# [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great Efficiency...Less Range!



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe the reporter is seriously mistaken when saying:
"the i-MiEV has a much shorter range than the Leaf (75 fewer miles per
charge)."
Since they get around 60 miles/charge on the i-Miev, that statement
would put the Leaf at a whopping 135 miles per charge. No doubt that
there are ways to drive the Leaf so slow that you can reach 135 miles on
a charge but the claim here is based on a consistent drive test from
Consumer Reports. I expect that they find the Leaf does just under 100
miles/charge or at least that is the EPA number IIRC.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of brucedp5
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 2:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV;Great Efficiency...Less
Range!


Leaf is "much better" and worth its higher price

[unformatted]
http://www.torquenews.com/1081/consumer-reports-mitsubishi-i-miev-crude-
and-causes-range-anxiety
[image] Consumer Reports: Mitsubishi i-MiEV is "crude" and causes "range
anxiety"
By Anthony Faccenda 06/12/2012 Source: Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports has taken issue with the i-MiEV's electric range, which
it calls "disappointing"

Consumer Reports has just issued an update on the all-electric
Mitsubishi i-MiEV, which they purchased back in February.

Unfortunately for Mitsubishi, the hatchback electric car did not hold up
particularly well in the all-important "electric range" category.
Consumer Reports' test-drivers has been accumulating miles on the i-MiEV
over the past few months and has concluded that the vehicle doesn't go
as far as they would like on a full charge. The site uses the phrase
"range anxiety" to illustrate the uncertainty surrounding the i-MiEV's
electric range, or lack there of.

According to Consumer Reports, the i-MiEV produced disappointing
electric range totals in February through mid March, despite an
unseasonably warm winter. The i-MiEV averaged just 56 miles per charge
during Connecticut's mild winter, which consisted of mainly 40 to 50
degree weather. The i-MiEV's miles per charge rose in the springtime
averaging a consistent 61 miles.
Consumer Reports indicates that on one occasion the vehicle attained an
impressive 77 miles. That said, Mitsubishi claims a range of 80 miles
per charge, a distant figure from Consumer Report's overall average of
59 miles.

The less-than-stellar driving range proved to be quite the deterrent for
Consumer Reports' test-drivers. In fact, testers became apprehensive
about driving longer distances in the fear that the vehicle would lose
its charge.
"No one can come to your aid with a gallon of electricity to tide you
over... If your EV runs out of get-go, it means calling a tow truck,"
said Consumer Reports.

On the bright side, Consumer Reports does state that the i-MiEV charges
in a reasonable amount of time. The vehicle's drive battery draws on 16
kWh for a full recharge. This process usually takes approximately six
hours using a 240-volt charger, which is above average.

In addition to efficient charging times, the i-MiEV posses an awfully
low operating cost of 3 cents per mile, based on the national average of
11 cents per kWh. While its operating cost is lower than the Nissan Leaf
(3.5 cents per mile), the i-MiEV has a much shorter range than the Leaf
(75 fewer miles per charge). Consumer Reports contends that the Leaf is
a "much better car" and is worth the higher sticker price. The Leaf is
priced at $38,100 compared to the i-MiEV's $33,630 (not including
federal tax incentives).

Range anxiety aside, Consumer Reports does not seem to have a whole lot
of positive things to say about the i-MiEV. The consumer review site
claims that the EV is "crude and uncomfortable" as a car. Furthermore,
Consumer Reports contends that the i-MiEV is not a suitable substitute
for a commuter vehicle.
[(c) 2012 torquenews.com ]





http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/Na
mlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page&node=413529&query=evln&sort=date
All EVLN posts, today's stealth-posted topics:

EVLN: Jakarta EV project, production in 2013
EVLN: Malaysia wants EVs to create jobs & reduce pollution @home
EVLN: Click n Clack got the Volt wrong
+
EVLN: AMP Electric Mercedes ML350 SUV r:125mi 0-60mph:10s

{brucedp.150m.com}

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I also found this report rather biased. After reading it, I felt like I was
going to come upon a little asterisk at the bottom of the report stating:
"This report funded by generous donations from Exxon Mobil". Truthfully,
it's just a testament to how mentally accustomed we are to gasoline powered
vehicles with very long ranges with quick and convenient range extension
(ignoring all the external costs associated with operating gasoline
vehicles).

The EPA rated range on the i is 62, the Leaf, just 11 more miles, at 73. I
would guess that in some situations, like pure city driving in hilly areas,
the i could match the range on the Leaf with equivalent hypermiling
techniques because of the B drive mode in the i (that the Leaf doesn't have)
for much better regen. 

