# Home built AC drive for Ford Siemens motor is working!



## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm slowly working out the bugs in my inverter, but I reached a great milestone today. I was able to run the Siemens motor up to full speed, and it was super smooth. In previous runs the motor was shaking really bad, the heat sink was over heating and IGBT was tripping on over current. I think I have the major bugs worked out now, so I uploaded a video!


http://etischer.com/awdev/alive/Alive.wmv


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Congratulations, that's very impressive. Definitely an indication of electronic mastery! From the looks of the pics/vid, it looks like maybe you pieced together the control electronics from some other system, and added your own power section?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Yep, I took the brains and firing circuit from another inverter and added a bigger igbt pack and capacitors. 

I was just about to give up, and then changing one parameter made the whole thing work. Super happy and super relieved that all the time I invested produced some fruit! I still want to get the drive working in a vector mode, maybe I'll even get to it this weekend!


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## electricmini (Oct 21, 2008)

Congratulations!

Those Ford motors have been tantalising EVer's for years, the Siemens systems are very good. It's really good to see someone getting one running, seemed like a terrible waste to have all those motors not being used.

Richard (electricmini)


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

electricmini said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> Those Ford motors have been tantalising EVer's for years, the Siemens systems are very good. It's really good to see someone getting one running, seemed like a terrible waste to have all those motors not being used.
> 
> Richard (electricmini)


Agreed, I have wanted to use the AC but getting a good inverter to power them has been light years away for me. This may just allow me to get one for another EV. I'd love to convert a NB to AC and Lithium. Some day soon I hope. 

Excellent work. I will be watching.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

What did you put it in, and what sort of speed and acceleration do you expect to get out of it? 

Found a link for one for sale, 2000 bucks.


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Yup, there's a bunch of them on eBay for about 2k as well. As far as I can tell it's a really good motor if you can find a way to power it.

What kind of inverter did the guts come out of?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Telco said:


> What did you put it in, and what sort of speed and acceleration do you expect to get out of it?
> 
> Found a link for one for sale, 2000 bucks.


Just so you know, they are sold on ebay for around $800, thats how much I bought mine for.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

This is great! I have been eying that motor for a future EV build, $800 is a good price and custom controller is looking like a good future project for me. I have been waiting eagerly for your results, and can't wait for some EV driving videos!


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2009)

If I could find one of those motors for $800 I'd buy one now and wait till a good controller come out then build my EV. All the ones on Ebay are at $2k each. OUCH. 

Pete : )

If you know where I can get one and one of your controllers when you are finished I will buy them. Guaranteed.


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

gottdi said:


> If I could find one of those motors for $800 I'd buy one now and wait till a good controller come out then build my EV. All the ones on Ebay are at $2k each. OUCH.
> 
> Pete : )
> 
> If you know where I can get one and one of your controllers when you are finished I will buy them. Guaranteed.


They have a "Make an Offer", and I think if you offer $800 they will take it. I'd do it, but I just got my hands on an FB1-4001A so my mulah had been depleted. Oh well, next time.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

TheSGC said:


> They have a "Make an Offer", and I think if you offer $800 they will take it. I'd do it, but I just got my hands on an FB1-4001A so my mulah had been depleted. Oh well, next time.



I might just do that. But I do have a question! What is with those funky shafts on the motor? Do all these motors use that funky helical gear for the shaft? Or is that just a gear over a normal shaft? 

Pete : )

Time to start learning about AC! : )


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

So Eric, Are you going to make an AC inverter kit available? A how to? Do an instructable? In my book you are a genius. Those Seimens motors are awsome with their high revving capability and wide torque curve.

What kind of limits do you see running your motor as far as RPM and volts go?

I have been following a controller build on ecmodder drooling at every progressively better stage of development. He is doing an open source controller 144volt, 500+amp design.

But if you were to make your controller available, I'm sure there would be plenty of folks here that would jump at the chance to be able to build their own.

Great work, you EE guys always amaze me.

Eric (lowly humble software guy).


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

All of the Ford/Siemens motors have that shaft. It's designed to mount to a specialized differential. Etischer found a clever workaround here.

Etischer- I think you're inspiring us with the possibility of good AC power. I'm actually thinking about giving it a go this summer.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

esoneson said:


> So Eric, Are you going to make an AC inverter kit available? A how to? Do an instructable? In my book you are a genius. Those Seimens motors are awsome with their high revving capability and wide torque curve.


 
Yep, I'm hoping to have a product to sell once I get some miles on my car. It should work with ANY AC Induction motor. 

Max RPM from my inverter will be 400Hz, which I'm guessing will bring the Siemens motor up to full speed.

Max voltage right now is around 350 volts. I can make a 700 volt version pretty easily.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

gottdi said:


> I might just do that. But I do have a question! What is with those funky shafts on the motor? Do all these motors use that funky helical gear for the shaft? Or is that just a gear over a normal shaft?
> 
> Pete : )
> 
> Time to start learning about AC! : )


Yea, I am interfacing with the helical gear using a taper lock fitting and a machined coupler. The siemens motor also requires new bearings because the ford transmission was used to lubricate the motor bearings. Without this oil system, new bearings need to be installed.


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## sailfish11 (Sep 15, 2007)

Wow, that's great etischer! I wish this had been around a few months ago when I was putting the system together for my Mustang -- it would have been poetic to have a Ford motor!


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## GKnightBC (Sep 10, 2008)

I've trying to find a good DC to AC controller for one of these, at a reasonable price. ANyone have any source? I have stumbled upon a source for some AC motors for cheap, but of course they are useless without a controller and converter! 
Seeing how you made your own work, so far, any pointers or advice to find one for mine? lol


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Any chance you could tell us a little about the IGBT module you're using? Looks like a triple, but I only see one? Is it a hex with interconnected outputs or something?


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## rankhornjp (Nov 26, 2007)

I think I read somewhere that these motors were "stackable", am I right or am I thinking of something else?


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## rankhornjp (Nov 26, 2007)

etischer said:


> Yep, I'm hoping to have a product to sell once I get some miles on my car. It should work with ANY AC Induction motor.
> 
> Max RPM from my inverter will be 400Hz, which I'm guessing will bring the Siemens motor up to full speed.
> 
> Max voltage right now is around 350 volts. I can make a 700 volt version pretty easily.


From what I'm gathering, you took a 240Vac VFD and hooked up larger IGBTs and a bank of caps to handle the larger amount of current needed by the motor. Am I close? I'm in school (Industrial Maintenance), I have studied VFDs so I'm familiar with the programmability of them. So this is something that I would really enjoy playing with.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I went for a short drive around the block a few times!

http://etischer.com/awdev/alive/test_drive_small.wmv


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

Congrats, car sound great!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

yea, it was super quiet. I could hear the IGBT chatter in the trunk because the seats were folded down. I could barely hear the motor and drivetrain. 

Gonna try to get my brake booster, electric power steering, cooling system, and sensorless vector feedback working!


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2009)

That was sweet. Kinda dangerous using the remote but not too likely that any little ones will be jumping out in that weather. Wet here too. What model VW is that? You so got me wanting to do a NB conversion with this stuff. I am going to be putting in a bid for a motor but I want a motor with a normal output shaft instead of those funky helical shafts. Anyway I will be watching very closely from now on. This has peaked my interest very much. Do you happen to have a web site? I need more input. 

Pete : )


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

here's my website. 

http://etischer.com/awdev/

The car is a 2001 VW Passat.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2009)

etischer said:


> here's my website.
> 
> http://etischer.com/awdev/
> 
> The car is a 2001 VW Passat.



Thank you for the information. I will be asking loads more questions in the coming days. Green Passat. How perfect. Nice car. Always liked the Passat and the Beetle. 

This is one of the first projects I saw that spawned my interest in AC drives but yours cinched the deal.

http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/Welcome.html

Pete : )


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

800 bucks, even better. Your web site is outstanding, and the job you did was very impressive. 

I'd suggest looking into impact protection for the gas tank batteries, provided you haven't already arranged it. My suggestion would be to look at an S10 4x4 pickup, as they have long skinny gas tanks similar to what your battery pack looked like. The 4x4s usually have a thick plastic liner designed to keep large rocks from puncturing the fuel tank. I doubt it would take much to modify one to provide protection for those batteries. As it is, any bouncing rock can potentially knock a hole in one of them.

Be looking forward to seeing what kind of power and acceleration you get out of it. Your video shows it taking off and moving along at a decent clip as it is, but I'd be interested in knowing how well it goes at WOT from a dead stop along with top speed. I'd also be interested in knowing how well the actual vs calculated range works out. I'm sure I'm not the only one. 

Once again, excellent work.


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## esoneson (Sep 1, 2008)

Eric,
With 11,000 RPM as your motor upper limit and the gearing combination you tested with on your first test ride (2nd gear?), do you see any need for any other forward gear? Do you know the gear ratio's for the 2001 Passat transmission you have and the diff ratio? Seems like you could almost get away with never shifting if the acceleration from a stop on a hill is sufficient and your top end seems to be about 80 MPH. What do you think?
Eric


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Second gear at 11k rpm brings me to 100 mph. I know AC Propulsion removes all but 2nd gear from a honda transmission for its conversions. I'm hoping I can keep it in one gear, that would simplify things tremendously. It seemed to accelerate ok on my test drive. I also made it up my steep driveway in second gear without any signs of strain. 




esoneson said:


> Eric,
> With 11,000 RPM as your motor upper limit and the gearing combination you tested with on your first test ride (2nd gear?), do you see any need for any other forward gear? Do you know the gear ratio's for the 2001 Passat transmission you have and the diff ratio? Seems like you could almost get away with never shifting if the acceleration from a stop on a hill is sufficient and your top end seems to be about 80 MPH. What do you think?
> Eric


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## Wattmotion (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm impressed that you took a manufactured Inverter drive and was able to upsize the IGBT and Caps to make it work for you. Did you run into problems with the drive software parameter limitations on current etc? I have a few old Allen Bradley 1305 and 1336 drives I have thought about upsizing but figured the parameters would prevent me from doing so. Also curious how you handled the DC input as the line side of the drive expects AC.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, yea, there are a lot of variables to play with in the software, and you gotta pick hardware that falls within the range the drive is expecting to see. Basically a bit of home work and a bit of trial and error. In my earlier videos you could see how shaky the motor was running. 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "all" industrial AC drives rectify the incoming AC to create a DC bus. I'll go out on another limb and say "all" industrial DC drives require AC power to run. 









Wattmotion said:


> I'm impressed that you took a manufactured Inverter drive and was able to upsize the IGBT and Caps to make it work for you. Did you run into problems with the drive software parameter limitations on current etc? I have a few old Allen Bradley 1305 and 1336 drives I have thought about upsizing but figured the parameters would prevent me from doing so. Also curious how you handled the DC input as the line side of the drive expects AC.


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## Wattmotion (Sep 10, 2008)

So you basically just powered the DC buss, ignored or removed the rectification section of the drive. What brand of drive did you use because I cannot see where I can use a small AB drive and make it big due to the software / firmware. I can see where a simple inverter without 300 or so parameters would be easier to make a big drive.


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

You can feed DC power into a rectifier and it will still out put the same thing... A rectifier is just a big diode. Most devices that use a rectifier can be hooked directly up to DC power and still work fine.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

How heavy is that motor? Is there ANY controller on the market for it?


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> How heavy is that motor?


eBay item 330307774804. Says 160 lbs.



> Is there ANY controller on the market for it?


Don't think so.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Greenflight said:


> You can feed DC power into a rectifier and it will still out put the same thing... A rectifier is just a big diode. Most devices that use a rectifier can be hooked directly up to DC power and still work fine.


If this is the case, doesn't this mean any DC controller should be able to control the motor?


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## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Telco said:


> If this is the case, doesn't this mean any DC controller should be able to control the motor?


No because an AC motor uses frequency/waves to control the motor on three wires, not Pulses on a 2 wire DC system.


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## Greenflight (Sep 13, 2007)

SGC's got it. A 3 phase AC motor like this operates on 3 AC sine wave inputs, whereas a DC motor uses only one DC input. What a motor controller for this motor actually does is first convert the AC input (maybe a single phase 110VAC input) into DC, and then use this DC power to generate the individual AC sine waves.


