# From scratch?



## alvin (Jul 26, 2008)

Go for it. Sounds like you want to. There ain't nothin' to it but doin' it.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

When you build a car from scratch you have to solve every little problem. Seat mounts. Steering column location and geometry relative to the rack. How to mount the windshield. Getting it watertight enough that someone else besides yourself might actually want to ride in it. Mounting body panels... everything requires custom fabrication. It is at least double the work compared to starting with an existing vehicle. The other thing that you have to consider is that if you expect this thing to be street-licensed and insured, your design will have to pass muster with the DMV and your insurance company. This is a lot simpler if it's not "just a car that I built".

I've built several road race cars, culminating with a full tube frame chassis where I ended up doing everything. Chassis design, fabrication and welding, bodywork design, moldmaking, all the little details. It basically burned me out and I sold the car without completing it. Last summer I finally finished a 6-year mechanical rebuild of my Tiger that started out from having to replace the engine. I ended up redesigning and rebuilding the front suspension, the brakes, the electrical system and swapping the 4-speed stock transmission for a T5. In addition to replacing the engine and replumbing the entire fuel system for fuel injection. Some of the parts ended up being off-the-shelf, but there ended up being probably about 50 parts that required mill or lathe work, and a LOT of welding on the front suspension. I could have bought others' parts and saved a lot of time, but it was my choice to do it my way... it all depends on where you want to spend your time.

Having said all that, there are a lot of good aftermarket parts such as suspension items and brakes, that can save a lot of weight in your car. And weight is the enemy of performance. So I would recommend in favor of a judicious selection of performance parts, but stay away from doing a whole car.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

TigerNut,

That's food for thought.

But I wasn't really thinking of starting from absolute scratch. I was thinking of finding a fairly low-cost performance part from a commonly available car, then using that. For example:

Make a sketch of the car. Find places to put batteries and the motor. I'm thinking batteries in a pan of some sort on the bottom of the car, in a way that it's not a total pain to get them out. Say, the batteries come to just under the seats, so my feet rest on the same floor the batteries rest on but my seat rests on top of the batteries. I like the truck feel better than the car feel, as far as sitting.

Anyway, once I get basic placement going, I take a look at what parts are available that fit that geometry. Then I find out what frame mountings I would need, and duplicate those. Say for example I used a Mustang rear end and suspension. Find out exactly what angles everything is on the real Mustang, and duplicate all the mount points for that stuff exactly so everything lines up properly and the wheels point in the proper direction.

Am I being too simple minded here?

I am thinking about getting a mill and a lathe, so as far as machining parts I might take awhile at it but I think I could get it done.

What about the idea of taking an existing body, then build my custom frame and suspension under that? I hear a lot about having to reinforce everything on this forum, and about the final car being at max GVWR before the driver gets in. I'd like a car that weighs what it should weigh, and holds what a normal car of that size would hold for payload. And keeping the weight low so it doesn't have too many performance problems.

Maybe there's a simpler way of doing that.


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## evrob (Dec 3, 2009)

what about a locost7 or a three wheeler of your own design,i know it starting from scratch but that is the approach i will be taking


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

The highest "custom-but-off-the-shelf" ratio seems to be acheived with VW derivatives: buggies, sand rails, etc. You can buy the tubs, chassis, etc. and VW front clips and transaxles bolt right in. Bazillions of aftermarket parts for hop up and modification, but no real fabrication to worry about. (unless you really want to, a TON of work for anything big)

Another disadvantage of full custom: when it breaks, you can't go to the store to find a part; you may have to make another one. Keep those body molds around.


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## Thaniel (May 25, 2008)

May want to ask your friends why when building their hot rods they start with a factory chassis and not from scratch. I expect it is the same reason.

For me I wouldn't build from scratch. There are enough issues to tackle in an EV without having to add in steering, suspension, braking issues. Upgrading a factory suspension is just simply pushing BUY on a performance parts website and then install.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Just finishing a "simple" reverse trike after about 15 months, after work and on Sundays. All chassis, bodywork, suspension, uprights, steering, seat etc. were self built. It has been a massive undertaking, much more than I had expected having built 4 previous trikes. Still I'm very proud of it so that's the up side! I wouldn't discourage anyone but you must not under estimale it either.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

As one of the folks who will be building from scratch I'll respond with a few questions.

As your research shows many chassis kits are available. Do you have the persistence to get a chassis put together? Will your friends think it is a cool project and actually help?

