy Motorsports may be able to come up with. Is that kind of what you were thinking? I really appreciate your feedback. I'm going to dive back into mspaint and see what kind of sketch i can come up with. Thanks!


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Yes, I have been that road too. Considered the Atlas, but I needed a transfer case that has a high gear of 2:1 and a low of 4 or 5:1. That doesnt exist, so I stayed with the original. And maybe later I bring the diffs a bit down fro 4 or so to 5:1


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Hauling all those tons via electric drive will be quite an expensive exercise.
But if you insist I have a dual-input differential fabrication ability that is a secret weapon so can't say more in public.

But as already suggested, just build a smaller EV for the commute.
I understand space being an issue, as I have 6 cars and two boats on my property which is too many, so given you have a big truck, build a car small enough to fit into the bed of the truck. 
A Smart car (while a dumb car to buy) is quite compact. Perhaps an original mini cooper. Or one of these things.


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## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

just connect the motor to the tail shaft, no gears no fuss
just put a cog or sprocket on the tail shaft and one on the motor to drive it
it will have 1 gear ratio
have something connected to the brake lights so the motor doesnt get power in reverse
it will be like driving down hill all the time


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

So I e-mailed Ben at Filthy Motorsports and he told me to e-mail scsgearbox.com. I look forward to their feedback. I've been thinking through this a lot and I've attached a couple of pictures of where my mind is at now. Understanding what it's going to take to get another power source into the drivetrain is really the first step. From there, I think the rest of the plan should be easier to lay out.

I found the wiki here and started some of the math to figure out what exactly I needed power/battery pack wise. Ouch... but not too bad I guess. I'm glad my expectations weren't too crazy to begin with. 

Assumptions:
- Total Weight of Vehicle with both drivetrains: 7000lbs or 3175.147kgs
- Desired Vehicle Speed: 55 mph or 24.5872 m/s
- Rolling Resistance: .01
- cd: .35
- Frontal Area based on stock specs: 3.922 m2

This came out to a battery pack requirement of 21kw.

Coming at it from the other way:
- I estimated that my watts hours per mile would be: 400wh/mile
- Desired Range: 50 miles 

This came out to a battery pack requirement of 20kw.

At this time, I think a safe planning assumption would be a requirement for a 20kw battery pack. As big as my truck is, this rules out lead acid batteries as it would be close to 2000 lbs or more of batteries. From the wiki, LiFePO4 batteries you can buy in 144v/10kwh packs at the tune of $21,000 a piece, and I would need two... So, $42,000 and 756 lbs worth of LiFePO4 batteries. That's a lot to swallow all at once, but honestly, not out of the question, especially if I try to piece this together in stages. 

So I think I'm going to start small with this and just keep trying to make forward progress as I figure the transfer case issue out. My truck is essentially stock, aside from the mud terrain tires I have on there now and leveling keys. I think I am going to move up to an 18" rim and a lower rolling resistance tire (is this data posted anywhere?). I'm thinking the Goodyear Wrangler A/T w/ Kevlar at 70 to 80psi? Still a load range E tire, all weather including extreme snow, and I guess would have a lower rolling resistance than the mud terrain's. Running the 18" wheels would allow me to lower the truck 4 inches helping with the cd. I had never really considered lowering the truck before, most of my plans had been to try and go the other way, but if I am going to spend that much on a battery pack, I need to make Betsy as efficient as possible. Maybe I can also come up with an air dam and undercarriage tray to help improve the airflow underneath the truck. 

Thanks for your feedback thus far. Feel free to e-mail me if you have any products/solutions to the problems I've stated. Thanks!


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

outlaw4shrt said:


> From the wiki, LiFePO4 batteries you can buy in 144v/10kwh packs at the tune of $21,000 a piece, ......


Price seems awfully high, by like a factor of 5 for cells. Even for a ready to install pack, high by a factor of 3 or 4.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

major said:


> Price seems awfully high, by like a factor of 5 for cells. Even for a ready to install pack, high by a factor of 3 or 4.


I was going off of the prices listed in this link http://www.lifebatt.com/new2/retail_sheet.html from the wiki. Are there other places that I should be looking?


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

major said:


> Price seems awfully high, by like a factor of 5 for cells. Even for a ready to install pack, high by a factor of 3 or 4.


would 10 of these http://evolveelectrics.com/enerdel/enerdel-pb4s8p/ in series be essentially the same thing? I apologize for the newb questions


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

outlaw4shrt said:


> would 10 of these http://evolveelectrics.com/enerdel/enerdel-pb4s8p/ in series be essentially the same thing? I apologize for the newb questions


The EnerDel is a better product. And I like that particular product  http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86245&highlight=Enerdel 

A while back you could buy a 24kWh EnerDel battery complete system for under $10k.