They made a bunch of "range anxiety" negative comments and only one positive
comment about the efficiency of the vehicle and no comments about the great
headroom (better than the Leaf), and much lower price (7-8k lower) that is a
pretty good incentive when there's already a hefty price premium for an EV. 
And what about the other positives of silent and smooth operation? Or that
there is no need to go to a gasoline station and pay into the big piggy bank
of extractive and polluting enterprises? A car ISN'T just a car - it's a
mobile part of our society and as such has local and global environmental,
political, and commercial implications. 

Could you guess I just bought one?

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> brucedp5 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On the bright side, Consumer Reports does state that the i-MiEV charges i=
> n a
> > reasonable amount of time. The vehicle=92s drive battery draws on 16 kWh =
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David Rees wrote
> I really hate the metric of using empty-to-full charge times as
> "charging speed".
> 
> Both the i-MiEV, LEAF and Volt charge at the same speed on L2 -
> 240V/16A. The only reason one might take longer than the other to
> charge is because one has more battery capacity than another.
> 
> Drive each of the cars in a similar manner and distance and then
> recharge to full and you'll find that each takes a very similar amount
> of time to charge.
> 

I agree with you about the charging rate. But, one of the reasons we got
the i was that it will deplete charge less slowly than the Leaf. So, it's
recharge to full *is* actually faster. For example, if both a Leaf and an i
drive 40 miles and stop to charge, the Leaf will need to replace
40x328wh/mile = 13.1kw and the i 40x258 wh/mile = 10.3kw (using advertised
EPA and pack size numbers). The i will be back and running after 3.1 hours
(at 3300w/hour) and the Leaf almost an hour later (4.0 hours). Not a lot,
but it is "quicker to recharge", even if it's not precisely the right
terminology.



-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 13 Jun 2012 at 11:31, Danpatgal wrote:
> 
> > I would guess that in some situations, like pure city driving in hilly
> > areas, the i could match the range on the Leaf with equivalent
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

We've had to deal with what people were saying they read in Consumer
Reports for years. Ultimately it is just their view or opinion. An
opinion that carries a significant amount of influence on the public's
purchases. 

A weak or bad opinion can seriously hurt sales. Similar to what
Danpatgal posted, their report does smell heavy-handed/oily/bought. It
is important that consumers not be lulled into thinking the media can
not be bought. Most if not all media outlets work hard to be in a
position so that what they spew will bring a profitable price to
whomever wants to buy it (or has them create it).

If we do some data mining of the evdl nabble archive, searching for
consumer reports :

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4634141
May 15, 2012 EVLN: Consumer Reports Favors 'Purpose-Built' EVs

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4491770
Mar 21, 2012 EVLN: 2013 Leaf EV: 6.6kW Charger, Better Heater, Leather
Option
... Consumer Reports' senior director of its auto testing center David
Champion has said the range of the Leaf dropped dramatically in cold
weather when the heater was turned on ...

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td4468901
Mar 13, 2012 EVLN: $100k Fisker Karma pih 'Bricked' During Consumer
Reports Test

http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble-td3331582
Mar 02, 2011 GM's plug-in series hybrid Doesn't Make Much Sense

Bottom line = Consumer Reports is ice oriented, and EV range is a biggie
with them.

Consumer Reports tests all vehicles as if they were ice. If the vehicle
does not compare, their report will have negative points (Consumer
Reports does have a bias). Consumer Reports also uses that
'gold-standard' I previously posted about: the 100 mile range. If an EV
does not have a 100 mile range, or an other range issue,
red-flags/warning-alarms go off at Consumer Reports: their stated
opinion will be lower.


Some people may want to ask why do we have a 100 mile range comparison,
when 100+ miles is too much for some and not enough for others. There
were several influences, but the first round of successful Production
EVs had a ~100 mile range (GM EV1 gen2 NiMH). Today, automakers defined
a 100 mile target as a way to limit the cost the pack, thus keeping the
EV purchase price down. Automakers also tout a 100 mile range, but as it
has been posted, what does the EV really get with a set of specific
driving conditions. 

Supposedly, there are different driving measurement standards in place,
and some vary depending on the country it is going to sold in. 
IMO I would prefer that posted idea of a specific set of conditions that
all EVs were tested on.