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## Wattmotion (Sep 10, 2008)

So..again, the drive input is three phase AC... and you have two DC wires to power the drive. What do you do with front end of the drive, or do you simply connect the DC to two legs of the three phase input? I have a single phase drive running the three phase motor on my Bridgeport. But what do you do on larger three phase drives ?

That's why I asked if you stripped out the front end of the drive and basically powered up the DC buss (bypassing the rectifiers) of the drive to achieve what you did.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

If the drive just rectifies the AC into DC, then you can just as easily feed the drive DC. I imagine the drive would precharge itself, but you should check. Also, if you see any control transformers, these will not work on DC. 

Three phase drive is the same, if the drive rectifies the AC, you can connect any two of the three inputs to DC. It would be better to connect straight to the DC bus because all your power is not shared among all the diodes. 





Wattmotion said:


> So..again, the drive input is three phase AC... and you have two DC wires to power the drive. What do you do with front end of the drive, or do you simply connect the DC to two legs of the three phase input? I have a single phase drive running the three phase motor on my Bridgeport. But what do you do on larger three phase drives ?
> 
> That's why I asked if you stripped out the front end of the drive and basically powered up the DC buss (bypassing the rectifiers) of the drive to achieve what you did.


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

E when are you posting on ebay?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> E when are you posting on ebay?


I want to get a few hundred miles on my conversion first. There are still a lot of things I want to get perfect before shipping units to customers. I've learned stories of unsatisfied customers spread like wild fire among the online community. I definitely want to have a precharge circuit built into the drive.


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Greenflight said:


> SGC's got it. A 3 phase AC motor like this operates on 3 AC sine wave inputs, whereas a DC motor uses only one DC input. What a motor controller for this motor actually does is first convert the AC input (maybe a single phase 110VAC input) into DC, and then use this DC power to generate the individual AC sine waves.


K, I can understand this, to a point. If I'm reading this right, to run an AC motor, you are starting with DC in the batteries, which a rectifier converts to AC, which the controller, then splits back to DC so it can feed frequency modulated AC to the motor for the purpose of controlling power to the AC motor, which then converts to DC to actually get the juice in. I know this can't be right. It would make more sense if the batteries were feeding the controller directly as DC, and the controller made the necessary AC signal to the motor. Can anyone tell me where I'm going wrong here? Thanks.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Telco said:


> K, I can understand this, to a point. If I'm reading this right, to run an AC motor, you are starting with DC in the batteries, which a rectifier converts to AC, which the controller, then splits back to DC so it can feed frequency modulated AC to the motor for the purpose of controlling power to the AC motor, which then converts to DC to actually get the juice in. I know this can't be right. It would make more sense if the batteries were feeding the controller directly as DC, and the controller made the necessary AC signal to the motor. Can anyone tell me where I'm going wrong here? Thanks.


The rectifier converts AC to DC. This is not needed because the batteries are DC. The rectifier can be removed (or left in) 

The inverter then uses pwm to generate 3 phase ac power from dc supplied from the batteries. 











The PWM is typically running 3Khz, and the sine wave would typically be 60hz to run a motor at full speed.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

etischer said:


> The rectifier converts AC to DC. This is not needed because the batteries are DC. The rectifier can be removed (or left in)
> 
> The inverter then uses pwm to generate 3 phase ac power from dc supplied from the batteries.
> 
> ...


 

Here is what the sine wave looks like on the drive I made. This is actually jus the top half of a sine wave. Another IGBT makes the bottom half. Although it looks like the voltage is constantly on in the middle, it is actually just switching too fast for the oscope to display. 




















the cursor info shows the frequency is around 3khz.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

rankhornjp said:


> I think I read somewhere that these motors were "stackable", am I right or am I thinking of something else?


 I know the ones you're talking about. Metric Mind is a distributor for Brusa, which makes the ASM-810. It's about 90HP peak, but it's end stackable. (Note: I think Brusa changed their model numbers, and ASM-810 is the old style number.) What I *do* know about that Brusa motor is that it's *wicked* expensive. A couple of years ago when I checked, the motor was US$16,000 and the controller was between US$25-30,000. Oh, and they won't let you buy one without the other.

-M


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

The new Brusa number is ASM 8-24-10, and the price I found was $17,195. It's good for just under 70 HP, peak. I think this is a little rich for EVers like me.

-M


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

Etischer, meant converter, not rectifier, sorry. I understand the basic electronics, where I'm getting stuck is the actual electrical routing since it seems like power keeps getting converted back and forth between DC and AC between the batteries and the actual motor. This seems like a lot of unnecessary loss. Thanks.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Telco said:


> Etischer, meant converter, not rectifier, sorry. I understand the basic electronics, where I'm getting stuck is the actual electrical routing since it seems like power keeps getting converted back and forth between DC and AC between the batteries and the actual motor. This seems like a lot of unnecessary loss. Thanks.


Yea, in an off the shelf industrail drive, they convert AC to DC, then back to AC. This allows them to vary the frequency and voltage of their AC. 

For my application, I don't need the AC to DC conversion, so my drive is just converting DC to AC.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

At that price I'd rather buy the AC propulsion system. 200hp with built in charger and DC-DC. 



Wirecutter said:


> The new Brusa number is ASM 8-24-10, and the price I found was $17,195. It's good for just under 70 HP, peak. I think this is a little rich for EVers like me.
> 
> -M


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Wirecutter said:


> I know the ones you're talking about. Metric Mind is a distributor for Brusa, which makes the ASM-810. It's about 90HP peak, but it's end stackable. (Note: I think Brusa changed their model numbers, and ASM-810 is the old style number.) What I *do* know about that Brusa motor is that it's *wicked* expensive. A couple of years ago when I checked, the motor was US$16,000 and the controller was between US$25-30,000. Oh, and they won't let you buy one without the other.
> 
> -M


I wanted to buy a Bursa 200kW controller. They told me that the 200kW one isn't available any more and offered me the 100kW for 20.000€  And they told me that it is very expensive to adapt their controller to another motor so I should buy bought


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## Telco (Jun 28, 2008)

etischer said:


> Yea, in an off the shelf industrail drive, they convert AC to DC, then back to AC. This allows them to vary the frequency and voltage of their AC.
> 
> For my application, I don't need the AC to DC conversion, so my drive is just converting DC to AC.


K, so I think I have it. The batteries are feeding the controller, and the controller makes all power conversions and is connected to the motor, and there are no other active pieces in the system other than the control equipment like throttle, gauges, ect. Correct?


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi Eric, congrats to reaching your recent milestone!

I've been watching your progress via posts on this forum as well your website from "the day one". Frankly, I must confess I was quite sceptical about this approach, however your efforts and updates are very much appreciated. Therefore would you be please so kind and address some of the following issues (perhaps non-issues afterall), and I know you are still in early development of some of the functions:

1/ Is your hack/exploit allowing for the hook up of the OEM VFD electronics with more powerfull IGBT modules limited only to one specific VFD manuf. or model/year or is it more or less universally applicable?

2/ I've noticed in your close up pictures, that you have mounted several sensors (current, voltage)? on your emotor-VFD cables, is this signal connected directly to the VFD inputs or is there any additional micro board in between, designed by you?

3/ In terms of the future availability of your VFD via ebay-kit, did you perform some innitial EMF tests on your hacked VFD? Most likely, the relaxed authorities in the U.S. won't be looking into this at all, but some potential international customers of yours might see it differently, since it's not easy to legalize EV conversion, especially based on diy high energy parts, for instance in Europe, because of the red tape, etc.

4/ This goes back to #1, is this kit going to be based on one specific brand/product? There is a risk that the company/product might not be available in this turbulent economy after a while..

5/ Would you provide, perhaps in later stage, some numbers/specifications about the DC ripple and other values. Basically to see as to whether your system under regen is safe to the batteries, etc.

6/ How many sw functions of the original VFD are still working?
Can you set individual accel/deaccel. ramps, high-low performance settings, PLC/bus communication etc?

Thanks


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

1/ Is your hack/exploit allowing for the hook up of the OEM VFD electronics with more powerfull IGBT modules limited only to one specific VFD manuf. or model/year or is it more or less universally applicable?

Well, I'm sure there are other VFD's that could be hacked, but I have 8 years of experience with the model VFD I chose. I know all the secret software back doors, and know how to tweek all the motor tuning parameters. Plus I have personal contacts in the company that are providing some support in my hacking efforts. 

2/ I've noticed in your close up pictures, that you have mounted several sensors (current, voltage)? on your emotor-VFD cables, is this signal connected directly to the VFD inputs or is there any additional micro board in between, designed by you?

There is a board I put in for the current transducers. I am also designing a second board to convert the hall effect sensors in the Siemens motor to a quadrature encoder signal. This will allow closed loop vector mode with encoder feedback. I have the board working, I just need to wire it into the car to test it out. This should improve the low speed stability. 

3/ In terms of the future availability of your VFD via ebay-kit, did you perform some innitial EMF tests on your hacked VFD? Most likely, the relaxed authorities in the U.S. won't be looking into this at all, but some potential international customers of yours might see it differently, since it's not easy to legalize EV conversion, especially based on diy high energy parts, for instance in Europe, because of the red tape, etc.

The kit VFD will be housed in a metal box (right now Im using plastic). I also plan to wrap the motor cables in foil tape to reduce emf. I do not plan to have this CE/TUV/UL certified or anything. 

4/ This goes back to #1, is this kit going to be based on one specific brand/product? There is a risk that the company/product might not be available in this turbulent economy after a while..

The VFD mfg I'm using has been around for about 20 years, and they are a big player in the drive business. 

5/ Would you provide, perhaps in later stage, some numbers/specifications about the DC ripple and other values. Basically to see as to whether your system under regen is safe to the batteries, etc.

The drive is self protecting, I believe if the drive will shut off if the dc bus reaches 350 vdc. I can certainly throw a scope on the dc bus and measure ripple. 


6/ How many sw functions of the original VFD are still working?
Can you set individual accel/deaccel. ramps, high-low performance settings, PLC/bus communication etc?

This drive I'm currently using has accel & decel ramps, and autotune. The drive has:
-2 analog inputs. You can use an analog input to set regen torque for example. 

-1 analog output. Can be used to run an analog meter

-6 digital inputs. Can be used to select signals being sent to analog output. 

-2 digital outputs (one being used for drive healthy/contactor enable) The other could be used as a battery low light. 

-rs232 port

-about 50 math and logic function blocks, timers, comparators, PID. 

- Programming software is a free download. I can upload a pic of what the software looks like. I believe the free software lets you do trend charts. 

-Hand held 2 line keypad with customizable screens for displaying things like "MPH", or "DC bus voltage", "motor current", "motor torque". There are about 400 things you can scale and display. 


The drive I'm planning on using for production has a ton more features:
Rotating auto tune.
Torque setpoint for accel and regen brake. 
I plan to program a watt hour meter. 
3 analog inputs
3 analog outputs
up to 8 digital inputs
up to 8 digital outputs
many different pid loops
torque program winder
speed program winder
optional encoder / tach cards
rs232 port, optional Devicenet / profibus/ ethernet/ fiberoptic link 
optional 6.5" programmable touchscreen with analog & digital I/O


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

Hey E, every day you delay this thing hitting the market is another day's $$$ you're doing without! Hurry up already!!!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

ElectriCar said:


> Hey E, every day you delay this thing hitting the market is another day's $$$ you're doing without! Hurry up already!!!


Yea, but I want to make sure the product is mature enough. You have to have things like instructions, documentation, and it has to be bullet proof. I'm still making improvements too =)


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## ElectriCar (Jun 15, 2008)

etischer said:


> ...and it has to be bullet proof.


You know that's right!


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Thanks for your kind and detailed answer. Btw. do I read you correctly that the final production version (ebay-kit) will be based on current/more recent VFD model, not that 8yrs old stuff.. ?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Mesuge said:


> Thanks for your kind and detailed answer. Btw. do I read you correctly that the final production version (ebay-kit) will be based on current/more recent VFD model, not that 8yrs old stuff.. ?


yes, when I make my kit, I will use the latest drive available with the latest firmware. The donor vfd will be brand new. I bought my prototype vfd for $35, it was perfect for experimenting with but I won't have a steady supply of them.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have a new video posted showing the regen capablities. 