If I remember correctly most frames are around 6 inches deep. Thunder sky type cells are 9" to 12" tall. Will the cells actually fit under the body?

Do you have a particular body in mind?

My basic thought is this: You will end up doing a full restoration/customization and a conversion. For you, is it worth the time and energy investment?

For me a Geo metro or Honda coupe conversion would not hold my interest.....

MJ


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Wow!

Thanks for posting everyone, whether you think it's a good idea or not.

A trike has crossed my mind, and a reverse trike based on bicycle parts might actually be my first EV.

FWIW, the steering, suspension and brakes are exactly what I would use from some other car. I'm not that much of an engineer, don't want to be. I figure if I can duplicate the weight distribution and get suspension for a car whose stock weight is what my target stock weight would be, I'll probably be OK if I can duplicate all that using performance or even stock parts. I'm mostly thinking of making a frame which has not much to do with anything ICE, and then sticking wheels on that. Not really interested in making a body on my own, but I would consider it since I have some experience with molds and fiberglass.

VW parts are certainly on my radar. I would prefer a transverse engine, but that's the size of car I'm thinking of, only with probably heavier suspension -- meaning starting with a suspension designed for a heavier car, not starting with VW and beefing it up.

I've talked with my buddies about this project for the past few months. I've helped them on their cars, so I suspect when I really need it they'll help me. Yes, they're somewhat interested as long as the car has some balls. Which is what I'm interested in too.

My buddies are rebuilding an old car because they want it to be a rebuilt old car. Part of the art form is to take some recognizable piece of history and turn it into a street rod. One in particular is using the body and nothing else. The entire chassis is cooked up from scratch, which is what I'm talking about. Absolutely nothing stock except the body. Still looks like a 53 Chevy truck, sort of, but it's shorter (height) and shorter (length) and it's got a big block and all the trimmings.

A sand rail would be incredibly cool, but the problem there is if it's street legal it's not fun and vice versa. I've wanted one of those since I first saw one, but never bought one for one reason or another. That's the size and capacity of car I'd like.

I don't expect it to be less work than a conversion. What sort of result can I expect though?

Frame height: I'll do what I have to do. All I'm saying is I'm interested in making a chassis that's built around electrics rather than an ICE, using hop-up suspension and similar for existing performance cars. Either slap a body on it or leave it off, don't really care much. If anyone has done it, I'm very interested in hearing what you think. The TigerNut and Duxuk are exactly the sort of guys I was hoping to hear from. Not saying I'm not interested in what you other guys have to say, but direct experience means far more to me than some web site about a monster garage wannabe.

Thanks.


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

It sounds like you're leaning towards a body-on-frame design. Nothing really wrong with that. It's easier to work on since you can solve chassis problems without all the bodywork in place, and it opens the door to building your own chassis or starting with a performance chassis and adapting some other bodywork onto it . However, in terms of best handling and least weight, a unit-body chassis will do better, since it has a more rigid 3-D structure and the body elements help carry the suspension loads. It can be more tricky to figure out where to alter the structure to put in battery trays and how to adapt drivetrain and suspension components though.

Either way, spend as much as you can afford to get the cleanest, straightest, most rust-free example of the car you want. You don't want to mess with structural issues, having to straighten chassis mounting points or to do major bondo work just to get going. In terms of weight, get the earliest model year of the car that you want... cars almost never get lighter as they evolve from one model year to the next. Also, if there is an option to get models with different engine size or type, it's probably best to get the least powerful one. You will likely get a lighter overall drivetrain package, and if you need to you can source the brakes and springs alone from the higher-end model. For any car that had a small and a large engine option, the small-engine model will more likely be cheap and less abused.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Unibody would be neat, but it's way beyond me. I'd have to design the entire vehicle all at once, and bend complex shapes from sheet metal. Even when I've built things per a plan, I never exactly follow it and can never anticipate the final product.

More important, I'm aesthetically challenged so any sort of body I would make would almost certainly look like hell on a cracker with too much mustard.

I suppose you're right about one thing though, if I plan on putting a real car body on it I will need to make the frame small enough to fit inside whatever body I choose. So I would need to choose one first.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi,
I am building a "Locost" Lotus Seven type of vehicle 
part of the reason is experience with heavily modified cars and getting them to work

In My Experience
Brakes, Suspension, Transmission, Motors
Are the easy bits!

Doors, Windows, Interior, Trim
Are the difficult bits!

The Lotus Seven solution is to minimize the difficult bits - no doors, aeroscreens
if it is not fitted it becomes easy!