Perhaps something like five different regional test routes each located
on regular highways (North, South, East, West, cold, mild, and hot
climate driving). i.e.: a 100 mile stretch of highway at a constant 65
mph 

http://goo.gl/maps/kF0g
-on I-5 (Seattle, WA) from Olympia to Marysville

http://goo.gl/maps/UPYj
-on US-101 (SF, CA) from Santa Rosa to San Jose

http://goo.gl/maps/AHDP
-on I-5 (LA, CA) from Rossmoor to San Diego

http://goo.gl/maps/iNXx
-on I-10 (Phoenix, AZ) from Chandler to Tucson

http://goo.gl/maps/l2k4
-on I-95 (Wash DC) from Baltimore, MD to Fredericksburg, VA

I chose those locations off the top of my head but others may have other
routes they can suggest. 
But you get my idea, a regular point A to point B commute people can
relate to: 
-Can the EV actually go 100 miles on a route I regularly commute on?


{brucedp.150m.com}




-


> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> ...
> > I haven't read the CR article, but my guess would be that they didn't use
> > that mode nor did they especially try to drive frugally. That's not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> You wrote:
> "I believe the reporter is seriously mistaken when saying:
> "the i-MiEV has a much shorter range than the Leaf (75 fewer miles per
> charge).""
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> You wrote:
> "I would guess that in some situations, like pure city driving in hilly
> areas, the i could match the range on the Leaf with equivalent hypermiling
> techniques because of the B drive mode in the i (that the Leaf doesn't have)
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Ken Fry wrote
> 
> I'd expect the i-miev and leaf regen modes to be almost equally efficient. 

I base my comment about the i regen being better based on my test driving
the Leaf and not being particularly impressed with the regen power in Eco
mode, and there is no B mode. On the i, however, the need for braking is
minimal when using the B mode. Now, I guess the Leaf has the potential to
increase the regen when the brake pedal is pressed, that might give the Leaf
the ability to regen as much power as the i. But, requires more work and
sensitivity on the brake pedal that I think is harder to do than simply
modulating the accelerator.

But, then I'd still say because of the lower weight and lower power
consumption and at least as good regen, the i may close the range gap on the
Leaf in hilly urban settings. Now, it could be (say at very fast highway
speeds), the Leaf extends the range gap on the i. 

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-Reports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655666.html
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For example, I
can get (estimated) 95 mile range when driving on the freeway at about
60mph. In the same weather conditions driving on city streets, hills, stop
& go, that range (estimated) drops to 60-65 miles (50 in winter). I think
the difference would be to regen losses and limits.

I don't know how to measure regen on the leaf. I will have the annual
inspection at the dealer in a week or so and will see what info I can get
from them.

Does anyone else have metrics for regen on the leaf? How efficient? How
does it determine when to switch over or add physical braking?

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Danpatgal
Sent: 14 June, 2012 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great
Efficiency...Less Range!


Ken Fry wrote
> 
> I'd expect the i-miev and leaf regen modes to be almost equally efficient.


I base my comment about the i regen being better based on my test driving
the Leaf and not being particularly impressed with the regen power in Eco
mode, and there is no B mode. On the i, however, the need for braking is
minimal when using the B mode. Now, I guess the Leaf has the potential to
increase the regen when the brake pedal is pressed, that might give the Leaf
the ability to regen as much power as the i. But, requires more work and
sensitivity on the brake pedal that I think is harder to do than simply
modulating the accelerator.

But, then I'd still say because of the lower weight and lower power
consumption and at least as good regen, the i may close the range gap on the
Leaf in hilly urban settings. Now, it could be (say at very fast highway
speeds), the Leaf extends the range gap on the i. 

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-R
eports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655666.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I haven't driven a Leaf yet, but when I drove the iMiev, I found the regen
to be very nice... in the B mode, you could almost dispense with using the
brake pedal at all when driving around the city, as long as you left a
little room between you and the next car. To the point that I wondered
whether it should have brake lights tied to the regen instead of the brake
pedal to avoid getting rear ended.

I'm used to driving manual transmission vehicles with good engine braking,
so the idea of modulating the accelerator to do braking as well is pretty
easy for me. If you are used to an automatic, which coasts more if you let
off on the accelerator, I can see how the iMiev system would be a little
counterintuitive.

Z



> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
> > However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For example,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I don't remember exactly how much regen current the Leaf
gives on release of the accelerator, but it felt much the
same as the "engine braking simulation" in my 1st gen Prius.
Upon lightly applying the brake pedal, regen current soared
to a max 80ADC into the pack which was only slightly more
than the 50-60A max that the Prius can send into or draw
from its tiny 6.5Ah 273V NiMH pack. 
I have driven vehicles that can accelerate as well as
decelerate with the same power - actually the current limit
was the same controller limit but the deceleration power 
was higher due to the higher charge voltage on the pack
as well as the inefficiencies being part of the deceleration
while acceleration was after the inefficiencies.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV;Great
Efficiency...Less Range!