I also am using an S ramp instead of a linear ramp, it makes the car much smoother. Im also defining my own v/hz curve until I get current feedback installed. 

http://etischer.com/awdev/video/driving.wmv

At rest the battery pack was at 295v. 

Full throttle 245v

Full regen 345v.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Very cool. That's great work you're doing. I'm hoping that someday your setup might allow higher than 108 volts on my HPG AC31 motor if Curtis or someone else doesn't come up with one, or even if they do if yours is better


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

YEEEAAA!!

I got sensorless vector mode working. 



I just drove about a mile, and what a world of difference. 

In V/Hz mode I had trouble going up my driveway in 1st gear, now with Sensorless vector, I can do it easily in 2nd. It's also nice to have current and torque feedback! I couldn't hold my excitement in, now I finally have my EV Grin!


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## Dalardan (Jul 4, 2008)

Nice! That's a great acheivement! Awesome! Shoot us a pic of your EV grin!

It's really great to see your project going so well, congratulations!

What are the next steps in your planning?

Dalardan


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2009)

etischer said:


> YEEEAAA!!
> 
> I got sensorless vector mode working.
> 
> ...


Way to go! Love hearing that news. Now maybe we can see it in action again?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I think I have most of the bugs worked out, I've been working on it straight for the last 10 hours, I haven't even eaten anything!


I can now command motor torque using the accelerator pedal. When I let off the throttle, the car will coast, or I can dial in some regen drag with my regen pot. It drives just like a real car! I can even shift by setting regen drag to zero before shifting. 

There is a lot of torque available, the car still feels quick starting in second gear. I'm occasionally hitting the 300A limit on the IGBT, and the controller will trip, but since I lowered motor current to 110% I haven't tripped. 

The keypad lets me display actual motor torque, battery volts, motor current. Pretty sweet setup. It also lets me do basic algebra and boolean logic. I'll try to post a pic what the program looks like.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)




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## Usher (Feb 4, 2009)

I know you mentioned you were planning to create kits based on what you're doing here. Do you have any ballpark numbers for price of the kits yet? Also do you have any plans to do some dyno tests with your car. I'd like to see exactly what kind of torque/power numbers the system is making.

Now that I'm finishing up my kit car (with gas engine), I'm starting to think more about the eventual conversion to electric. I was originally planning to design my own controller, but if your kit can make the torque/power numbers I'm looking for, I'll probably just go that route.


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## ngrimm (Oct 19, 2007)

What an accomplishment! Especially considering the amount of time from start to finish. I can imagine you must be very proud. Do you have a ballpark cost of the new inverter itself? Congrats. Norm


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Here is my EV grin! And a spin around the block, I'm also showing off some of the features of my inverter. I can set my drive to 200% torque, but the motor tuning requires alot of magnetising current, about 170 amps at stand still, and about 225 amps during acceleration. It takes some fancy pedal pushing to prevent the car from jerking and tripping on over current, but with more time to tune, I think I can get a reliable 90hp out of this thing. 

In the video the controller was set to 100% torque, and I can drive it like this all day long without tripping. Max current was set to 170 amps. This is only my second day of testing and it is running great! I got alot done this weekend! I'm looking forward to getting the motor tuning dialed in. 

http://etischer.com/awdev/video/sensorless_s.wmv


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I don't have an idea of cost yet, I'm still working to make sure it will be trouble free. Last think I want is to become a tech support line. 

I've been throwing money into additional parts for the inverter, so it's costing more than I originally thought. I'd like to sell it for around 5-6k, but the number seems to keep creeping up =( I'll just have to see what they sell for on ebay.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I didn't think there were inverters available for this motor, on ebay or anywhere.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I didn't think there were inverters available for this motor, on ebay or anywhere.


Yea, I meant I'll put mine on ebay and see how much it sells for. That was the whole reason I built the inverter, nobody was willing to sell me one.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2009)

etischer said:


> Here is my EV grin! And a spin around the block, I'm also showing off some of the features of my inverter. I can set my drive to 200% torque, but the motor tuning requires alot of magnetising current, about 170 amps at stand still, and about 225 amps during acceleration. It takes some fancy pedal pushing to prevent the car from jerking and tripping on over current, but with more time to tune, I think I can get a reliable 90hp out of this thing.
> 
> In the video the controller was set to 100% torque, and I can drive it like this all day long without tripping. Max current was set to 170 amps. This is only my second day of testing and it is running great! I got alot done this weekend! I'm looking forward to getting the motor tuning dialed in.
> 
> http://etischer.com/awdev/video/sensorless_s.wmv


WOW. Very Very nice indeed. I commend you on your hard work and that it has paid off. Now that you have something working I want to go out and build me a nice AC driven VW Beetle. Heck I'd love to put that in my Ghia too. When the inverter is ready for market as a complete unit or a kit put me down for one or maybe two. I will now be on the hunt for one of those drive motors here real soon. I watch and wait for advances every day. This is the best thing I have seen since I have been interested in Electric drive vehicles and since I have build my DC drive VW Ghia. Can't wait. What you have done is nothing short than opening up the market for AC drive conversions. 

Pete : )


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etischer said:


> It's also nice to have current and torque feedback!


Hey etischer,

Nice job. But I am wondering. Do you have a torque sensor? I doubt it. Then how can you say you have torque feedback?

From what I can see, you are running in speed (or frequency) control with a variable torque (actually current) limit. Right?

And you obviously have the encoder working. Why not just run in closed loop vector and get real torque control?

Been down the route of senseless, I mean sensorless, vector and found it wasn't worth the trouble. You like the improvement from going from V/h to sensorless. Try taking the next step from sensorless to closed loop. You'll really like that.

Regards,

major


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I have to take little steps! I did try closed loop vector but there are bugs to be worked out. When troubleshooting you gotta get the simple things working before tackeling the hard things. V/Hz is the most basic mode, then sensorless, then closed loop. If the drive doesn't work in sensorless, closed loop will never work. Once I get sensorless working, I'll start working on closed loop, if it is even necessary. This isn't a turn key inverter, there is alot of troubleshooting required to make thing work. 

The drive is calculating motor torque based on the phase angle between current and voltage, and a mathmatical model of the motor the drive has created during a rotating auto tune. I believe it to be pretty darn accurate. 

Torque is not related to motor current like a DC drive. Motor current can be 200 amps and you can have zero torque output. Since the motor does not have permanent magnets, you have to supply current to induce a magnetic field before the rotor will begin to produce torque. 


Torque is also related to the difference in commanded speed and actual speed, this is known as slip. More slip means more torque. 



major said:


> Hey etischer,
> 
> Nice job. But I am wondering. Do you have a torque sensor? I doubt it. Then how can you say you have torque feedback?
> 
> ...


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## judebert (Apr 16, 2008)

You've done a fantastic job and a great thing for this community!

What are the voltage and current limits on your controller? Will it be easy to modify them?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

judebert said:


> You've done a fantastic job and a great thing for this community!
> 
> What are the voltage and current limits on your controller? Will it be easy to modify them?


 
I've used the controller between 250-350vdc input. My battery voltage is 312. I don't know what the low and high limit are yet. 

The IGBT is rated 300A. So far I am pushing 170A without faults, and I've peaked at 224A for short periods. I've only had sensorless mode working for 2 days, so I still have a bit of tuning I can do. It felt plenty fast starting out in 2nd gear at 224A. 

224A at 312V at 85% efficiency is about 80hp. 

I'm currently limiting the motor to 8000 rpm, about 275hz. I suppose you could go higher, but most transmissions probably aren't designed to run much past 6500 rpm.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

a simple upgrade to the trans would put a electric oil pump / oil cooler , then run small dia. lines to the bearing , gear mesh area , etc . I learned this buy taking helicopter gear boxes apart . ps great work , I just bought a Ford ranger ev with dead battery pack . So if I need a new or hotter controller , you the man !


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My watts/mile on my last trip was 362W/mile from the wall =)


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The motor shaft needs to be flooded, which means both ends of the shaft would need to be sealed. A sump would have to collect the oil that dripped out the bottom of the motor. The tranny would have to be sealed against dirt and water. An oil filtering system would be needed. This would not be a simple task my friend. 



aeroscott said:


> a simple upgrade to the trans would put a electric oil pump / oil cooler , then run small dia. lines to the bearing , gear mesh area , etc . I learned this buy taking helicopter gear boxes apart . ps great work , I just bought a Ford ranger ev with dead battery pack . So if I need a new or hotter controller , you the man !


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I was only talking about up rating the gear box . getting the oil from gearbox then sealing the bell housing to the motor and then assuring that the oil for the transmission syncros is compatible with motor oil is possible but probably complex . I'm not familiar with the motor oiling system . Is the motor shaft plugged at non coupling end , if not a hole could be drilled into the housing to pump oil into the shaft if a seal can be had from end housing to shaft . then plug the spline end . plug and tap the motor drain . I would run separate oil system for the motor . this motor lubing / cooling system could dissipate a lot of heat in an area (rotor core ) that is hard to otherwise cool . do you have pictures of shaft end and motor housing end (inside ). edit; looked over your site again , so the shaft could be oiled if a seal egzists or could be installed .


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

the oil drain hole is on the left about 1/4 of the way down from center. Of course, the oil flung out at the gear would be all over the inside of the transmission bell housing. 


I'm not sure what the advantage would be of putting the work in to make an oiling system. Sealed bearings seem to work well so far.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

Etischer , very nice thanks . oiled bearings last much longer . Jacobs wind generators used oil bath bearing for much longer life . If oil cooling the motor is added longer life because of lower temps . If memory serves 50% increase in continuous rating over water cooled alone ( water and oil cooled ). A well known PHD told me oil cooling was very difficult "it would take 500 tries to get it wright " . I've seen mil aircraft generators that are oil cooled 40 kw the size car alternator . 












9


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes, but I think the complexity of an oil system really detracts from the elegance of an electric car. I'd love to see someone make it work, but I'd rather have the peace of mind knowing the bearings are sealed for life. Obviously Ford did it for a reason, I suspect it was to get more rpm out of the motor since they had a 1 speed gear box. The open bearings also have less friction. There may be some cooling effect, but the ammount of oil flowing through the weep holes is probably pretty small. 

Car is running great. Every day I tweek it, it gets slightly better =)



aeroscott said:


> Etischer , very nice thanks . oiled bearings last much longer . Jacobs wind generators used oil bath bearing for much longer life . If oil cooling the motor is added longer life because of lower temps . If memory serves 50% increase in continuous rating over water cooled alone ( water and oil cooled ). A well known PHD told me oil cooling was very difficult "it would take 500 tries to get it wright " . I've seen mil aircraft generators that are oil cooled 40 kw the size car alternator .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

THAT is magnificent!.. 
I have one question. Is the battery pack you show in your pics the entirety of the traction pack in the vehicle? 
By the way the smoothness of the running motor was perfectly audible on the vid. I have been scheming on an AC system, and I think your package may be something very do-able for folks like me who are beyond the first two or three steps and ready to 'go for it'.
I am just completing my third iteration of a DC system, 108VDC pack. I am just blown away by the beauty and simplicity of your construction... which implies a LOT of work!
THANK YOU!, for the inspiration, and doing the work 'in the trenches' with your AC set-up!
(Hope to be posting a vid myself in the next week and a half!)


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I think I am putting out my 90 horsepower. 

The output from the controller is 170A per leg at 230V. 

230v * 170A * sqrt(3) = 67.7kw = 90hp. 

The motor is advertised as 282 amps, but that adds up to 150hp. They probably are stating total current for all three phases, not per phase current which is what I was using. 

They probably list it as 282 amps to make it comparable to the current rating of a DC motor, since most people don't know how to calculate 3 phase current.