The most common DIY Lithium is LiFePO4 like Calb, Winston, GBS, etc and those run about $1.30/Ah for large cells. That is what I was quoting in my first post. Turn-key packaged systems will be more, but 4 to 5 times 

There is much here about Lithium cells, batteries and systems. Take some time to learn and save yourself 30,000


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I understand that these trucks weigh in between 5000 and 6000 lbs. Add batteries and all of your EV drive system, and there will be at least another 1000 pounds. A conservative estimate of your completed project would be 6000 lbs. If you throw the usual 10% of the completed weight equation at it, that would be 600 WH per mile. 600 WH per mile times 50 miles is 30,000 USABLE watt hours. If you can only use 80% of your pack, you would be looking at a 37.5 KWh pack to haul that locomotive 50 miles. If your estimated completed weight hit 7000 lbs, you would be looking at a 43.75 KWh pack. If you went with lead, you would have to be careful going over bridges with weight limits. This project may be possible, but mother nature is not your friend here. Make sure you really know how much this is going to cost, what kind of performance you will get, and what kind of engineering needs to happen. I would strongly encourage looking at something smaller.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

I just noticed your estimated weight was 7500 lbs, which sounds pretty realistic. That would be a 47 KWh pack. A 47 KWh lithium iron phosphate pack should weigh in just over 1000 lbs by itself, and somewhere around 3000 lbs if you go with lead.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Didn't EVTV convert a big honking Cadillac Escalade to an EV?
Did they ever finish that project? I recall there were all kinds of issues,
and the expected cost was well over $100,000. So a hybrid version would just be even more complicated for sure, and maybe even more expensive when its all said and done.


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## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

If you are really interested in powering a full size pickup, check out this AC conversion that Kevin did.

http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=16.0

Big bucks. allmost 30k motor, controller and batteries.

Ivan


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

all good feedback thus far, I really appreciate it. Working and thinking through these problems is like heroin for my mind, I've learned so much already, and it's a great escape from the other stuff I deal with on a daily basis: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...aef902-77d4-11e4-a755-e32227229e7b_story.html. 

My thoughts on this really aren't to create a true hybrid, or replace the ICE in my truck at all, it's an exercise to see if it were possible to add a second electric powerplant to my existing drivetrain. That GM LQ4 sitting under the hood of my truck, for all intents and purposes, is like an M1 Abrams tank. If I can get it to the fight, it's going to get it done, and I have no intentions of trying to replace it with an EV motor. But just like the Russians moving tanks and armored artillery into Ukraine, getting those vehicles to the fight is expensive and if they were to drive themselves in, would be extremely wasteful, so other means are exercised to move them around the battlefield to get them to where you really need them. That's the basis for my idea, I'm looking to add a second powertrain within the vehicle for around town duties and light commuting in order to get my iron block 6.0L V8 to where I need it. 

It doesn't have to be perfect, I don't need it to power my AC, etc., I don't need it to handle off road duties, extreme weather, or hauling, and I don't need it to be my primary source of power. It would be to purely handle my day to day commuting duties where using that V8 to pick my kids up from daycare at an average of 11 mpg is overkill, but just like that M1 Abrams or M109A6 Paladin, it's sure nice to have around when you need it . So, 50 miles at a max of 55 mph. I could definitely buy another vehicle for this purpose, but I have motorcycles for this already, and I'd just prefer to put my mental energy and money towards something where it could really make a difference. 

There's an endless amount of information out there and I am just getting started. Babysteps... Step 1) try to make my truck more efficient as it is. Step 2) see what it would take engineering wise to get another source of power into my powertrain. Step 3) design the EV powerplant and figure out how to incorporate it into the space available between the frame and underneath the bed of my truck. Sounds like fun to me


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

One more thing to consider. If you just attach an electric motor, then you will have to idle the gas engine all the time, even when using the electric power only, in order to have power steering and power brakes. Otherwise you will need to add a vacuum pump and change your mechanical power steering pump with an electric one. 

Your idea may work but it won't be practical for a 70mi range. Maybe for a 30 miles goal ?

The more weight you add(batteries), the more inefficient the system become. 

Those are just things to consider. I will like to see that you build it and are happy with it. 

Have fun.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

TEV said:


> One more thing to consider. If you just attach an electric motor, then you will have to idle the gas engine all the time, even when using the electric power only, in order to have power steering and power brakes. Otherwise you will need to add a vacuum pump and change your mechanical power steering pump with an electric one.
> 
> Your idea may work but it won't be practical for a 70mi range. Maybe for a 30 miles goal ?
> 
> ...