I haven't driven a Leaf yet, but when I drove the iMiev, I found the
regen to be very nice... in the B mode, you could almost dispense with
using the brake pedal at all when driving around the city, as long as
you left a little room between you and the next car. To the point that
I wondered whether it should have brake lights tied to the regen instead
of the brake pedal to avoid getting rear ended.

I'm used to driving manual transmission vehicles with good engine
braking, so the idea of modulating the accelerator to do braking as well
is pretty easy for me. If you are used to an automatic, which coasts
more if you let off on the accelerator, I can see how the iMiev system
would be a little counterintuitive.

Z



> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
> > However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Zeke Yewdall wrote
> 
> To the point that I wondered whether it should have brake lights tied to
> the regen instead of the brake
> pedal to avoid getting rear ended.

I am now quite fond of the B mode in our i and feel the same way, I think a
guy following me the other day did at least curse as he was coming a little
too close to me as I engaged regen. Regen really should activate the brake
lights above some threshold. 

Anybody heard of an EV being rear-ended as it was slowing during regen
(without brake lights)? Do any new OEM EVs have brake lights tied to regen,
Tesla maybe ??

-----
Dan Gallagher
http://www.evalbum.com/3854

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Consumer-Reports-on-i-MiEV-Great-Efficiency-Less-Range-tp4655638p4655686.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I remember reading on the Tesla blog a few years ago that the brake
lights are tied to regen and come on when the car actually slows, not
just when it is using regen. I haven't confirmed it, however. I would
have assumed that all OEMs would have tied the brake light to regen.

On my Gizmo I tied the brake lights to regen at any level since I can
slow to about 2mph with regen.



> Danpatgal <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Zeke Yewdall wrote
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On the leaf, using the brake to invoke regen is easy and transparent.
> > However, my experience is that the regen is weak regardless. For examp=
> le, I
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I believe Tesla (model S anyway) engages regen when you let of the go pedal, so to some extent slowing done and regen are the same process.

Don't know if you can get it to glide like a Prius.

John



> David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > I remember reading on the Tesla blog a few years ago that the brake
> > lights are tied to regen and come on when the car actually slows, not
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

The Prius will default also simulate regen braking,
however you can move the gear selector to [N] which
will tell the controller not to send any torque
via either of the two motors, essentially giving you
full glide and depending on whether the engine was
already started or not, you can overrev one of the motors
by switching to Neutral at the top of a hill while in
full EV mode and picking up enough speed on the way down
with the controller prevented from starting the engine
(which requires an action from the motors).

Prius has a mild regen on accelerator release, it increases
the regen when selecting the * to give higher engine
braking such as which you can use while descending a long
steep slope where you do not want to ride your brakes.
Also applying the brakes will first increase regen before
friction brakes are applied.
Regen will be disabled once the battery reaches a certain
max charging state.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of JOHN OCONNOR
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 11:06 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Consumer Reports on i-MiEV; Great
Efficiency...Less Range!

I believe Tesla (model S anyway) engages regen when you let of the go
pedal, so to some extent slowing done and regen are the same process.

Don't know if you can get it to glide like a Prius.

John




David Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:

> I remember reading on the Tesla blog a few years ago that the brake 
> lights are tied to regen and come on when the car actually slows, not 
> just when it is using regen. I haven't confirmed it, however. I would 
> have assumed that all OEMs would have tied the brake light to regen.
> 
> On my Gizmo I tied the brake lights to regen at any level since I can 
> slow to about 2mph with regen.

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Click to expand...

*


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As a very happy owner of an iMiEV (complementing my two Sparrows, an
EV-converted small pickup, a 1965 Saab EV conversion, and an electric
EcoScoot which is presently my LiFePO4 testbed), I just posted a rebuttal of
the Consumer Reports writeup on their website.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/06/with-the-mitsubishi-i-miev-electric-car-range-anxiety-is-included.html

I measured both the power and regeneration battery currents of the iMiEV and
posted the numbers here:

http://myimiev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=288

What I measured was slightly over 150A at max power and slightly over 100A
at max regen from the 330v (nominal) battery pack. Having three levels of
regen is a very nice iMiEV feature, and to me a significant advantage over
the Leaf. On long downgrades, I have actually had the 'fuel' level gauge go
up in addition to having the Range Remaining display increase significantly.

What is unclear to me is how Regeneration is treated when the EPA conducts
its mileage tests, as IMO that can make a VERY significant difference!

Although I consider the Leaf an excellent EV and have talked two friends
into buying Leafs, for my wife and myself it is a little too large and
unnecessarily opulent.

The iMiEV is now our primary vehicle which is absolutely adored by my wife
(I still drive the Sparrow), with our Gen1 Honda Insights continuing to be
relegated for use on long trips.

-----
Joe Siudzinski
--
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