I suppose the way to find out is to throw it on a dyno!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

You're welcome =) It has been alot of work, and I'm gaining more confidence in the reliablity, I'd love to start selling these to customers! 






fugdabug said:


> THAT is magnificent!..
> I have one question. Is the battery pack you show in your pics the entirety of the traction pack in the vehicle?
> By the way the smoothness of the running motor was perfectly audible on the vid. I have been scheming on an AC system, and I think your package may be something very do-able for folks like me who are beyond the first two or three steps and ready to 'go for it'.
> I am just completing my third iteration of a DC system, 108VDC pack. I am just blown away by the beauty and simplicity of your construction... which implies a LOT of work!
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh baby!! I'm now pushing over 400A to the motor (238A per phase), no over current trips, the car is actually fast! If I'm actually pushing 400A at base speed, I should be putting out about 120 hp. 

I can get the front tires to barely start to break loose on a first gear start. I'll post a video later tonight!!! I still have room to increase the motor current, I haven't had a single over current trip yet. I've spent about 40 hours tuning this drive to the motor.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I just hit 87.3 mph according to my GPS! 


http://etischer.com/awdev/video/873.wmv


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

the ford motor is very close in weight and size to the 200 hp Siemens motor . I wonder how close ? sure would be great if they can take that and more .


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The motor is only rated 42 horse by siemens. Ford more than doubled it to 90hp. After running about 12 minutes, alot of it at full throttle on the freeway, the motor temperature was only about 80 degrees. I don't have a cooling system yet, so perhaps there is more than 90 hp to be extracted. Of course I don't know the temperature of the rotor.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I've seen motors rated at 5 hp , 200 lb. and a switched reluctance racing motor at 750 hp 150 lbs.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> I've seen motors rated at 5 hp , 200 lb. and a switched reluctance racing motor at 750 hp 150 lbs.


Well, it all comes down to how much heat you can remove from the motor. There are plenty of motors out there with exaggerated motor specs, and just as many people willing to sell you that motor. I'm not saying 750hp 150lbs isn't possible, I just think it is more likely an exaggerated spec than likely to be real.


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## kd8cgo (May 2, 2009)

*Great Work!*

Hello,

I just wanted to congratulate you on your project using the Ford motor and your very well done controller modifications! You are a great credit to the EV community and the biggest reason I signed up to this forum. I am also fond of VW's and was interested to see you used one as your donor car. Right now I drive a Jetta diesel, but very soon I look forward to driving a VW EV of some variety.

Please add one more interested party to the, I'm sure, growing list of interested EV'ers out there watching your progress with much anticipation.

Philosophically I would love to see your modifications open sourced (I would start burning prototype PCB's and ordering parts tomorrow!); however I think that you are sitting on a nice potential stream of income from your modifications and cannot fault you one bit for entertaining that avenue, your time and effort is certainly valuable. I think an open source EV community would explode based around your work! 

At any rate, well done sir, well done.

John C.
KD8CGO

P.S. I sent a PM to this effect, but I'm not sure if it went through, some forums restrict PM until some number of forums posts, so I replicated the message here in case!


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I second that . Just met a Ford tech ( EV Ranger cert) , he said that the motor has a lot more potential HP then Ford was getting out of it. He also gave me a set of factory manuals ( EV Ranger ) he was throwing out . Looking over the books they went nuts with code , these factory Rangers need some house cleaning . I think they were looking lots of service calls buy adding needless crap .


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## luch (Apr 21, 2009)

bummer link looks to be broken right now


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> I second that . Just met a Ford tech ( EV Ranger cert) , he said that the motor has a lot more potential HP then Ford was getting out of it. He also gave me a set of factory manuals ( EV Ranger ) he was throwing out . Looking over the books they went nuts with code , these factory Rangers need some house cleaning . I think they were looking lots of service calls buy adding needless crap .


Running the settings I have now, the motor barely gets warm, and that was before I even had a radiator installed. My radiator now is just a transmission cooler, about 10"x10"x0.5". There is certainly more power to be tapped, I think I may need a larger IGBT though. I'm pretty satisfied with the power, I only use about half the torque available with normal driving. 50% torque keeps me crusing at 65mph. 

Any good stuff in the manuals? Any additional specs on the motor or controller?


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

I'll look them over better . I didn't see anything on controller insides . But wiring pin outs and fault codes . transmission , steering ,ac , etc . PS got a ride in a Tesla on Sunday , fastest car I've been in .He hit 600 amps just came on sreen long enough to read it then back down to 300 A . pack volts are 400 .


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## Dennis (Feb 25, 2008)

> Well, it all comes down to how much heat you can remove from the motor. There are plenty of motors out there with exaggerated motor specs, and just as many people willing to sell you that motor. I'm not saying 750hp 150lbs isn't possible, I just think it is more likely an exaggerated spec than likely to be real.



Electric motor manufacturers will get fined if they over rate the HP rating of their motors unless they specify duty cycle rating. If you do see an over rated motor then it is because the motor customer such as Sears for example slapped a sticker on their product to make it seem better than it really is. Their is no law forbidding the outrageous HP claims for the seller to use, just for the manufacturer of the motor. 

However, if the motor is meant for traction duty then it will be insulated with at least class F insulation or class H which is rated for 356 F!! Usually they will specify how long the motor can be overloaded for X amount of minutes. So eighty degrees Fahrenheit is nothing compared to what the traction motor is well capable of handling. Heck train traction motors are rated to work reliably at a 230 F rise above an ambient temp of 113 F with a forced ventilation system of course, but yeah heat removal would allow a much higher peak rating as you stated. Just don't get worried over 80 F. It has to get quite a bit hotter than that before you have to worry.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I wasn't at all worried about the 80F. My concern was the 1 Awg motor cables getting warm. They are about 3/8" diameter, much larger than the diameter of wire inside the motor. They were only getting warm when I was trying to pull 200% motor current, I don't know how hot the coil windings were getting, but I'm sure they were quite hot. I also don't know how much of the rotor heat gets transmitted to the water jacket. The rotor could be red hot, but the water jacket will be cool. 





Dennis said:


> Electric motor manufacturers will get fined if they over rate the HP rating of their motors unless they specify duty cycle rating. If you do see an over rated motor then it is because the motor customer such as Sears for example slapped a sticker on their product to make it seem better than it really is. Their is no law forbidding the outrageous HP claims for the seller to use, just for the manufacturer of the motor.
> 
> However, if the motor is meant for traction duty then it will be insulated with at least class F insulation or class H which is rated for 356 F!! Usually they will specify how long the motor can be overloaded for X amount of minutes. So eighty degrees Fahrenheit is nothing compared to what the traction motor is well capable of handling. Heck train traction motors are rated to work reliably at a 230 F rise above an ambient temp of 113 F with a forced ventilation system of course, but yeah heat removal would allow a much higher peak rating as you stated. Just don't get worried over 80 F. It has to get quite a bit hotter than that before you have to worry.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

http://etischer.com/awdev/video/burnout.avi

(This was filmed on a closed section of road in a construction zone with no other cars around).

I think the burnout could have been longer, but the cable for my current transducer got yanked out in the turn and shut the drive down.

The drive was set to 495 amps at 230 volts.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

etischer said:


> I think I am putting out my 90 horsepower.
> 
> The output from the controller is 170A per leg at 230V.
> 
> 230v * 170A * sqrt(3) = 67.7kw = 90hp.


That's apparent power. Multiply it by power factor of the motor.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

yarross said:


> That's apparent power. Multiply it by power factor of the motor.



In the video the drive was doing 285a per phase, 495a for all three phases. There is no nameplate on the motor, so I don't know what the power factor is for it. I'll definitely throw it on a dyno and see what the numbers are. It may also help me tune it better.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I got my trending function working. 0-60 is about 20 seconds.










Magenta - DC Bus Voltage (0-400 VDC)
Red - Motor RPM x 20 (0-8000 RPM)
Blue - Motor current (0-400 Amps/Phase) 
Lt. Blue - Throttle position (0-125% torque demand)


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

etischer said:


> Lt. Blue - Throttle position (0-125% torque demand)


So you setup is U/f or some kind of torque control?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

yarross said:


> So you setup is U/f or some kind of torque control?


It is running in a vector mode using current feedback. 

Here is my latest speed record, 98.6mph. It was still accelerating, it will easily break 100mph on flat ground! My previous record was 87mph with the current limited at 300A, I am now running 430A!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

fullhouse said:


> wow! its a great improvement. Are you planning to maintain it or improve more? I think its good enough.


There are plenty of things I can improve! Most of them will have to wait a few weeks until I get my spare motor. I would like to give closed loop vector mode a try once I get an encoder mounted. 

I was also thinking of swtiching to 450A IGBTs. Right now I'm using 300 IGBTs. 300A is plenty of power, but 450 would be 150% more than the 130% I'm at already =) That would put me up to 240hp =)


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## Rjay (May 17, 2009)

Hi Eric,

Nice plot! So, it looks like the motor has a unloaded speed of about 3800 RPM (2 pole?). The current is dropping right at that time so it makes sense. Your power has topped out right there....constant from then on as current drops and RPM increases. To get your best acceleration it would seem to be best to keep it below 3800 all the way up (I bet you could feel this). Also, the voltage drop is robbing precious power. Is there anything you can do about it? Is this cables or batteries or both? I am also still curious why the acceleration is so slow. Can this be improved in the software. 

-Rjay


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I just bought a spare motor on ebay, if you offer 1500 they will accept the offer. Mavin had 300 of these motors, he says hes down to 30 so he's less willing to wheel and deal. Better snatch one up while they are still around. 

I bought my first one for 900 canadian. Now that some of us are using them successfully, it is no longer sold as a paper weight. 




gottdi said:


> If I could find one of those motors for $800 I'd buy one now and wait till a good controller come out then build my EV. All the ones on Ebay are at $2k each. OUCH.
> 
> Pete : )
> 
> If you know where I can get one and one of your controllers when you are finished I will buy them. Guaranteed.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

This is a great build and I have enjoyed following it. 
I thought that I should see about a motor since there were so few left
and it is really starting to look exciting.
I waited too long and now it's too late to get one from Mavin.
They have sold the remainder of the inventory to Evolve. 
Another lesson learned!

--Mark


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

If you're looking for AC systems evcomponents just bought a bunch of slightly used and NOS AC55's and controllers and are selling them for a great price, under $4K, about half what they normally go for.
http://www.evcomponents.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=AC55


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

etischer said:


> I just bought a spare motor on ebay, if you offer 1500 they will accept the offer. Mavin had 300 of these motors, he says hes down to 30 so he's less willing to wheel and deal. Better snatch one up while they are still around.
> 
> I bought my first one for 900 canadian. Now that some of us are using them successfully, it is no longer sold as a paper weight.


Looks like they are all gone, no more Ford Siemens motors! Hope you got one.


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## Rjay (May 17, 2009)

I was able to buy just about the last one. Eric, I think you bought one just before me. The remainder were bought by Evolveit! motors here in Colorado. I hear they are doing some kind of conversion down in Florida. My motor arrived yesterday and it's a beaut! 

Now I have to hook up some sparky stuff to make it turn! ;-)

-Rjay


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## CNCRouterman (May 5, 2008)

Great work!
Too bad I just finished reading this today only to find out that the motors are no longer available!

That said, the controller aspect still holds great promise. Wish I could get involved in helping you move it to market though.

Have a great day!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Wow, getting in at the last minute too I see. I'm glad you got your hands on one. It's kinda sad to see someone buy 27 of them, hopefully they are put to good use. Evolveit motors gave me a ring =)




Rjay said:


> I was able to buy just about the last one. Eric, I think you bought one just before me. The remainder were bought by Evolveit! motors here in Colorado. I hear they are doing some kind of conversion down in Florida. My motor arrived yesterday and it's a beaut!
> 
> Now I have to hook up some sparky stuff to make it turn! ;-)
> 
> -Rjay


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

I'll keep my eye out for one anyway. Someone may have one they won't use and it could come up on e-bay.
I am really impressed with your progress on the tuning.
I'm a bit concerned about the headroom with the 300 amp module
and wonder if (actually:when) you are going to try the 450 or 600!
I work 2 jobs and I'm doing my best to stay up to date between here
and your web site.
If anyone knows of a ford/siemens that won't be used, I'd be interested.
I do have a 30hp industrial 3 phase motor, but it's a beast, and I want liquid cooling in a car motor and controller.