 Thanks! I appreciate the heads up about the power steering. That seems like an easy fix. I'm definitely still working out the range, battery pack, etc. Baby steps. 

Right now on the short list are:
- Lighter 18" wheels and lower rolling resistance tires
- Lower the truck 4"
- Either build a custom tilt bed, or hopefully this guy http://www.stealthdumptrucks.com/ will sell me just the hinges to his kit.
- Custom exhaust with new catalytic converters (truck just crested 200,000 miles with the wife driving it while I've been deployed so I think it is probably time for some new ones) and mufflers that dump behind the front wheel wells, or as far forward as possible. Idea behind that would be to clear as much room as possible on the right side of the truck for the additional powertrain. The stock exhaust just takes up space and adds weight.

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming!


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

Noob here also contemplating a 4x4 setup hybrid to my Land Rover 88..

I like the PTO idea given what you are trying to do... You might put a call into Muncie. If I remember how PTO's work, most require you shift the transfercase into neutral, that's when the shaft starts turning to power things like a winch or pump for hydraulics. Also note that it is an output shaft... I'm not sure how it'd hold up as a input since the gears are cut expecting the forces in the opposite direction instead of straight cut.

But I know muncie has clutched pto's for work trucks. I think they are tied to the transmission and given yours is a 'work truck', I bet they have an option. I'm also thinking if you have regen capable controller and electric motor, you could use it to charge the battery bank when using the ICE by itself. I was thinking then I use the electric motor as more of a overboost and downsize the ICE to keep the battery bank smaller.. No idea if you can incorporate cylinder deactivation... The new Haltech ICE engine controller might and I believe it can control your transmission as well.

One hairbrained idea I had too was like your differential. Look at some of the toy electric cars. The differential has an additional input not the front like your diagram, but on the top and to the side to mount an electric motor to the live axle. So I was thinking of using a small ICE and normal 4x4 drivetrain, and with solid axles using two electric motors mounted to the axle housing. That way I can theoretically stick the transmission in neutral and run on pure electric until the batteries run down to handle my short commute. 

http://www.starstw.com/picture/transmission-axle-differential-drive.jpg

Oh, and for your differential idea, look at a 6x6 truck. It has a pass through to power the second rear axle. Some old military suppliers might have them. 

Another... Atlas transfer cases can be 4 spds now. Advanceadapters.com makes them. If I was going for a pure electric, I was thinking this might be something to hook directly to the electric motor and delete a transmission entirely.... but it'd be missing a reverse. So...

Transmission option: The Brinn competitor (http://www.brinninc.com/brinnpredator.html). 2 spd with reverse... 45 lbs lots of gear options and rebuildable. Built for racing circle track and able to handle some serious torque. Much smaller than a powerglide and lighter.

Cost though... ugh.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

MightyAA said:


> The new Haltech ICE engine controller might and I believe it can control your transmission as well.
> 
> Transmission option: The Brinn competitor (http://www.brinninc.com/brinnpredator.html). 2 spd with reverse... 45 lbs lots of gear options and rebuildable.


Thanks for the reply, some good ideas there, I'm definitely going to look into the haltech controller.

So I think I have a line on a transfer case option that might just be perfect. Still working with the engineer to flesh the details out, but as soon as I have some fidelity I'll post it up. Part of the problem is figuring out just what I can use to power this old girl. I'm not too concerned about gearing at the moment, I'm definitely planning on running a 2 or 3 speed manual shifting powerglide or similar, and I'll be able to tailor the internal gearing of the transmission and transfer case to whatever I need. Having said that, I haven't found too much information on motors big enough for my needs. I'm sure they are out there, but would anyone mind pointing me in some appropriate directions? The capabilities of the motor will shape what gearing I choose, which will then define the requirements for the transfer case and tranny. 

I've read a few threads now where people aren't too excited to do the math for others, understandable , so I went ahead and found the link to the free online version of the "build your own electric vehicle" book and made my torque requirements map. I've posted a picture and I can post my excel spreadsheet if need be, but does anyone know if I can find a motor even close to meeting these requirements, even on level ground? There's good data for the AC5X's, not so much for the AC 7X's. Anything else that I should be looking at? I'll be honest, I could really use some help determining what would be a good fit. Thanks a lot.

- Outlaw


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

EV West has a lot of different motors and their dyno sheets. What units are your torque numbers? Seems massive if it's either Nm or Joules or ft/lbs.

