# The REAL price of AC Propulsion's AC-150



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

OK, they don't want to sell the system to the general public. No problem, there are some others:


http://www.uqm.com/pdfs/PowerPhase150 (2.4.09).pdf 

The UQM system has more torque and the same peak power. I will contact them next week to ask for the price and the delivery time of the system


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

Wirecutter said:


> an EV conversion shop, a research institution, or an automobile production line, and those are the only entities ACP says it will sell to. I just wish something would convince ACP to resume selling AC-150s in this way. -Mark


Hi Mark,

I feel your pain. But realize ACPropulsion is in business to make money, not friends. They obviously feel they cannot support the required application engineering and handholding required to sell their product to hobbyists. If they were to sell like that, without support, a lot of the product would fail and there would be "bad feelings" to say the least. I have seen a failed ACP controller or two. And a motor. Not a pretty sight. You have to know what you're doing or you end up with a very expensive charred mess.

For these high power electronic devices, the company has to make them either idiot proof or bullet proof, or both. And that just drives the price higher. Like Otmar and the Zilla. ACP has an excellent product. And I don't blame them for doing business like they choose. I am a bit surprised they have been in business as long as they have. I think I first saw one back in 1994. I know there have been a few lean years since then. 

Regards,

major


----------



## Wirecutter (Jul 26, 2007)

Major -
Yeah, that's the rub, isn't it? I've actually worked in technical support, and some of _those_ jobs are a lot less enviable than others. Where I was, we had a fairly savvy user base, but we still got some real bone heads. Oh, and our product probably wouldn't kill anyone unless if fell on them or they licked the high voltage inside the switching power supply.

If I could plead my case with ACP, I'd try to convince them that I know what I'm doing and I won't kill myself or do something similarly stupid. I just wish there were a way...

-Mark


----------



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> OK, they don't want to sell the system to the general public. No problem, there are some others:
> 
> 
> http://www.uqm.com/pdfs/PowerPhase150%20(2.4.09).pdf
> ...


Be interesting to see if these are available and the pricing.
Just at quick glance I noticed that is different is the RPM limit is 5k instead of the ADC 13k. Additionally this setup is water cooled and I believe the ADC is just air cooled. Either way this is still a very nice setup.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

bblocher said:


> Be interesting to see if these are available and the pricing.
> Just at quick glance I noticed that is different is the RPM limit is 5k instead of the ADC 13k. Additionally this setup is water cooled and I believe the ADC is just air cooled. Either way this is still a very nice setup.


UQM says:

"[FONT=&quot] We appreciate your interest in UQM. I’ve attached the spec sheet for our PowerPhase 150 system for your reference. The single system price is $34,700 and lead time is approximately 8 weeks from the time an order is received. Please note that unfortunately we don’t supply to consumers, we work exclusively with OEM’s."


[/FONT]


----------



## bblocher (Jul 30, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> UQM says:
> 
> "[FONT=&quot] We appreciate your interest in UQM. I’ve attached the spec sheet for our PowerPhase 150 system for your reference. The single system price is $34,700 and lead time is approximately 8 weeks from the time an order is received. Please note that unfortunately we don’t supply to consumers, we work exclusively with OEM’s."
> 
> ...


Very sad. More money and still OEM only.


----------



## dreamer (Feb 28, 2009)

If we believed the specs on the HPGC AC motors being sold by Thunderstuck and others, the 6.7" motor can run at 96 volts and 550A with the Curtis 1238 AC controller. The package is $3200.

So ... could you mount three of them together in a triangle configuration to a plate turning a common gear in the center ? You would end up with a package about the same profile as the ACP 150 motor -- about 15" diameter and 12" long. There must be a way to keep the three controllers' timing in sync, right, especially since the three motors would be locked together by the gear case ? A total package price of $10K for 150kw maximum power and 300ft-lbs max torque, just like the ACP 150. Depending on the gear ratios between the motor shafts and the central output shaft, you could even match the higher RPM of the ACP 150, if 7500 wasn't enough for some reason.

You would not get the free charger that the ACP 150 system includes, but otherwise the specs seem close.


----------



## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

dreamer said:


> So ... could you mount three of them together in a triangle configuration to a plate turning a common gear in the center ? You would end up with a package about the same profile as the ACP 150 motor -- about 15" diameter and 12" long. There must be a way to keep the three controllers' timing in sync, right, especially since the three motors would be locked together by the gear case ? A total package price of $10K for 150kw maximum power and 300ft-lbs max torque, just like the ACP 150. Depending on the gear ratios between the motor shafts and the central output shaft, you could even match the higher RPM of the ACP 150, if 7500 wasn't enough for some reason.


Sounds like a kind of strange rudimentary planetary gear system. So you could drive a center gear, or an outer gear, or both if you wanted a twin-drive system (With no slip).

Locking the motors would work well, but you would have to ensure they are also synched pole-to-pole, otherwise your controller will be making wrong assumptions about one (or more) of the motors, and may drive one backwards, or stall it, which would most likely shred your nicely constructed gearbox.