--Mark


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

the 450 amp module would certainly make the controller more robust, but add cost. There are also twice as many connections to the larger igbt.

The 300 amp igbt is 300 amps per phase, so really it is 520A. Should have plenty of overhead. I'm currently running 240a max per phase.

I'm working my ass off too. There are alot of machine shops hurting for work, so I might hire someone to design the bus bars, cold plate and enclosure for the 450amp igbt. There are some circuitry differences too, it isn't just a clean swap.




Weisheimer said:


> I'll keep my eye out for one anyway. Someone may have one they won't use and it could come up on e-bay.
> I am really impressed with your progress on the tuning.
> I'm a bit concerned about the headroom with the 300 amp module
> and wonder if (actually:when) you are going to try the 450 or 600!
> ...


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

Did you ever consider the option of rather focusing on the other end of the spectrum? Say 45-50-60kW peak drivetrains, where you can still be in the sweetspot for using those available industrial induction motors under 120kg. These <60kW peak drives might be almost direct competition to AzureDynamics or Otmar (Zilla) if he ever finishes his TriZilla AC controller.. Also any plans on higher voltage "con-version" drives, ~600VDC?


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

oops double post sorry


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My controller should run those motors fine. But Im currently focused on the Ford Siemens motor because there is no inverter available for it. why focus on territory with competitors?

I could easily design the inverter to run off 600v, but there are industrial inverters available off the shelf that will do that. above 60 hp there are no 300 volt inverters available, so that is where I'm focused. I'm just working on this project in my spare time, and I only have a siemens/ford motor to play with. If someone had a different motor installed in a car and needed an inverter I could tune my inverter to work I'm sure.






Mesuge said:


> Did you ever consider the option of rather focusing on the other end of the spectrum? Say 45-50-60kW peak drivetrains, where you can still be in the sweetspot for using those available industrial induction motors under 120kg. These <60kW peak drives might be almost direct competition to AzureDynamics or Otmar (Zilla) if he ever finishes his TriZilla AC controller.. Also any plans on higher voltage "con-version" drives, ~600VDC?


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## Mesuge (Mar 6, 2008)

I gather that the major appeal of your *solution (and hinted future ebay kit sales) was based on the idea of upgrading inexpensive industrial VFDs (~5kW) to much higher power output level. Yes, it is possible to buy ~100kW peak industrial VFDs but they are too big and over expensive, the same applies for emotors in this category..

Now, from the start it was clear that the Siemens 67kW motors were just few remaining leftovers of the 1990s and Siemens has not re-started the production of this family of passanger car EV grade drivetrains yet (although some new prototypes exist in Europe but it will be expensive as brand new item in production anyway).

So, imagine your prospective customer, what kind of deal could you offer?? To source no longer available Siemens or brand new emotors from MES-DEA/Brusa, AzureDynamics, while their dealers are reknown to sell only motor+inverter combo?

*Heh, why focus on competitors? I thought that by this VFD upgrage method you can deliver BELLOW the price level of say AzureD AC55 kit..


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

There are more Ford Siemens motors out there than identical custom wound industrial motors. I'll have to see how much work it would be to get a custom wound motor running. I'm not opposed to trying to fill the void, it may just be a big time sink for a one off controller. I definitely won't be trying to make controllers for motors which already have a controller available, if you have an azure motor, probably cheapest to buy the azure inverter.

If you have a custom wound motor, I'd be happy to hook my inverter up and try it out =)





Mesuge said:


> I gather that the major appeal of your *solution (and hinted future ebay kit sales) was based on the idea of upgrading inexpensive industrial VFDs (~5kW) to much higher power output level. Yes, it is possible to buy ~100kW peak industrial VFDs but they are too big and over expensive, the same applies for emotors in this category..
> 
> Now, from the start it was clear that the Siemens 67kW motors were just few remaining leftovers of the 1990s and Siemens has not re-started the production of this family of passanger car EV grade drivetrains yet (although some new prototypes exist in Europe but it will be expensive as brand new item in production anyway).
> 
> ...


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Magenta - DC Bus Voltage (0-400 VDC)
Red - Motor RPM x 20 (0-8000 RPM)
Blue - Motor current (0-400 Amps/Phase) 
Lt. Blue - Throttle position (0-140% torque demand) 

I got zero to 60 down to 16 seconds! 

Current is up to 265a from 235a! Slowly but surely I'm getting every last watt out of this controller =)


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## Rjay (May 17, 2009)

Nice work! Getting snappier every day.

Eric,

2 questions....

Why does the motor current lead the throttle in the first second?

Is your vector control using field oriented control with true torque and flux separation? Rockwell calls this their "Force Technology" and claims full torque at zero RPM. They also claim IP on this so I wondered if it was smoke or really an advantage.

-Rjay


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Rjay said:


> Nice work! Getting snappier every day.
> 
> Why does the motor current lead the throttle in the first second?
> 
> ...


The current rises faster than the throttle, but they both start at the same time. I have to gradually increase the throttle so the wheels don't slip. 

Rockwell/Allen Bradley's technology is slightly better than sensorless vector (which I'm using). It can sample the motor current much faster, and uses this data to characterize the motor on the fly. It has high bandwith current transducers, and a fast processor to make it work.

did you notice my throttle position goes to 140 now =) I think the little speed hicup in the first second was the wheels chirping. It will break the tires loose if I just stab the throttle in 1st gear.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

fullhouse said:


> you did a good job, never tried to do that. Whats the best throttle to use?


Are you asking what pedal am I using? The car I'm using had a throttle by wire already, so I'm using the stock Passat pedal. The automatic tranny models came with a pedal with a kick down region for the last 15%


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Rjay said:


> Nice work! Getting snappier every day.
> 
> Eric,:
> 
> ...


This video should explain how the "force vector" control mode works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtuqjFf7-N4


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## Rjay (May 17, 2009)

LOL!

I'll have to find the "Ambifacient lunar dingle arm"


Here is a bit of a better explanation for us laymen. They walk you through pretty easily with last configuration explaining how to use the Force.

http://literature.rockwellautomation.com/idc/groups/literature/documents/wp/drives-wp002_-en-p.pdf

-Rjay


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The article is from June 2000 =) Technology was still very new back then, and vector drives still reverted back to volts/hz mode at low speed, meaning they didn't have any zero speed torque. This was the case with the first inverter I hacked. 

I think sensorless vector drives now are pretty much on par with servo control, and provide full torque at zero speed. It would be interesting to compare the two now. I think Force Technology is pretty average compared to other technologies these days. 

Having used both Eurotherm/SSD and Allen Bradley drives over the last 8 years, I can tell you AB is about 5 years behind. The only reason we use 
AB is because customers are familiar with the AB name and request it. It is certainly not my first choice when trying to control torque/speed/tension. For position control in pick and place applications, AB servos are awesome.



Rjay said:


> LOL!
> 
> I'll have to find the "Ambifacient lunar dingle arm"
> 
> ...


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## Rjay (May 17, 2009)

Eric,

You obviously have a lot of practical experience with these manufacturers and it shows . I will investigate SSD further and Siemens to see what they have. I think the base sensorless vector controls all seem to do the same things across RPM, except for the low RPM. This issue is so important to the base car design and I hate to leave anything on the table. So I take it that you believe your drive is getting good torque at low RPM?

BTW, I would like to be worried about breaking my tires loose on the way up to 60 mph too. A nice problem to have!

-Rjay


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I think the spec you are interested in is the speed ratio. For example 2000:1 means you can run 1 rpm to 2000 rpm while maintaining the rated speed regulation. Same goes for torque. 





Rjay said:


> Eric,
> 
> You obviously have a lot of practical experience with these manufacturers and it shows . I will investigate SSD further and Siemens to see what they have. I think the base sensorless vector controls all seem to do the same things across RPM, except for the low RPM. This issue is so important to the base car design and I hate to leave anything on the table. So I take it that you believe your drive is getting good torque at low RPM?
> 
> ...


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## Rjay (May 17, 2009)

Eric,

I still maintain that the Flux oriented control helps you with the lowest RPM. Your curve when bumping the current up shows a lag in RPM for about 1/4-1/2 second. Don't get me wrong, these charts and the general performance is great, I am just wondering if your drive has this separation algorithm implemented. In that AB article on AC drives, they show that drop in torque for the first instance and it seems to be the differentiator. So...a few questions.

- Do you have this Flux oriented control? I see a picture of your SSD drive but I don't know the model number.

- What do your voltage (at the motor) curves look like when layed on your plots? This may help to better understand your torque curve...or can you plot torque?

- What do you think is causing the big sag in voltage as your motor goes up to about 4000 RPM? Is it battery, is it cable/connection...seems like a lot.

- You mention that you have a 6 pole motor but the Siemens 1PV series says they are 4's. Did you see 6 when you opened it up? Not to be combative, I just have the same motor and am trying to figure out what the heck I bought!

-Rjay


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

-If anybody here has a new unit and wants to sell for the mavin price, please shoot me a PM.

I was stunned when I saw these motors gone from eBay, I think they have been selling there since 2007! 

Of course I had thought from time to time of asking mavin how many he had left and how fast they were selling but never did :-(.

I have been meaning to pick up one of these for a winter project but looks like I may be looking for a different motor now.

I have an email out to Evolveit but don't have very high hopes.



-On another note... where on earth did over 200 of these motors go?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I semi-officially weighed my car today on a truck scale. The car and driver weigh 4200 Lbs. 

My best 0-60 is 16 seconds, not too bad if I say so myself 

I have a friend with the pocket dyno app on his iphone, gonna see what numbers I can make!


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> I semi-officially weighed my car today on a truck scale. The car and driver weigh 4200 Lbs.
> 
> My best 0-60 is 16 seconds, not too bad if I say so myself
> 
> I have a friend with the pocket dyno app on his iphone, gonna see what numbers I can make!


Did you model your 0-60 performance before your build? If so, how does the model compare to actual performance?

I've done extensive modelling on my planned conversion and am very curious to see how close the model is to reality. My pack voltage will be about 615VDC (3.2V/cell) and the inverters are good for around 100A per phase. I'm working on my own pair of inverters driving two 11kW (industrial) induction motors in a Toyota MR2. The motors will drive the half shafts through toothed belt reduction with no differential. See my blog for some details.

Just got the car into the garage last week. Hopefully I'll have the engine out within the next day or two. After that I'll be able to see exactly where everything will fit. A fair bit of fabrication to do. Quite exciting!


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## tgrandahl (Jan 24, 2009)

etischer said:


> I semi-officially weighed my car today on a truck scale. The car and driver weigh 4200 Lbs.
> 
> My best 0-60 is 16 seconds, not too bad if I say so myself
> 
> I have a friend with the pocket dyno app on his iphone, gonna see what numbers I can make!


Very nice I would guess your right around the weight of the ranger. Im interested to see how your iDyno results look.

Curious how you considered the drivetrain losses into your EV Calculator Spreadsheet on your blog. Ever consider how it would perform with just FWD? that is if you could keep the tires from spinning.

Samborambo,
look at the EV calculator spreadsheet on the bottom of his website, its scary how close the calculations are. Then again its also quite pleasing, good work etischer.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Im 1.8 seconds faster than my calculations, but I think it would be dead on if I was using only 100% rated current. Im faster than the ranger ev, and rav4 ev, so I feel pretty satisfied =)

Sounds just like Roger Whites MR2 with two belt driven ac motors. Why do you need to go to 600 volts? 230v 11kw motors and inverters should be easy to find, just ask Roger. The only thing I didn't like about Rogers MR2 was the belt noise, I would spend some time researching what belts and sprockets are quiet. What peformace numbers are your calculations making? How much power are you expecting to make?







samborambo said:


> Did you model your 0-60 performance before your build? If so, how does the model compare to actual performance?
> 
> I've done extensive modelling on my planned conversion and am very curious to see how close the model is to reality. My pack voltage will be about 615VDC (3.2V/cell) and the inverters are good for around 100A per phase. I'm working on my own pair of inverters driving two 11kW (industrial) induction motors in a Toyota MR2. The motors will drive the half shafts through toothed belt reduction with no differential. See my blog for some details.
> 
> Just got the car into the garage last week. Hopefully I'll have the engine out within the next day or two. After that I'll be able to see exactly where everything will fit. A fair bit of fabrication to do. Quite exciting!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh, I am only driving the front wheels. I didn't factor in drivetrain losses in my calcs, I imagine they are small relative to 90hp.



tgrandahl said:


> Very nice I would guess your right around the weight of the ranger. Im interested to see how your iDyno results look.
> 
> Curious how you considered the drivetrain losses into your EV Calculator Spreadsheet on your blog. Ever consider how it would perform with just FWD? that is if you could keep the tires from spinning.
> 
> ...