Another I've been stumped by is finding a IP67 (submersible to 5m) rated motor... my theoretical build will see mud, deep snow and water crossing... not just dust. Most motors/controllers I see can't handle the wet. Maybe someone here knows how to deal with that... I don't; just in that research stage though too and don't have real answers for you.


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## itchyback (May 28, 2014)

this sounds like a tough first project. Im a noob so my opinion aint worth much. But i think it sounds tricky, especially getting dual inputs on your taco and such. Im down for the intellectual journey, that part sounds like fun, the practicallity of it though... not so much. 
I fear your beloved betsy may become your hated ex.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

MightyAA said:


> EV West has a lot of different motors and their dyno sheets. What units are your torque numbers? Seems massive if it's either Nm or Joules or ft/lbs.
> 
> Another I've been stumped by is finding a IP67 (submersible to 5m) rated motor... my theoretical build will see mud, deep snow and water crossing... not just dust. Most motors/controllers I see can't handle the wet. Maybe someone here knows how to deal with that... I don't; just in that research stage though too and don't have real answers for you.


Hey man, did you check that EV West site??? They have an Siemens Azure AC Induction 3 Phase Motor 1PV5135 4WS14 listed for $3495 that's IP67! Torque holds flat for that motor from zero to 4000 rpm. 

http://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=257 

I did the math for that motor at it's continous power rating of 67 KW and 160 Nm at 248A and got the following graph. With a 2-speed powerglide with 2:1 and 1:1 internal ratios, and a 3:1 lower gear on my transfer case, I think it comes out almost perfect. I would definitely need the right controller though.

1 Low: 4000 rpm = 16.7 mph at greater than 25% grade or 5mph/sec
2 Low: 4000 rpm = 33.5 mph at greater than 10% grade or 2mph/sec
1 High: 4000 rpm = 50 mph at greater than 5% grade or 1mph/sec
2 High: 4000 rpm = max speed of 67 mph on level ground

So pretty much like 18 wheeler gears  The transfer case is push button, so I could go from 1 Low to 2 Low to 2 High for maximum acceleration. 1 High actually seems like a really good gear as well, it will take me from zero to a max of about 80 mph on level ground. 

Thoughts? Feedback?


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

itchyback said:


> this sounds like a tough first project. Im a noob so my opinion aint worth much. But i think it sounds tricky, especially getting dual inputs on your taco and such. Im down for the intellectual journey, that part sounds like fun, the practicallity of it though... not so much.
> I fear your beloved betsy may become your hated ex.


You might be right. I am interested in the intellectual journey though. One consideration is that I think I will be able to "build the plane in flight" since I'm not removing the ICE powerplant. I can build it and test it a piece at a time.


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

Just keep in mind with that Siemans motor, it was part of an auction block. No warranty or support. The controller that goes with it is not IP67...

Have you considered the electric motor between the tranny and tcase? It looks like it'd be a straight forward way to go without half the fuss. That Siemens has a front shaft too. Watch those EV West video's on how they couple together two motors. You have the wheelbase I do not. 

Theoretical thoughts. If you are set up that way and can get the controller to play nice, the transmission could be placed in neutral, ICE off, and the electric motor just pushes the transfercase which will be 1:1 direct drive in high.. Get a twin stick setup and you also have available 2 low. With manual hubs, the front rotating mass could be uncoupled, so the ICE and all those accessories just become dead weight without becoming parasitic drag too. 

You won't have reverse in electric mode, but you still have that ICE when you back up . Maybe to simplify, you just have the ICE idling so it keeps running the pumps and whatnots. No idea how to get the controllers talking to each other, but I'd also imagine you'll have to switch to fly-by-wire throttle (Lokar has a pedal set). That haltech controller might work if I understand it right, simply because it's so programmable you can run different setups at the push of a button.

oh... and if you are dreaming ... Look at the new ford crate engines. V6 or I4, turbo, direct injection just like the new F-150. Build it for big boost, stick big turbos on because if you put a electric motor between the turbine and the compressor, you are no longer relying entirely on exhaust to spool it up.. So you can go big without lag. Added bonus; waste gasses that would normally be bypassed can continue to spin the motor/generator... that means a range extender for your batteries. Additional bonus; Seperating the turbine and compressor means cooler air being fed into the ICE thus more air. With a programmable controller, you can set up a economy fuel map and a performance one. Look at the formula racing stuff to get an idea of what I'm talking about.