Of course, if the motors are synched pole-to-pole, and geared to turn simultaneously, you could treat them as one big motor, and connect the poles in parallel from one large AC controller. At least, I think you could...


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Face it, they are not really interested in the little guy... they don't want the little guy. Because the little guy doesn't have the resources behind him to buy 100 units or 10 units!... Greed. It is just flat out greed and I don't care how you cut it. When the world needs a better mousetrap, we are up to our necks in RATS.


----------



## CNCRouterman (May 5, 2008)

No, Fudgabug, it is not a simple case of greed. Selling products to the public is an entirely different animal than selling products to another business, particularly in the relational sense that ACP would be to an OEM such as GM, Ford, or even Tesla.

One major difference is that when ACP sells to one of the above, the product liability insurance underwriter will access the risk as very low. Sell the same physical unit to Joe EV and the risk goes through roof, and so does the premium. Product liability insurance is a real concern for a business. My insurance agent advised me to totally avoid certain industries, and a list of specific consumer products in order to keep my coverage affordable. We are talking about an order of magnitude difference in premiums for me to start making parts for jet ski's compared to NOT making parts for them. This is all the more impressive when you consider that I do not make finished products (as a rule) but rather I make components for other companies to use in making a final product. I could, under my current coverage, make parts for a company that manufactures jet ski's, but I wouldn't make them for a consumer directly. The manufacturer, or OEM, already has an engineering staff, product liability insurance, testing facilities, QC inspections, etc., not to mention direct experience building the final product. 

Another significant difference is the cost to sell the product. There can be considerable expense associated with each sale, regardless of number of units, more units means that fixed cost is amortized over the total sale, so cost per unit becomes less significant. Selling ONE unit to an off-the-street customer may also breach the companies sales policy, which may be mildly important to the OEM purchasers, or it may be a deal breaker. I have had customers who were quite willing to do business with me on the condition that I would not, ever, provide that particular service (component class) to the general public, as it represents unfair competition.

Think about it, if you manufacture a product with a high overhead burden, and your best customer base is other companies, companies who have to invest a LOT of money over an above buying your product, and who will provide you with steady work, do you really want to antagonize them by selling your product to a much smaller market, which happens to be a part of their potential customer base?

Although I do agree with your closing comment about Rats, I suspect we may place different emphasis on the qualifications for rodent-hood.

Have a Great Day!


----------



## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Hmmm... but you see, it is a question in my mind that just bugs the livin' day-lights out of me... What is in the box that cost 25,000 simoleans... So they are engineers, and wise at their craft of coming up with an AC control unit that 'does it all' AND WORKS... And they have lawyers and accountants and business interests... But 'what's in the box???'... What is it about the contents that make it that expensive?
And if I found out a similar scheme... would it cost me 25K to build it? That is the bugger~


----------



## CNCRouterman (May 5, 2008)

Good questions Fugdabug. It had better not cost $25grand, or somebodies business model is whacked. That said, it would make sense to price the product such that it is cheaper to buy it from the manufacturer than for the customer to build it them selves. That can be tough, as a significant portion of the cost MIGHT be labor, not to mention the R&D that went into figuring it out in the first place. The labor aspect is harder to price because different people place different values on their time. You may figure your time is worth zero dollars per hour, for purposes of building one for your self, so then it just comes down to hardware, and any specialized services you might outsource to someone else (welding, chrome plating, circuit board populating, whatever). Presumably, ACP has developed good purchasing power for thier needed compononent, and likely there are numerous proprietary tidbits that are not buyable off the shelf.

I would hazard the guess that it would indeed cost an easy $25,000 to replicate, using real world salary figures, and short order parts pricing. However, that does not preclude you, or one of the many sharp contributers to this discussion board from being able to shoe string budget a functional replica using low cost or free (salvaged) components, given enough time.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

As I understand it volume purchases to OEM's get the price to around $11K for the ACP setup, which is quite reasonable for all you get, motor, controller, DC/DC converter, and charger. If ACP can make a profit selling at $11K they are obviously making it for much less than that. The $25K price tag was probably what they were asking to A. discourage the general public and B. make it worth their time if they did sell to an individual and had to provide support. Since they are now refusing to sell to individuals at all I guess they felt the extra $14K markup was not worth it, and if they are getting all the business they can handle right now from OEM's I can't really blame them, though I wish it were not so. The only way I can see that changing is maybe some competent middle man dealer who is willing to handle warranty and support issues makes a volume purchase from ACP. I can see purchasing at $11K and selling at $14-$16K as being worthwhile for someone, maybe.


----------



## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> As I understand it volume purchases to OEM's get the price to around $11K for the ACP setup, which is quite reasonable for all you get, motor, controller, DC/DC converter, and charger. If ACP can make a profit selling at $11K they are obviously making it for much less than that. The $25K price tag was probably what they were asking to A. discourage the general public and B. make it worth their time if they did sell to and individual and had to provide support. Since they are now refusing to sell to individuals at all I guess they felt the extra $14K markup was not worth it, and if they are getting all the business they can handle right now from OEM's I can't really blame them, though I wish it were not so. The only way I can see that changing is maybe some competent middle man dealer who is willing to handle warranty and support issues makes a volume purchase from ACP. I can see purchasing at $11K and selling at $14-$16K as being worthwhile for someone, maybe.