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> Im 1.8 seconds faster than my calculations, but I think it would be dead on if I was using only 100% rated current. Im faster than the ranger ev, and rav4 ev, so I feel pretty satisfied =)
> 
> Sounds just like Roger Whites MR2 with two belt driven ac motors. Why do you need to go to 600 volts? 230v 11kw motors and inverters should be easy to find, just ask Roger. The only thing I didn't like about Rogers MR2 was the belt noise, I would spend some time researching what belts and sprockets are quiet. What peformace numbers are your calculations making? How much power are you expecting to make?


I punched in your figures into my model and got roughly the same result which is quite exciting. My MR2 0-60mph is between 8.5 -10 seconds depending on weight (at best 1300kg loaded). The battery should be good for 70kW+ depending on how much faith you put in Sky Energy's datasheets. They're 11kW motors but the ABB datasheet specifies a max torque of 450%. I'm looking to get at least 45kW out of each motor.

Roger White's Pontiac is a good example of the toothed belt implemented in an EV. He's serially connected two induction motors with a belt drive and plugged them into a transmission. I'll have two belt drives on to each half shaft. I was under the car last night and have seen the extent of what the motor mounts need to incorporate. I'll need a pair of pillow blocks and sealed bearings for the half shaft axles. It appear's Roger used Goodyear EP belts which I heard were reasonably quiet. I'm surprised he's had noise issues with it. I think I may have to research the optimum belt design.

Why am I going with such high voltage? Well, with the exception of the US and Japan, no other country uses 230VAC phase to phase motors. The most common type of 3 phase induction motor is 380V-415V. There is also benefit to 230V motors using a much higher voltage bus - as long as the winding insulation can withstand it. Past the base speed you can keep increasing the voltage to avoid field weakening and keep constant torque - effectively increasing the power available at high speed. 

High voltage = good. High current is the devil.

I'm going to keep the auto selector in the MR2 and may use the low stage positions for switching delta star in a contact box. This effectively gives more current available at lower RPM.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I can't comment on the accuracy of these dyno charts, but here are the results from the ipod ap "pocket dyno". This was a typical result from making multiple runs

My car weighed in at 4200lbs including driver. 










Results from this test were within 1% of the average. The average was made up of 10 runs 0-60 in both directions.


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## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

etischer said:


> This video should explain how the "force vector" control mode works
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtuqjFf7-N4


"6 hydrocopic marzelvanes, so fitted to the ambifacient lunar waneshaft so that side-fumbing was effectively prevented."

  Great stuff.


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## Weisheimer (May 11, 2009)

Eric,

Do the vertical columns represent time, or speed?
The consistent power that the motor and controller are
delivering is impressive. The tuning looks good!

You mentioned getting a second motor for autotuning.
I am still searching for one of these motors (and I am apparently not alone!)
and I have a couple of questions about the autotuning.
It seems to need to be done with an un-coupled motor if you need a spare.
Did you try autotuning with the transmission in neutral prior to getting a spare?
If you did, did you find much difference when you later autotuned with the spare?

I am curious because finding this motor is more challenging now and if a different
motor is chosen to use with your controller, is there a chance that retaining the
clutch function, or putting the transmission in neutral, will allow a good autotune?

Thanks

--Mark


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The x is distance 0 to 1/4 mile
The y is calculated horsepower based on acceleration and weight

I didnt achieve what I was trying to with the spare motor. The motor is supposed to be decoupled from the load for an autotune. 

here is a tune (not related to autotune) from about 2 weeks ago, you can see I now have the torque kicking in sooner. This tune has a higher peak hp, but less area under the curve. 















Weisheimer said:


> Eric,
> 
> Do the vertical columns represent time, or speed?
> The consistent power that the motor and controller are
> ...


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## vwdevotee (Mar 8, 2008)

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but if you reused the control and firing circuits from an existing AC drive, how is the driving feel? When I looked at them they seemed to have speed (only) set through the potentiometer. Since an ICE engine controls the torque directly with the pedal, there would have to be a really unnatural feeling of not pressing harder on hills. Did you modify the control algorithm to get a natural feel?

Thanks!


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My car feels just like a normal car really. The throttle pedal controls motor torque (which is basically acceleration). 



vwdevotee said:


> Forgive me if this has already been asked, but if you reused the control and firing circuits from an existing AC drive, how is the driving feel? When I looked at them they seemed to have speed (only) set through the potentiometer. Since an ICE engine controls the torque directly with the pedal, there would have to be a really unnatural feeling of not pressing harder on hills. Did you modify the control algorithm to get a natural feel?
> 
> Thanks!


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Etischer could you build these controllers for 11kw 4 pole industrial motor
like those cheaply available from ABB and others with alloy frames?

If so what peak can be had with proper air cooling?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I could design something to only put out 11kw, but it would be far cheaper to just buy the ABB inverter. Like you said, they are cheaply available already. 



OHM said:


> Etischer could you build these controllers for 11kw 4 pole industrial motor
> like those cheaply available from ABB and others with alloy frames?
> 
> If so what peak can be had with proper air cooling?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Aren't the ABB drives designed to use AC line power, not DC pack power? Do they offer traction drives?


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

etischer said:


> I could design something to only put out 11kw, but it would be far cheaper to just buy the ABB inverter. Like you said, they are cheaply available already.


Sorry I didnt word it properly, I meant using your design on cheaply available 11kw motors from ABB not their inverters they are just
too big and complicated.
An Aussie member has made 48kw peak from his 11kw motor and
just wondering if your design could do the same or better with the
right cooling or bigger industrial motor.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

don't know how much overload you should expect from an 11kw motor. If you buy a motor, atleast make sure it is "inverter duty rated". I would also buy a motor that is TENV (no fan). The fan will be hella loud and probably won't be rated for the rpm you want to run. An AC servo motor will have higher power for a given size, higher rpm limit (10k). Most industrial motors are only rated 1750rpm base speed, 3500 max. The Siemens motor I am using has a base speed of 3500rpm, and I run it up to 8500 max. The high rpm is where you get the horsepower. 

Maybe search for Indramat servo motors, I believe they have big 230v servo motors. Servo motors are capable of much faster response, I don't know how well my inverter will work with them though, might have trouble tuning it. These big servos brand new were probably upwards of $10k, might find a cheap one on ebay. 












Here's a nice big 78kw one =) 





OHM said:


> Sorry I didnt word it properly, I meant using your design on cheaply available 11kw motors from ABB not their inverters they are just
> too big and complicated.
> An Aussie member has made 48kw peak from his 11kw motor and
> just wondering if your design could do the same or better with the
> right cooling or bigger industrial motor.


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## samborambo (Aug 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> don't know how much overload you should expect from an 11kw motor. If you buy a motor, atleast make sure it is "inverter duty rated". I would also buy a motor that is TENV (no fan). The fan will be hella loud and probably won't be rated for the rpm you want to run. An AC servo motor will have higher power for a given size, higher rpm limit (10k). Most industrial motors are only rated 1750rpm base speed, 3500 max. The Siemens motor I am using has a base speed of 3500rpm, and I run it up to 8500 max. The high rpm is where you get the horsepower.
> 
> Maybe search for Indramat servo motors, I believe they have big 230v servo motors. Servo motors are capable of much faster response, I don't know how well my inverter will work with them though, might have trouble tuning it. These big servos brand new were probably upwards of $10k, might find a cheap one on ebay.
> 
> Here's a nice big 78kw one =)


TENV motors are heavier for the same continuous rating and have less overload ability. The aussies who have been modifying ACIMs have fitted DC radiator type fans in place of the shaft driven fan. It's much quieter and gives cooling at low RPM for around town driving.

I've only really looked at Baldor and ABB catalogues but the current line up from ABB is "inverter duty" as standard. Also the max speed is a lot higher than the synchronous speed (x2). Iron losses increase with frequency though. 

Have a read of the AC Motor Selection wiki page: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=61212#post61212

I've added a few ABB motors and a link to their catalogue. The motors are typically capable of 3x to 4.5x torque overload for short periods of time (limited by heating effect).


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## OHM (Jun 30, 2008)

Thank you for the links and info

How about this motor then:

ABB 3GAA 131 , 
317-**E , 
Industrial VSD , 
Cont. Power: 25hp/18.5kW
Peak Power: 94hp/70kW
Peak Torque: 203/275
Weight/Mass: 210 LBS / 95 KG
diameter: 10.3in/260mm
Length: 18.5in/470mm
Voltage: 220V-690V
RPM: 6,000 max
http://www.abb.com/product/seitp322/a3d9fa775e74dae2c125744f00330bbe.aspx

Etischer can your controller run something like this or is this motor useless as it seems to be a 2 pole motor?


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

etischer said:


> Well, yea, there are a lot of variables to play with in the software, and you gotta pick hardware that falls within the range the drive is expecting to see. Basically a bit of home work and a bit of trial and error. In my earlier videos you could see how shaky the motor was running.
> 
> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "all" industrial AC drives rectify the incoming AC to create a DC bus. I'll go out on another limb and say "all" industrial DC drives require AC power to run.


I know this is an old thread, but since I have been tinkering with something similar lately, I thought I might see if anyone is paying attention. Both of the "limbs" you've gone out onto appear to be correct. I have two AC drives that accept 3-phase in. Both of them rectify the input to a DC bus and both of them appear to require an AC signal.

*Etischer, how did you deal with this on your drive?*

The AC signal looks like it's important for fault diagnosis. For example, if one of the three phases on the input side goes dead, then the drive might shut itself off. 

I am using a 15 hp ABB drive that sees all three phases on the logic side of the controller. I also have an E-Plus drive that sees only 2 phases on the logic side. The E-Plus drive couldn't possibly see all three phases that way though. That would make it a lot easier to use a 12V to 220V inverter to trick it into thinking that there was a regular line connection to the grid. I wonder if the home-made Siemens controller does something similar.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My inverter has an option to disable certain faults, so phase loss is one of those faults I disabled. Other brands of inverters (Allen Bradley) have also given me this option since it should be possible to run a 3 phase inverter on only 2 phases (although the power rating will be reduced)

To answer OHMs question; I have not run a 2 pole motor, but my inverter can be configured to run a 2,4,6,8,10 or 12 pole motor. 




xrotaryguy said:


> I know this is an old thread, but since I have been tinkering with something similar lately, I thought I might see if anyone is paying attention. Both of the "limbs" you've gone out onto appear to be correct. I have two AC drives that accept 3-phase in. Both of them rectify the input to a DC bus and both of them appear to require an AC signal.
> 
> *Etischer, how did you deal with this on your drive?*
> 
> ...


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## xrotaryguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I see. I have not been able to find ANY meus to speak of with my E-Plus controller. I can't even find any documentation on that thing. I'll keep working with this same controller for a little while yet. Eventually though, maybe I' should fire up the ABB controller that I have and see if I can get something going with that machine instead.

Thanks for the input.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I just made a major break through with my inverter!!! 

I made a major program change and I got the current loop really stable, which allows me to run closer to the 300A limit of my IGBTs. I can hold the current much farther out in the RPM range now too. I'll have specific numbers tomorrow, but tonight, I am breaking the tires loose in 2nd gear, something I've never been able to do before. Judging by my ammeter, I'm pulling about 15% more power than before. 

I'm hoping to get my current profile mapped out and run a few 0-60's to see how it has improved.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

etischer said:


> allows me to run closer to the 300A limit of my IGBTs.