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

Oh... one to watch out for though is not over spinning the electric motor.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

MightyAA said:


> Have you considered the electric motor between the tranny and tcase? It looks like it'd be a straight forward way to go without half the fuss. That Siemens has a front shaft too. Watch those EV West video's on how they couple together two motors. You have the wheelbase I do not.


wooow... some more good ideas man, thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to "walk the dog" with me as far as brainstorming goes. I did see that about the siemens. I think my initial guess of an AC76 in this application would also work based off of it's peak numbers, but I need to see a continuous liquid cooled graph in order to have a better idea, and they haven't released that yet. I am still a little ways away from actually putting money towards the motor yet though, so no rush. just having done the math for the siemens (assuming I did it correctly) assures me that there are motors out there that can meet the goals of my project.

as far as having the motor between the oem tranny and transfer case, I thought about it briefly, but there would be some other interesting issues with that set-up for me. 

1) if I were to put the electric motor between the tranny and transfer case, it would significantly extend how long the transfer case goes back under the truck. doesn't sound like a big deal, but the support mount cross bar for my torsion bars sits right behind the transfer case (see pic 2). so I would have to either raise the truck at least 7" or more to have that crossbar low enough to pass the electric motor over it, or I could change over to a leaf spring solid front axle, but ehhh..., that's big money going to places that I don't really need it or want it. 

2) with the electric motor behind the tranny, that's a permanent change. I would have to be fully committed to that motor because if I wanted to change, it would take a complete redo of the set-up. with a second input into the transfer case, I would have almost infinite adjustability for tranny motor combinations. plus, I can build that set-up in the truck without letting it sit for a while so downtime would be minimal, I can just keep driving it, and "build the plane in flight". 

3) I imagine that with the e-motor between the tranny, it would be hard to access and service if need be. There are some awesome solutions for that problem if I have the e-motor underneath the bed (see pic 1, power hydraulic bed lift).

4) it would take some thought to find the room for liquid cooling the motor due to the heat it would generate. there are figuratively speaking "acres" of space under my long bed for the tranny, motor, cooling, batteries, accessories, whatever. 

I will put some more thought towards that though. 

hehe, I do have plans for the LQ4 under the hood of my truck, and they don't involve replacing it  the problem with the ford and mazda direct injection motors is fuel head room. they don't make replacement plug and play larger DI injectors for those motors because the injectors cost so much to develop. so to get enough fuel to run big power from a big turbo, you have to run an auxiliary fuel set-up http://www.speedperf6rmanc3.com/pro...rt-injection-fuel-kit-for-mazda-mzr-disi.html . been down that road in some other platforms, and it's definitely a headache. nah... if I get this e-motor set-up working, I will not hold back with my iron block V8 (think big big big power). 

having an e-motor in my truck would lend itself well to having another electric motor spin up the turbo compressor. the only problem that I can think of would be getting enough shaft speed to push big boost with a big turbo. something to think about, definitely a long ways off though.

thanks for your input!


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## MightyAA (Nov 19, 2014)

outlaw4shrt said:


> wooow... some more good ideas man, thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to "walk the dog" with me as far as brainstorming goes.


lol... I'm actually further behind the learning curve than you are on the EV stuff. I've just been thinking on what to do with my basket case Land Rover I've literally dragged around from house to house over the last 15 years hatching out evil genius schemes along the way. I have not done this kind of conversion... just thought about it. So maybe someone who actually knows something can blow holes through my thoughts.

Oh, and I was thinking of the 'between' concept for you because you could use the existing drivetrain. New shafts, linkages, mounts, etc. and it could be undone. Just use a bedbox for the batteries to start. Get it working, figure this stuff out, then go in deeper and deeper tweaking your frankenstein. KISS principle... start at the basics before going full custom.


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

MightyAA said:


> lol... I'm actually further behind the learning curve than you are on the EV stuff. I've just been thinking on what to do with my basket case Land Rover I've literally dragged around from house to house over the last 15 years hatching out evil genius schemes along the way. I have not done this kind of conversion... just thought about it. So maybe someone who actually knows something can blow holes through my thoughts.


I doubt it man, I've just been trying to read a lot. major posted up this link a couple of weeks ago and I've just been spending time going through it and asking questions: http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_14178832132737&key=b837b1d2c3ad980d9040731510afd417&libId=2f0937c9-dbdf-4c48-8091-dde07866a04d&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diyelectriccar.com%2Fforums%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D132250%26highlight%3Dcalculate%2Bmotor&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fev-bg.com%2Fwordpress1%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F08%2Fbuild_your_own_electric_vehicle.pdf&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diyelectriccar.com%2Fforums%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D1292642&title=Calculate%20DC%20motor%20specifications%20(torque%20power%20etc)%20for%20electric%20vehicle%3F%20-%20DIY%20Electric%20Car%20Forums&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fev-bg.com%2Fwordpress1%2Fwp-conte...ic_vehicle.pdf

A big part of my plan is carrying around a 3000watt solar array with me and the attached picture is what I've come up with so far. I figure if I can include the solar panel array in my set-up, then I can get the government to subsidize some of my costs  Seriously though, if the solar power generator for my house just happened to be built into my truck, should that matter?