I did see a different way of doing this back in the UK 
Beauford Cars Ltd.

They made a ladder chassis and put a mini (minus front and rear sub-frames) on top then fitted a long bonnet

Sounds awful but it looked quite good and all of the "difficult bits" were standard mini


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## TigerNut (Dec 18, 2009)

1Clue, My suggestion for unibody was in the context of modifying an existing vehicle. I agree that the shapes you need for a unibody chassis are beyond the one-of carbuilder unless you were to use composites, and even then you would have to do some serious design work up front.

Duncan's comments on what is hard and what is easy are dead on, in my experience. This is why I suggested finding the cleanest example possible of your target vehicle. It will have all the hard bits, in a condition where you don't need to do major work on them.


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

TigerNut & Duncan,

I HEAR you both. My bohemian attitude tells me I don't want a windshield or doors, or a body. The Arial Atom is an awesome car, and EVERY motorized toy I've ever owned was a "breezy" in the sense that there have never been windshields or any of that. I've never had a motorcycle with a fairing, no boats or hovercraft or anything else had anything like that either.

On the other hand, this is a car. The reason I want a car is for when my motorcycle would be just a tad too uncomfortable. Like when there's ice and sleet.

I have done composite fabrication using fiberglass and molds, and using fiberglass on foam and plywood. I still don't want to tackle a unibody car from scratch.

That said, my real issue here is that ICE cars are not convenient to make into EV's. I like neat packages, and the evidence presented in the gallery and in most of the local EV's I see are not that neat.

By "neat" I don't mean spotless. I mean technically sound and simply functional. Things that should be replaceable should be easy to get at and easy to replace. The passenger compartment should have passengers in it, not batteries. The trunk should have storage for junk you want to haul.

I know I'm not being particularly reasonable, maybe I'm just old and crotchety.


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## MJ Monterey (Aug 20, 2009)

The pickups (Chevy s10s, Ford Rangers and such) with tilt beds can be a pretty clean conversion. 

Would the basic layout of batteries under the bed with electronics and motor under the hood work for you? 

I'm thinking custom frame with a vintage cab chanelled over it if you can loose the head room.

MJ


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Actually, it was the S10 conversions that got me thinking like this. They're truly neat, but nobody uses Lithium on them because they're too heavy to be able to afford it. And with lead, by the time you're done you can't carry any more than the driver.

My problem is, if I use a truck I'll likely be going 1000 miles pulling a trailer with a big motorized toy on it. If I'm commuting, it'll be just my fat old ass in there, and I'm a bit of a minimalist.

So I was thinking of what I actually carry in my car every day. Me, a laptop, maybe a bag of groceries. Sometimes a person, but not as often as I would have thought. A year or so ago I started paying attention to the number of times I actually carry people, and what I usually have that I actually need.

I also started paying attention to how far I actually drive on an average day, and how often I go further than that.

So my vehicle turned into an econ-o-box, or more happily a street equivalent of a sand rail. Which Duncan thoughtfully identified as a Lotus 7 or similar.

Also, the smaller the car the more likely I can use newer battery chemistry and ACIM, which I'm really hot on.

My outlook is that I would have something like an S-10 with an ICE in it. Then I would have a small EV car or inverse trike. The car should be good for most days in the Chicago area, but snow days I could use the truck.

My literal point-to-point drive is 19 miles each way, and no opportunity to plug in at the other end. So I need 40 mile range at least, and some days I drive around an extra 5 miles or so. Say 60 miles ideal to get the maximum charging cycles out of the batteries.

Thanks.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi 1clue,
I would not build a truck
Steering boxes ------YUCK

When I was in the USA I used the UK equivalent of a pick-up
Hatchback with a trailer!

my logic for the Lotus Seven AKA four wheeled motorbike is that I can dress for the weather but on ice two wheels are tooooo risky

Why not make yourself an Ariel Atom??

I did some work on a solar racer for the local high school and I really liked the mould-less
foam construction method

Alan Staniforth in one of his books builds a "folded honeycomb single seater" 

I was tempted to go that way but I have chickened out in favor of a simple multi tube frame


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

There is an Ariel Atom clone coming out soon and will be affordable for the DIY.Go to www.locostusa.com forum and type in Ariel Atom clone and take a look.You should be able to build this at about 800-1,000lbs.A very good ev candidate is a www.vintagespyders.com kitcar.The car fully loaded with ThundeSky life batteries only weighs 1200lbs.The chassis suspension can be upgraded to fully independent suspension using Palatov components.Palatov even makes front-wheel-drive hubs which give you better CG and regen braking.He uses VW Golf hubs,bearings and axles with his billet aluminum uprights and moly tubular wishbones..You can actually talk VintageSpyders into selling you just the chassis then install all of your components then bring it back to their shop for bonding the fiberglass body onto the chassis.The great thing about the Porsche 550 Spyder is the accessability of the motor and chassis.