Hmmm, aren't you worried about pushing your IGBTs too close to the thermal stress limit? All sources I know devise derating power devices to about half of their ratings just to keep them operational for years.


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

yarross said:


> Hmmm, aren't you worried about pushing your IGBTs too close to the thermal stress limit? All sources I know devise derating power devices to about half of their ratings just to keep them operational for years.


yarross - 50% derating is a bit steep for industrial modules; that _rule of thumb_ is more appropriate for discrete components. For industrial modules a better rule of thumb is to limit current to whatever the 80C case temp spec is. That's usually 65% to 80% of the (mythical) 25C figure.

That said, the cooler you can keep the junction temperature below 150C (typical operating limit of the hard solder used for "die attach"), and the less wide a range of temperature swing you subject the chips inside to, the longer the modules will last

Even still, they will typically take 10k full temperature swing cycles (25C to 150C then back) before the die attach fails from fatigue. That's not too many cycles for an industrial VFD used 24/7, but it's probably MORE than plenty in an EV that can be used for a maximum of 1 hour at a time (unless etischer here is now towing along a generator and/or big battery trailer  )


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks for the heads up, I never considered thermal cycling on the IGBT to be an issue. I'll give PowerEx a call on monday and ask them what issues I might have running at the 300 amp limit. I'm using the IGBT's alarm output to shut off the inverter, so there is some built in protection. I think I'm more concerned about pulling 3C from the Thunderskys, I've always kept them at 2.6C. 

During my 60 mile daily commute I rarely pull more than 160A (68hp) even though 260A are on tap. The car only draws 60 amps maintaining 60 mph. I don't need 300 amps, but it sure is sweet to have. The power is also delivered over a wider rpm range, so even setting the current limit back to 260 is still quite an improvement over what I had. 















Tesseract said:


> yarross - 50% derating is a bit steep for industrial modules; that _rule of thumb_ is more appropriate for discrete components. For industrial modules a better rule of thumb is to limit current to whatever the 80C case temp spec is. That's usually 65% to 80% of the (mythical) 25C figure.
> 
> That said, the cooler you can keep the junction temperature below 150C (typical operating limit of the hard solder used for "die attach"), and the less wide a range of temperature swing you subject the chips inside to, the longer the modules will last
> 
> Even still, they will typically take 10k full temperature swing cycles (25C to 150C then back) before the die attach fails from fatigue. That's not too many cycles for an industrial VFD used 24/7, but it's probably MORE than plenty in an EV that can be used for a maximum of 1 hour at a time (unless etischer here is now towing along a generator and/or big battery trailer  )


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Just got back from my test drive. I was actually able to pull 360 motor amps for 3 seconds until the IGBT went into protection! This is probably not good for the IGBTs!

Keeping the current set around 300A I got my 0-60 down to 14 seconds. The car feels much faster to drive. 

60mph = 6800 RPM = 340 on the y axis for the red line.
Battery voltage is pink
Motor current is blue
Battery current was hovering around 260-280 once the motor was in it's constant horsepower range. 











I've got more tuning to do, my current (blue line) dips down around 4400 rpm, then goes back up with speed, it's not supposed to do that =)


Before, 60mph in 2nd gear I could pull 200A
Now, 60mph in 2nd gear I can easily pull 250A!


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## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

etischer said:


> Thanks for the heads up, I never considered thermal cycling on the IGBT to be an issue. I'll give PowerEx a call on monday and ask them what issues I might have running at the 300 amp limit. I'm using the IGBT's alarm output to shut off the inverter, so there is some built in protection. I think I'm more concerned about pulling 3C from the Thunderskys, I've always kept them at 2.6C. ...


You'll probably have to wait until Tuesday 

Sounds like you are using IPMs - IGBT modules with built-in driver, desat and temperature protection circuits - correct?

Are they 300A modules? If that current is specified at a case temp of 75-80C then you could plausibly run them at 300A for short periods.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Yep, I'm using the 300A IPM. 

I have an I^2 T curve programmed into the inverter to prevent overheating the motor. It integrates the current squared over time and begins limiting current if there is too much area under the curve. I think this should offer some protection for the IGBTs too. 

I allow 200A continuous current. If I pull 260A, after about 30 seconds, the current will taper down to 200A. It takes 60 seconds for the current limit to rise back up to 260A. 

Generally the I^2 T limiting doesn't do anything because the motor is in the overload state for just a few seconds. The motor can pull 260A until it hits base speed, then the current drops due to field weakening. I put I^2 T protection in for long hill climbs, since the motor could potentially be at full current for an extended period of time. 

Now that I am running slightly higher current, the I^2 T current limit is kicking in sooner (area under the curve accumulates much faster). I think I'll keep it set as is, since it only kicks in when I'm really abusing the car. 

I was driving the car pretty hard all morning and I took some measurements with an IR gun. The motor was 32C and IGBT was 50C, both are water cooled. The rated case temperature for the IGBT is 100C, and junction temp is 150C. 

I'm using the stock Passat radiator which is designed to cool a V6, so it is way over kill. The true thermal test is my long freeway hill climb, this was the reason I added I^2 T current limiting. 







Tesseract said:


> You'll probably have to wait until Tuesday
> 
> Sounds like you are using IPMs - IGBT modules with built-in driver, desat and temperature protection circuits - correct?
> 
> Are they 300A modules? If that current is specified at a case temp of 75-80C then you could plausibly run them at 300A for short periods.


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

etischer said:


> I have an I^2 T curve programmed into the inverter to prevent overheating the motor. It integrates the current squared over time and begins limiting current if there is too much area under the curve.


Looks like so called "thermal capacity" model I found in GE Motor Management Relays.



etischer said:


> I think this should offer some protection for the IGBTs too.


Not necessary. Power devices have very low thermal capacity. They will blow much earlier than motor. But probably your IPM has thermal sensor, that will shut down the module before it becomes too hot.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

I need a sanity check on my recent difficulties getting the Mini to move. Are the motor current shown in the chart the “sine wave – rms” current in one phase line of your motor or the peak current value? Do you know what the required peak motor phase current is to start slowly moving your car on a flat surface say in first or second gear? 




etischer said:


> Just got back from my test drive. I was actually able to pull 360 motor amps for 3 seconds until the IGBT went into protection! This is probably not good for the IGBTs!
> 
> Keeping the current set around 300A I got my 0-60 down to 14 seconds. The car feels much faster to drive.
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

zaxxon said:


> I need a sanity check on my recent difficulties getting the Mini to move. Are the motor current shown in the chart the “sine wave – rms” current in one phase line of your motor or the peak current value? Do you know what the required peak motor phase current is to start slowly moving your car on a flat surface say in first or second gear?


Hi zax,

I hope Eric won't mind and correct/confirm what I say. These VFDs will output a value of RMS phase current. I assume that is what he has plotted.

The AC phase current to just barely move the car will always be above the magnetizing (or no-load) current. Because of the little blip on that graph, I bet it is about 100-120 amps for Eric's motor/vfd set-up. To get torque from the motor you need a vector sum (or product?) of magnetizing and torque producing current. This will be numerically higher than the mag current. So I guessing, maybe 150 amps AC phase (RMS) current to get it to move. Not to be confused with battery current. Very little battery current would be required, maybe 20 amps. Maybe less.

When you say "peak current", that will be 1.414 times the RMS, right? But that is only there for milliseconds at twice the frequency, + & -.

I assume this is the project you are referring to. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38988 Have you tuned the motor and drive? What mode are you running in? What currents do you read when starting?

Here's hoping Eric will chime in 

major


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

major said:


> Hi zax,
> 
> I assume this is the project you are referring to. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38988 Have you tuned the motor and drive? What mode are you running in? What currents do you read when starting?
> 
> major


Yes that link is the correct “mini” project reference. Not to clutter up Eric’s thread, I can give more details on the other thread. I have tried both V/F and sensorless vector control (as best I can). Both modes seem to have the same common issue. I am just on the edge of working at 400 amps peak to peak phase current (141 amps RMS). The mini will move in first gear, but then bucks and dies when trying to accelerate or when on a small incline when the Prius inverter’s current limit clips the current waveform peaks at 200 amps. I am almost sure low current is the fundamental issue, although I am surprised how much it takes in 1st gear to just move the car on flat ground. I have tried various tuning settings and different phase frequencies. Looks like I need to abandon my hopes to use the Prius Inverter as it is and go on to build a higher current inverter or come up with additinal dollars to buy a real controller.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

63A RMS per phase is my magnetizing current. This equates to about 1.5A at the battery. 

I'm still running encoder less, so the back emf is too small to accurately determine rotor speed at near zero rpm. I think this is what the blip is from. Some day if I ever have the motor out, I'll reinstall the encoder. 




major said:


> Hi zax,
> 
> I hope Eric won't mind and correct/confirm what I say. These VFDs will output a value of RMS phase current. I assume that is what he has plotted.
> 
> ...


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

etischer said:


> 63A RMS per phase is my magnetizing current. This equates to about 1.5A at the battery.


Yeah, I should have looked at the other end of the curve, out past 18 sec when you were coasting


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

I'll have to see what I can do with 141A in my car. That leaves about 80A of torque producing current, I usually have about 200A on tap. 

Are you sure all 6 IGBTs are firing? I was running on 5 IGBTs in the prototype days and didn't realize it. 

Do you see much difference between running V/Hz and Sensorless Vector? 

Your going though exactly the same steps I went though. I was thrilled to be able to climb up the drive way in 1st using V/Hz and a little DC boost. 




zaxxon said:


> I am just on the edge of working at 400 amps peak to peak phase current (141 amps RMS). The mini will move in first gear, but then bucks and dies when trying to accelerate or when on a small incline when the Prius inverter’s current limit clips the current waveform peaks at 200 amps.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Performance limited to 140 Amps is surprisingly still decent. Off the line it is a bit slow. I was going to test top speed at 140 Amps but there was too much traffic. At 75mph I was drawing only 90 Amps.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> I'll have to see what I can do with 141A in my car. That leaves about 80A of torque producing current, I usually have about 200A on tap.
> 
> Are you sure all 6 IGBTs are firing? I was running on 5 IGBTs in the prototype days and didn't realize it.
> 
> ...


I have two current sensors and have looked at two of the three phase currents while running in neutral and with brake on under torque and they did not look bad. I don’t have a portable scope so I can’t watch while driving. 

The Sensorless Vector has more torque at the same current level before I hit the limit. In the V/Hz mode I can crank up the boost and break the wheels loose slamming into the current limit but its very jerky because the waveform is more like a square wave and inverter gets very hot.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> Performance limited to 140 Amps is surprisingly still decent. Off the line it is a bit slow. I was going to test top speed at 140 Amps but there was too much traffic. At 75mph I was drawing only 90 Amps.


Thanks !!! for performing this test. I thought it should work much better than it is at 141 amps. I thought I was getting better performance with the industrial VFD which I think put out less current. Your test tells me I need to keep looking for the root cause and that getting more current will not likely solve my issue. 

I don’t think the motors has been damaged. I have abused the inverter, and maybe somewhere along the line I did take one of the IGBT’s out. The waveform at low frequency does not look sinusoidal. 

I also don’t think the sensorless vector “torque mode” is working correctly. When I crank up the magnetization current loop up to get the car to move, when I run in neutral, it acts like a tightly controlled speed controlled servo motor. Where the throttle is setting speed not torque. I think if I could get the car moving in this mode, I well have high unwanted regen. I don’t think the slip control is programmed for automotive operation.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Do you have a way of seeing what the torque feedback is? Maybe you can plot Torque SP and FB vs time and see what's happening. 

Torque feedback is basically slip speed 
Slip speed = (Commanded speed - actual speed). 
Your throttle is adding a little bit of speed (trim speed) to slip speed. 
Your throttle = Torque demand = Slip speed + trim speed = Torque feedback + trim speed

If your torque feedback is 0
Your throttle = trim speed. 
Your throttle will basically be directly controlling motor speed. Perhaps you need to scale up your torque feedback a bit? 