I've been trying to vet my ideas here on this forum, anyone have any feedback on this potential set-up? 

also, I did the torque map for Betsy with the AC76 at peak. anyone have a continuous dyno for it?


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

outlaw4shrt said:


> A big part of my plan is carrying around a 3000watt solar array with me and the attached picture is what I've come up with so far. I figure if I can include the solar panel array in my set-up, then I can get the government to subsidize some of my costs  Seriously though, if the solar power generator for my house just happened to be built into my truck, should that matter?
> 
> I've been trying to vet my ideas here on this forum, anyone have any feedback on this potential set-up?
> 
> also, I did the torque map for Betsy with the AC76 at peak. anyone have a continuous dyno for it?


I have learned that alternative energy is an excellent way to charge EV batteries, but that the only way to break even or improve efficiency of an EV with it is to not have it attached to your car. Plug into your windmill or solar array when you get home, and drive away unencumbered when you hit the road. If you drove very short distances with a solar array attached to your truck, and then parked in the sun for long periods of time, there may be some potential gain, but whenever you do drive it it will certainly be less efficient because if the weight and aerodynamic drag. Solar energy is very interesting to me... what is the surface area of 3000 watts of solar panels? How much does 3000 watts of panels weigh?


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

evmetro said:


> I have learned that alternative energy is an excellent way to charge EV batteries, but that the only way to break even or improve efficiency of an EV with it is to not have it attached to your car. Plug into your windmill or solar array when you get home, and drive away unencumbered when you hit the road. If you drove very short distances with a solar array attached to your truck, and then parked in the sun for long periods of time, there may be some potential gain, but whenever you do drive it it will certainly be less efficient because if the weight and aerodynamic drag. Solar energy is very interesting to me... what is the surface area of 3000 watts of solar panels? How much does 3000 watts of panels weigh?


so I'm factoring on scale here, at least in my mind.

My truck is 246.6 in long, 79.7 in wide, and would be 76 in tall with the ladder rack (after I lower the truck 4 inches), so a total frontal area of about 39 ft2.

3180 watts of solar panels would be a 12 x 265watt panels each weighing 44.6 lbs. Total weight would be 535 lbs + the ladder rack and mounting stuff which is about an additional 100 lbs, so lets say 650 lbs all total. 

surface area, there would be 8 on top, and 2 on each side folded down, one underneath the other. so I feel like I can effectively discount the 4 panels on the side, because when folded down they would still be inside the dimensions of the ladder rack and the overall width of my truck. so the total surface area on top laying flat would be 19,800 in2 or 137.5 ft2 if my math is right.

right now, unloaded my truck gets 13mpg on the highway at 70 mph and about 11 mpg towing a combined total of 8,000 lbs at 70 mph. assuming I got anything over 11 mpg with the ICE, unloaded (but with the solar panel, batteries, components, EV motor, etc.) I would consider that a win.

for my daily commute of about 70 miles round trip, I could run all electric on the back roads consuming approximately half of my 3150 Ah battery pack. I'd park it, unfold the other 4 solar panels, raise the bed 23 degrees to optimize the radiation on the panels, and just let it sit and feed itself like a plant assuming it was a clear day. I spend between 12 and 14 hours at work everyday, assuming most of that was day light (depending on the season) and the truck didn't move (just rode my bike around all day to pt, chow, the motorpool, etc.) it would recharge the entire battery pack over the course of the day. so my net energy usage over the course of the day would be about 1600 ah... maybe.

lets say I get restationed someplace where I am closer to post, say 20 miles away, in theory, I could drive to work on a 2/3 charged pack, recharge the entire pack over the course of the day, and then use 1/3 of the pack on the way home, repeat. net energy usage from the grid/pump = 0 for my 7500 lbs 2003 2500HD Silverado 4x4 extended cab long bed truck... maybe.

As to why I would put the solar array on my truck and not leave it at the house, I'll let you think through the possibilities of having a work truck with a 3160 watt solar array on it and 3150 Ah battery pack able to connect to a grid, discharge at 120V/240V at a job site, and recharge itself in 16 hours on solar alone all the while still having a payload capacity of 2500 lbs (assuming I just kept it on the oem leaf springs) able to tow 7500 lbs worth of equipment on the hitch (I couldn't use a 5th wheel with all the solar stuff) at 70 mph getting around 10 or 11 mpg with the ICE... maybe.