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm one of the from-scratch guys. It is pretty intense. I have modified quite a few production vehicles over the past few decades, including completely cutting them into pieces and reassembling them to suit the intended purpose. None of that comes close to what's involved in a one-off scratch-built vehicle. This is my first one, and quite possibly the last one I'll ever do hands-on. I would do it again if my budget allows me to concentrate on the design aspects, while other shops do the work. I actually enjoy the challenge of connecting all the dots, but there are things that have been designed and engineered on production vehicles, that we take for granted. Even some of the aftermarket companies capitalize on the original manufacturer's countless hours of design and engineering time, with a few modifications and updates to make the new part work a little better.

I decided to use factory (Fiero) front and (GM G-body) rear suspensions, because the time needed to design something as good from scratch was beyond what I wanted to invest. Plus, there are a lot of upgrade products available for them. This decision came after watching four engineers, one of whom worked for the top aftermarket chassis company at the time, work for months and months to design a clean-sheet front suspension for a Pro-Touring muscle car. It was impressive to watch and see realized, but not a big enough retrun on investment for me.

Even with the use of factory suspesion components, there was still a LOT of work for me to do to make all these parts come together with the function and appearance of a quality vehicle. That's what I meant about the design and engineering we take for granted. You find things like the angle the input shaft comes off of the steering rack is perfect for the car it was designed for, but just a few degrees off from where it needs to be to stop you from adding another u-joint in the linkage. Then, you find that the support you would like to use for that extra u-joint is exactly where you wanted to locate the upper control arm mount. These are hypothetical hurdles - I actually put an insane amount of time into my component choices and layout that makes most of my project go together like a factory vehicle.

It's what you intend to accomplish. I probably have enough design time to physically build two or three vehicles. My goal from the beginning was to use a custom vehicle to showcase my design work, so it was a good investment for me. For someone who mainly needs a vehicle to drive, this could be a huge waste of time. You have to figure out what your actual goal is, and plan a vehicle project that accomplishes that goal with the least amount of resources spent. Many projects have been sold uncompleted because it just wasn't worth it anymore...


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

OK, you guys convinced me.

I think it would be neat, but first I don't have the time for that probably, and second I think getting a first EV going out of SOMETHING would be better than having it lay around in the garage forever.

My buddy with the truck spent a lot of time figuring out how to get his steering linkage to go around a big block. I know you're right on that.

Duncan, I'm not going to build a truck. The truck would be the ICE vehicle. On the other hand, that Spyder would be an awesome EV! So would an Atom, but my practical side seems to think I would need some sort of top on it.


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## Duxuk (Jul 11, 2009)

Just a thought here which might appeal to your minimalist tendacies. I saw a fully built Robin Hood Lightweight at a kit car show in 2007. It is a Lotus 7 type car but is built without a chassis,just a cut, folded and rivetted aluminium monocoque. I designed a 2 seater EV to be made in this way but didn't make it as I lost faith in EVs at that time. If you Google "Robin Hood Lightweight" there is plenty of info. Cutting, folding and rivetting aluminium is quick and easy. For brackets you just rivet on pieces of box section. I am just completing my aluminium over ladder/spaceframe trike. I decided to go this way because of difficulties in fixing on the rear suspension on a trike with a monocoque. If you build a four wheeler I think it could be quick and easy with no need to weld!


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

That sort of car is certainly interesting to me, especially if I could make a high performance one.

At this point, my opinion of electric cars is significantly different than it was when I first started watching this forum. I no longer think it will save money, quite the opposite really. I have doubts about environmental benefits, but hopefully as old power plants are replaced by new ones the pollution of the entire system will go down. EVs are interesting to me for these main reasons:
3. It's a neat technical challenge.
2. It's quiet and clean _on the road._ It _may_ help overall to keep pollution down.
1. It puts my money where I want the money to go.

Number 1 is easily the biggest thing for me. Don't give money to people who hate you.

Getting back to the point, I like simple and minimal, but I'm not afraid of welding. Gotta use my welder for something right?