My throttle is setting torque demand (0 to 100%) and I use my brake pedal to set negative torque demand. Is your throttle setting negative torque demand, (-10 to 100%)?










zaxxon said:


> I also don’t think the sensorless vector “torque mode” is working correctly. When I crank up the magnetization current loop up to get the car to move, when I run in neutral, it acts like a tightly controlled speed controlled servo motor. Where the throttle is setting speed not torque. I think if I could get the car moving in this mode, I well have high unwanted regen. I don’t think the slip control is programmed for automotive operation.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> Do you have a way of seeing what the torque feedback is? Maybe you can plot Torque SP and FB vs time and see what's happening.
> 
> Torque feedback is basically slip speed
> Slip speed = (Commanded speed - actual speed).
> ...


There is a “real time monitor” capability. I have not educated myself on it. Not sure I have all the necessary components to implement or the intelligence to use.

Your slip explanation helped me allot to understand what I see when running torque mode in neutral. Based on it, the software seems to be doing what it is programmed to do.

As best I can, I have biased the throttle input not to set a negative torque. It actually has a slight positive setting at zero throttle. The demo software as I understand it has the input scaled such that in “torque mode”, 1.65 volts is zero commanded torque. Below that value is negative torque.

The demo software has a speed control mode, but it is not setup for independent control. It changes modes and uses the same pot input to command the speed PID that then drives the torque input. I have had so much trouble getting stable “d” and “q” PID loops I have not even tried the outer speed-loop. I thought I would only need this if I wanted cruse like control.

I am still curious based on the behavior I see. Although you saw reasonable performance at 141A RMS. Is it possible that at the point of launch or accelerations at low speeds the current is actually over 200 amps peak for a short time? Based on the behavior I get, if that happens that could still be my fundamental issue. The Prius inverter has its own built-in over current protection which I probably can’t and should not mess with. I am wondering if the Mini is just geared high and requires more current to get it to move.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

My motor current is based on my throttle position (torque demand). I could probably get to 60mph without exceeding 100A, just takes longer to accelerate. I have a fixed 60 Amps of magnetizing current, everything above that generates torque. 

You have a speed loop, torque loop, current loop. Start with the inner most one first, current. You need a PID loop to keep Actual current below Set point current. In my case, my max is 300A, you can see I'm right up at the limit (blue line), in actual daily driving this causes occasional over current faults. 

I would start your tuning process graphing these same parameters: 
Motor Speed, Battery Voltage and Motor current. 

I've made some improvements which stablize the current a bit, I'll have to generate a new graph!















zaxxon said:


> There is a “real time monitor” capability. I have not educated myself on it. Not sure I have all the necessary components to implement or the intelligence to use.
> 
> Your slip explanation helped me allot to understand what I see when running torque mode in neutral. Based on it, the software seems to be doing what it is programmed to do.
> 
> ...


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> You have a speed loop, torque loop, current loop. Start with the inner most one first, current. You need a PID loop to keep Actual current below Set point current. In my case, my max is 300A, you can see I'm right up at the limit (blue line), in actual daily driving this causes occasional over current faults.


That is the issue I am fighting, when I set the PID loop gain, where I am just under the 200 amp peak trip point, the car just kind of sits there torqued up but not enough to get it to start moving when there is a slight incline. My motor and controller combination does not not seem to produce torque as well as yours.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Ahh I see the problem. It shouldn't be cooking at 200A at zero speed. Try setting current to 60A, the magnetizing current. 

Like in V/Hz mode, the more speed you demand and the more torque you load the motor with, will cause motor current to increase. The current should be allowed to climb up to 200A if needed, but keep a minimum of 60A magnetizing current. 

My inverter does a lot of this work for me. It displays the torque producing component and magnetizing component of motor current. These vectors are 90 degrees apart, the hypotenuse is "motor current". A motor thats running with no torque applied (shaft decoupled from load) has no "torque producing current" so motor current = magnetizing current. Magnetizing current is filled in for me as part of the auto tune feature, it is usually around 30% of full load amps.

Here is some googled info from http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1062
_
An induction motor is very similar to a DC motor. It needs a magnetizing current and a torque producing current. In a DC motor, these two currents are fed to two different windings; the field winding and the armature winding. In an induction motor, there is only one set of windings: the stator winding. So the vector drive has to separate the two components some other way.

It does this by keeping in mind that magnetizing current always lags (inductive) the voltage by 90 degrees and that the torque producing current is always in phase with the voltage. It controls the magnetizing current (usually named Id) in one control loop and the torque producing current (Iq) in another control loop. The two vectors Id and Iq, which are always 90 degrees apart, are then added (vector sum) and sent to the modulator, which turns the vector information into a rotating PWM modulated three-phase system with the correct frequency and voltage.

_






zaxxon said:


> That is the issue I am fighting, when I set the PID loop gain, where I am just under the 200 amp peak trip point, the car just kind of sits there torqued up but not enough to get it to start moving when there is a slight incline. My motor and controller combination does not not seem to produce torque as well as yours.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> Ahh I see the problem. It shouldn't be cooking at 200A at zero speed. Try setting current to 60A, the magnetizing current.


I have adjusted the Id and Iq loops, and have set the magnetization currents at different level and have tried changing the rotor and stator inductances and resistances used in the motor model phase angle calculations in attempts to get better performance. That’s why I needed a sanity check. Based on your data it should be working much better, and seems I have a fundamental hardware issue or microcode software application issue. Thanks for taking your time to help. I will keep plugging away at it.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Here is a plot of:
Id (red) multiplied by 5 to fit on the chart. 
Ip (blue) multiplied by 5 to fit on the chart
rpm (lt. blue) Divided by 10 to fit on the chart. 
X axis is time (100 seconds)










At 8 seconds I accelerate from 6 mph to 42 mph, roughly 75% throttle.
At 20 seconds I'm coasting, you can see motor rpm (lt. blue) drop as I coast
At 32 seconds I give it just enough throttle to maintain speed (35mph)

Looking at the 15 second mark:
Id (red line) on the graph reads 175. Since the scale is 5x, this is really 35% of rated motor current. Id = 66.64 Amps
Ip (blue line) on the graph reads 500, which is 100% current. Ip = 190 Amps. (I allow up to 150% current, 285A)
Motor RPM = 3000 which is 26.55 mph. 

At 46 seconds I accelerate from a stop, make a turn then floor it at 55 seconds. 









zaxxon said:


> I have adjusted the Id and Iq loops, and have set the magnetization currents at different level and have tried changing the rotor and stator inductances and resistances used in the motor model phase angle calculations in attempts to get better performance. That’s why I needed a sanity check. Based on your data it should be working much better, and seems I have a fundamental hardware issue or microcode software application issue. Thanks for taking your time to help. I will keep plugging away at it.


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## zaxxon (Jul 11, 2009)

etischer said:


> Here is a plot of:
> Id (red) multiplied by 5 to fit on the chart.
> Ip (blue) multiplied by 5 to fit on the chart
> rpm (lt. blue) Divided by 10 to fit on the chart.
> X axis is time (100 seconds)


Nice plots, they tell it all. I see something similar, but don't have a way to see one current from the other. When I give some throttle, the phase current I look at jumps up to a steady current level and then climbs from there with increases in throttle. Seem in my case either the torque current left is too little to move the car or the torque current angle is not being controlled correctly.


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Here are pics of the encoder kit I'm putting together. 




























The encoder mount slides into the bearing journal of the rear cover.










The kit consists of an expanding coupling which is inserted into the hollow shaft of the motor. 





















A signal conditioner converts the encoders single ended output to differential outputs for long cable runs.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Nice. Are there that many of these motors still available to make this worthwhile?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Nice. Are there that many of these motors still available to make this worthwhile?


Probably not, I wasn't actually planning on building more than one. But anyone trying to make a closed loop inverter for this motor will be somewhat limited by the built in 64 ppr encoder. Zaxxon might be able to use this on the inverter he is building.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Looks intriguing. This improves resolution from 64ppr to ?

What primary benefit do you have from increased encoder resolution?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

The encoder card for the VFD I'm using needs 250 lines minimum, so the 64 line encoder that comes built into the motor simply doesn't work. I believe Zaxxon is running into the same problem with his hardware. 



steven4601 said:


> Looks intriguing. This improves resolution from 64ppr to ?
> 
> What primary benefit do you have from increased encoder resolution?


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

etischer said:


> The encoder card for the VFD I'm using needs 250 lines minimum, so the 64 line encoder that comes built into the motor simply doesn't work. I believe Zaxxon is running into the same problem with his hardware.


How many rings on that disc? Grey code?


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

coulombKid said:


> How many rings on that disc? Grey code?


The disc just has radial lines, standard for an encoder


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## yarross (Jan 7, 2009)

coulombKid said:


> How many rings on that disc? Grey code?


It's not an absolute encoder, it's a quadrature one I guess. No need for absolute encoders for induction motor control.


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Hello all. 

Eric, has the 300A rating on your IPM been a limiting factor at any point? Would you do a 450 or 600A if you had to do it again? At 90kW I wouldn't think so but had to ask.

On the VFD side, did you have to cook the firmware or make backdoor changes to make it work with the IPM? Did you retain the auto-tune function?

JR


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

When first starting out, having a 300 amp built in shut off is a pretty nice to have safety feature =) If I were to build a second inverter, I'd probably go slightly larger, I'm pushing right against that 300 amp limit at 90kw. 

The programming is certainly where the majority of the time went. To this day I'm still making minor tweeks. Now that I have the tuning parameters dialed in, I can successfully complete an auto-tune. I was driving the car for about a year before getting auto tune to work, I basically mapped everything out manually. I did make a few "backdoor" changes. 



JRoque said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Eric, has the 300A rating on your IPM been a limiting factor at any point? Would you do a 450 or 600A if you had to do it again? At 90kW I wouldn't think so but had to ask.
> 
> ...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

etischer said:


> I did make a few "backdoor" changes.


Hello Eric, forgive my prying but I'm trying to determine if modifying my (Hitachi) VFD for this purpose is viable for me. Were any of those backdoor changes pivotal in making your setup work or were they tweaks and trims to make it work better? I am limited to entering parameters in the front panel of my drive.

Thanks for the insight on the current limit. I would definitely go for the higher current module though I didn't see a driver from Powerex for their higher powered modules - maybe I missed it. I think you used the original module driver in your VFD, correct?

For others: 90kW is more power than a 2.0L VW got from the original ICE so it's certainly nothing to sneeze at.

JR


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Getting into the higher rpm range (field weakening) was the major hurdle for me. This is where the auto tune routine was aborting. Most of the auto tune results and motor mapping was hidden on my inverter, it might not be the case with Hitachi. For warranty purposes, they probably don't allow users to access those parameters. 

The gate drivers are built into the IPM, the isolation circuits I'm using are on the VFD board. 




JRoque said:


> Hello Eric, forgive my prying but I'm trying to determine if modifying my (Hitachi) VFD for this purpose is viable for me. Were any of those backdoor changes pivotal in making your setup work or were they tweaks and trims to make it work better? I am limited to entering parameters in the front panel of my drive.
> 
> Thanks for the insight on the current limit. I would definitely go for the higher current module though I didn't see a driver from Powerex for their higher powered modules - maybe I missed it. I think you used the original module driver in your VFD, correct?
> 
> ...


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## JRoque (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks, Eric. 

Just browsed your website looking for details on your controller and saw you now work for Tesla. If there were ever a dream job, that would be it for most of us here. If I lived in CA, I'd be happy sweeping the floors at Tesla, let alone working on some engineering capacity. Congratulations!

JR


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## etischer (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks, it's a great company to work for. I certainly consider it my dream job, you guys would really amazed by the work that is going on!



JRoque said:


> Thanks, Eric.
> 
> Just browsed your website looking for details on your controller and saw you now work for Tesla. If there were ever a dream job, that would be it for most of us here. If I lived in CA, I'd be happy sweeping the floors at Tesla, let alone working on some engineering capacity. Congratulations!
> 
> JR


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## coulombKid (Jan 10, 2009)

etischer said:


> Thanks, it's a great company to work for. I certainly consider it my dream job, you guys would really amazed by the work that is going on!


Far cheaper to hire you then let potential competition snap you up. Now if I asked you the question I have you would not be allowed to answer. They should have given you one to drive and kept/crushed your baby. That's what GM would have done.


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