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## azdeltawye (Dec 30, 2008)

outlaw4shrt said:


> ...assuming I got anything over 11 mpg with the ICE, unloaded (but with the solar panel, batteries, components, EV motor, etc.) I would consider that a win....


If you need to drive such a large vehicle and you are looking for better efficiency why not just get a truck with a diesel?

Adding thousands of pounds of batteries and motors to make a Rube Goldberg Hybrid will only yield less than ideal performance in ICE or EV mode...


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

I've put some more thought into the truck recently (see below), would welcome some feedback. 

I got a quote for a dual input Atlas transfer case from Advanced Adapters. I plan on putting the order in once I know when I'll be headed back to the states. Turn-around is 14 to 16 weeks.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

There are a lot of things that don't add up right. I don't know the math for your specific AGMs, but 7500 lbs and AGMs do not equal 60 miles. 7500 lbs and 56 KWh of lithium equals 60 miles, but the solar panels will take several days to recharge enough to go another 60 miles. I am not certain that the 1239 controller will haul this locomotive at 60 mph for an hour either. If it will, I suspect that you will need some serious cooling. That motor is sealed and gets pretty warm on my subcompact economy car, so I have a strong feeling that you are going to have some serious heat there. The controller will probably cut back. My formal education stopped after 3 years of high school, so I am no engineer, but I think this whole project is just too far out there. I like to dream big like this too, but after a few years on this forum and lotsa reading, I have had to reign it in a little bit so that my builds get along with Mother Nature a little better. I love to see people dream big, but I would do some more reading before spending any money. There is a fantastic resource right here on the forum that taught me a ton of excellent stuff, and it is the alternators and free energy thread. Some folks feel offended to be referred to it, but even if you already know the basics, it is extremely educational.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

evmetro said:


> There are a lot of things that don't add up right. I don't know the math for your specific AGMs, but 7500 lbs and AGMs do not equal 60 miles. 7500 lbs and 56 KWh of lithium equals 60 miles, but the solar panels will take several days to recharge enough to go another 60 miles. I am not certain that the 1239 controller will haul this locomotive at 60 mph for an hour either. If it will, I suspect that you will need some serious cooling. That motor is sealed and gets pretty warm on my subcompact economy car, so I have a strong feeling that you are going to have some serious heat there. The controller will probably cut back. My formal education stopped after 3 years of high school, so I am no engineer, but I think this whole project is just too far out there. I like to dream big like this too, but after a few years on this forum and lotsa reading, I have had to reign it in a little bit so that my builds get along with Mother Nature a little better. I love to see people dream big, but I would do some more reading before spending any money. There is a fantastic resource right here on the forum that taught me a ton of excellent stuff, and it is the alternators and free energy thread. Some folks feel offended to be referred to it, but even if you already know the basics, it is extremely educational.


That's very good advice!


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

If you want a 60-70MI range, in my opinion, your only choice is to use Lithium batteries. 

I read about an "electric cars paradox" (or something like that)

It goes like this:

Hi speed
Long range
Cheap

You can only have two of them. ( hi speed and long range, but not cheap; hi speed and cheap, but short range; long range and cheap, but low speed)


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## outlaw4shrt (Nov 27, 2014)

evmetro said:


> There are a lot of things that don't add up right. I don't know the math for your specific AGMs, but 7500 lbs and AGMs do not equal 60 miles. 7500 lbs and 56 KWh of lithium equals 60 miles, but the solar panels will take several days to recharge enough to go another 60 miles. I am not certain that the 1239 controller will haul this locomotive at 60 mph for an hour either. If it will, I suspect that you will need some serious cooling. That motor is sealed and gets pretty warm on my subcompact economy car, so I have a strong feeling that you are going to have some serious heat there. The controller will probably cut back. My formal education stopped after 3 years of high school, so I am no engineer, but I think this whole project is just too far out there. I like to dream big like this too, but after a few years on this forum and lotsa reading, I have had to reign it in a little bit so that my builds get along with Mother Nature a little better. I love to see people dream big, but I would do some more reading before spending any money. There is a fantastic resource right here on the forum that taught me a ton of excellent stuff, and it is the alternators and free energy thread. Some folks feel offended to be referred to it, but even if you already know the basics, it is extremely educational.


 
thanks for all the feedback. I'm going to keep working on it and see what I come up with. It doesn't hurt anything, I don't believe trying to work out a way to make my truck "greener" is bad thing, and it's more enjoyable to think and learn about this than the other stuff I deal with on a daily basis here in Kabul.