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## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

I agree 100% with your sentiments on electric cars. From a strictly financial perspective, they don't make sense right now. I crunched the numbers a hundred different ways and was ready to give up on the whole idea, then I considered building a performance toy and found my place in this electric world. As a matter of national security, and sustainable living, however I believe we MUST invest heavily in EVs - as a nation. It just makes the most sense. It's going to be expensive, and there will be sacrifices, but eventually it is where we need to go.

Since your interest is similar to mine, I would really suggest looking into available chassis or chassis kits that suit your need, maybe with some minor modifications. When you say performance, in whatever capacity that may be, my mind goes automatically to safety. I think this need is magnified with an EV, because of the instantaneous application of full torque. You can go to a lot of hot rod companies and purchase everything you need for a safe foundation. They have everything from bare frames, to complete rolling chassis, using proven components. There are also a lot of aftermarket fiberglass bodies available.

My suggestion would be do some research and find a chassis that will work, and a body that will fit on it. Many of them will build to spec, based on one of their product offerings. You can have them locate things where you need them, for your proposed layout. They'll also advise when you're asking for something unsafe or unwise. Then you can invest all of your energy into assembling it all to suit your taste and needs. That is still a serious undertaking, but a much more rewarding one for the owner/builder.

I am speaking from personal experience of being right in the middle of this very thing. I worked on my chassis yesterday, and am finally getting close to being able to work on something that looks like an actual vehicle. I chose to build this one from scratch to be able to put that in my portfolio, so I can confidently offer "scratch-built designs" to future clients. I'll have "living" proof that my designs work as intended. My next personal project will be based on a chassis that arrives on a truck! 

I said all this in reference to the folded aluminum sheet chassis. I love the sound of that, but instantly realized that where and what type of strengthening and reinforcement are absolutely critical to occupant safety. Maybe if it was being built with a weak, small, lightweight, ICE powertrain you could keep both feet on this side of catastrophe. Putting a torquey electric motor in one, in search of performance, is like an experiment to find out where it will fatigue and fold. Aluminum is also tricky in that it has a tendency to fatigue and snap, whereas steel will usually bend and not return to its original form. Both are a problem, but the snap is more dramatic. I have personally witnessed this on dragbikes. The high-stress environment of ultra-high rpm launches was good for finding out what parts weren't up to snuff.

I could also be wrong about your goals. If you love engineering and micro-fabrication - have at it! The experience will be extremely rewarding. By "micro-fabrication" I mean precisely cutting and fitting individual chassis pieces together. The more precise the fit, the stronger the finished product is. I invested 3.5 hours into fitting two crossmembers yesterday. They were both in locations that required compound notching curves to fit properly. They bear some of the torque reaction from the rear end so getting them in in one, tight-fitting piece, was essential. A couple more tasks like this and I finally start fitting body work and components - woo-hoo! 

By the way, purchasing a chassis and body and working on assembly will by no means get you out of using that welder, and every other tool you own! You'll have your hands full making brackets, mounts, etc. Those things are highly rewarding though because when you finish each on it looks and feels a little more like an actual vehicle. Like when you spend six hours getting the seats mounted just right, you can actually sit in them and make cool driving sounds! 

Have to developed a budget yet?


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Toddshotrods,

This is going to be a short one because I don't really have a lot to disagree about on your post. I see your point, and your insight is what I'm after.

Regarding cool driving noises. I spent at least as much time doing that on my hovercraft as I spent building it. I still strongly identify with Calvin from the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon, even at 43.

You made me laugh out loud.

Everyone in the hod rod "business" wants you to think that it's all business and they're grown-ups. We all still play with toys though, including the cool driving noises.


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## Ryeno (Mar 25, 2010)

Have you looked into the FFR GTM or RCR SL-C?


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## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

1clue said:


> OK, you guys convinced me.
> 
> I think it would be neat, but first I don't have the time for that probably, and second I think getting a first EV going out of SOMETHING would be better than having it lay around in the garage forever.
> 
> ...


There are removable soft and hard tops available for the Spyder.
I would attach images but the DIYelectriccar forum server has data under space


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## 1clue (Jul 21, 2008)

Ryeno said:


> Have you looked into the FFR GTM or RCR SL-C?


Oof. Nice, but I have one word for that: Snow. Frankly a lot of the summer months will be on two wheels, the E-car would be mostly for rainy days and winter.

A removable top would be awesome. That FFR SL-R would we super cool with a removable top. And I'm amazed at how cheap the kit is, considering the cost of the Atom.


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