If ACP would offer me a price of $110K for 10 systems I would buy them right now.


----------



## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think the $11K price was for 100 or more.


----------



## firefox (Mar 29, 2009)

Will these Companys not sell to the genaral public, or do they sell only to those that are backed by a large firm and or govermant funded organization ? Only ask because I have heard this to be true if you do not order more than 1.


----------



## IamIan (Mar 29, 2009)

A possible ... although difficult alternative... if your heart is set on one...

Go to and talk to one or several of the small EV conversion companies... they would be an OEM... then if you can also organize a group buy , like is sometimes done for some of the Li Batteries... if you could pull off both... you would be able to get the units this alternate way... from the smaller EV conversion OEM companies.

Unfortunately ... it is a extremely time consuming route ... and often extremely difficult to organize separate groups and individuals like that... but if you have your heart set on one... and don't mind throwing tons and tons of your own personal time into the task... you might get lucky.

-----------

The only other option I can think of is... become very good friends with a vehicle engineering university professor ... and talk him into doing some PHD like work on a unit... they are much more likely to give it up to them... heck ... GM even let some universities like that keep EV1s... then after the project is done... you can negotiate with your PHD buddy to take the used unit off his hands for a 'reasonable' price.

------------

slim odds though ... no matter how you slice it.


----------



## speculawyer (Feb 10, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> As I understand it volume purchases to OEM's get the price to around $11K for the ACP setup, which is quite reasonable for all you get, motor, controller, DC/DC converter, and charger. If ACP can make a profit selling at $11K they are obviously making it for much less than that.


Even $11K is pretty high. Considering that the most expensive part tends to be the battery pack, you'll be starting a car project at $20K just for the drivetrain and battery pack. That is the price before you actually have a car body/chassis, wheels, breaks, etc. You can buy brand new gas cars for less than that. 

This is still such an expensive industry. But if Li-Ions can get down to ~$300/Kwh (or these lead-carbon batteries start shipping) and gas prices go back up (they are starting to hit around $2.50/gallon where I live so they are going up again and that is despite a crap economy), I think EVs will become price competitive to gas cars. 

With Li-Ions down below $500/Kwh (at least Thundersky LiFePO4s), the EV industry is getting pretty close . . . but not quite there. But if someone were to really start mass manufacturing, I think they'd hit the break-even point relatively quick. Damn it, I hope Th!nk gets funding and cranks out 5000 cars or so in a year, that could break the log jam.

*If ACP wants to really be part of the new EV industry, they are gonna have to mass produce and reduce their prices. ACP makes great stuff . . . However, the industry is never going to go mainstream with a $109K two-seater sports car (Tesla licenses ACP technology), A $15K gas car converted into a $70K EV (ACP's eBox), and electric two-seater Mini-Coopers that lease for $850/month (ACP provides drive train technology for the E-Mini). I want ACP technology to become available to more people, but if they are going to remain such an expensive technology, it will be GM, Aptera, and Th!nk that bring the EV business to the mainstream.*


----------



## Grant_NZ (May 28, 2008)

[/rant]

Recently and briefly, my heart soared while reading a quote from AC Propulsion's web page detailing how one buys an AC-150 and takes delivery. Unfortunately, the quote was from a cached Google search. See this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/tesla-powertrain-v1-5-25238.html

I just wish something would convince ACP to resume selling AC-150s in this way. I alternately feel like either pleading or bitching about ACP's current refusal to sell to folks like us. Sorry if you've heard it before.

-Mark[/quote]



CroDriver said:


> UQM says:
> 
> "[FONT=&quot] We appreciate your interest in UQM. I’ve attached the spec sheet for our PowerPhase 150 system for your reference. The single system price is $34,700 and lead time is approximately 8 weeks from the time an order is received. Please note that unfortunately we don’t supply to consumers, we work exclusively with OEM’s."
> 
> ...


Interesting... 

so are these the only two suppliers?


----------



## eodguy (Aug 9, 2015)

Old thread I know, but had anyone tried asking who these companies distribute to?
For instance if they sell to GM for less per unit could you purchase a unit from GM? Like buying an oem replacement part.


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

eodguy said:


> Old thread I know, but had anyone tried asking who these companies distribute to?
> For instance if they sell to GM for less per unit could you purchase a unit from GM? Like buying an oem replacement part.


You got here about a week late I think and missed this. He may still have some. Sounds like a good opportunity to me.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/sale-40-usedac-150-drive-systems-161697.html


----------



## Hollie Maea (Dec 9, 2009)

It's fun to read through this thread and see what in retrospect are the early beginnings of Rimac Automobili.

UQM should have sold him some motors...


----------



## Kaplah (Jul 21, 2017)

Oof... I was just looking up specs on this old motor because I found one on Ebay for under $500...


----------