FYI, the 21 EnerDel 2S12P's that i have listed for 28514W are lithium.

I am not offended at all about reading the alternators and free energy thread, I will definitely take a look at it. 

I need you to explain the 7500 lbs at 60 mph equals 56kw's worth of lithium batteries. I did the math based on my truck, gearing, weight, etc. from the equations/math laid out in the build your own EV book, and that is not what I came up with (it was for the seimens motor and not the AC76 though because I haven't been able to find that motors continuous figures, but I'm guessing that the two are close). At 220A, 144V, and 2400 rpm, my truck could maintain 60 mph. Total power requirement would be 31,680 watts. 28514W battery pack, that would mean a run time of about 54 minutes to full discharge or 54 miles, so not quite 60, but close. yes, that's to full discharge, but I wasn't planning on driving the truck on EV alone like that anyway, I was just stating what I had calculated to be the maximum capabilities. Please let me know what you're accounting for that I am not that is leading you to the 54kw figure, unless it's just an approximation.

I mean, I get it that I am definitely dreaming big here, but the math right now is not telling me that it's impossible, just expensive. Having said that, new 2500HD diesels are going to run you $50k or more, before you even start putting fuel in them, so in my mind, this is definitely the cheaper way to go, by A LOT. I guess I could do that math as well and put it up here so people will stop hitting me about the size/cost argument.


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## TEV (Nov 25, 2011)

I have a 32KW Lithium pack in a Ford Ranger with the ICE and all its components removed. At highway speeds the range is 50-60mi.

We got access to the Lithium batteries. What we are missing now, in order to diy better and easy to convert electric cars, are some hub(wheel) motors powerful enough for cars/trucks.


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## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

> Outlaw
> 
> I need you to explain the 7500 lbs at 60 mph equals 56kw's worth of lithium batteries. I did the math based on my truck, gearing, weight, etc. from the equations/math laid out in the build your own EV book, and that is not what I came up with (it was for the seimens motor and not the AC76 though because I haven't been able to find that motors continuous figures, but I'm guessing that the two are close). At 220A, 144V, and 2400 rpm, my truck could maintain 60 mph. Total power requirement would be 31,680 watts. 28514W battery pack, that would mean a run time of about 54 minutes to full discharge or 54 miles, so not quite 60, but close. yes, that's to full discharge, but I wasn't planning on driving the truck on EV alone like that anyway, I was just stating what I had calculated to be the maximum capabilities. Please let me know what you're accounting for that I am not that is leading you to the 54kw figure, unless it's just an approximation.


It is a bit of an approximation, since there are too many variables. We don't know the exact weight of the completed project, we don't know how poorly the solar panels will play in the drag calculation @60 mph, and of course there are the standard variables like how you drive and what the terrain is like, or what kind of weather conditions you will be in. The formula that seems to make excellent approximations is to simply take the weight of the vehicle and take a zero off. 7500 lbs become 750, and the 750 represents how many watt hours per mile your vehicle will use. Next, I multiplied that 750 watt hours per mile by your 60 miles to determine what you will need and came up with 45,000 watt hours, or 45 Kwh. With lithium, we can't use the last 20% of our pack capacity, so the 45 Kwh needs to be 80% of the total capacity. 45,000 divided by .80 is 56,250 Kwh. You will use 45 KWH of that 56 Kwh to drive 60 miles, and there will be 11Kwh of unusable energy left in your pack.

When I first came to this forum, I was a lot further out of touch with unity than you are right now. I had just built a perpetual motion machine with an alternator that charged a battery that powered an electric motor that turned the alternator, which of course did not do what my heart told me it should do. Although your calculations don't look accurate, you are still talking about things that are possible, just not practical, economical, or purposeful. I stumbled across this forum and read for months, and was able to check lots of boxes off that I needed to know, and came to what I now call a "sense of unity". It is not as quantitative as what the engineers have, but it is based off of a lot of reading and real world experience. The alternators and free energy thread was a huge part of my education, and not just because of the info in that thread. I ended up going back and forth from that thread to the internet wiki to make sure I fully understood everything on the thread. Sometimes I got bounced around by some of the engineers here, which proved to help me even more. I still have much to learn, but so far the info I have read on this forum (I have read almost everything) has been a game changer for me. It was like upgrading from a 1985 era computer to a high end 2014 computer.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

_At 220A, 144V, and 2400 rpm, my truck could maintain 60 mph._

My little two seater roadster requires almost that to cruise at 60mph and it weighs 740kg

Your truck is FIVE TIMES that weight and will have much more frontal area (but it probably has a better drag coefficient)


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