# Brad's Del Sol Build



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

The car came with an automatic transmission. I picked up a manual transmission off of ebay for $150.

A web search turned up the dimensions of the holes in a Honda transmission. As it turns out, the data posted was not very accurate. I made one plate, measured the error and corrected it when I made the second plate. I then made a plate to attach a Warp 9 motor.

I decided to go clutchless. I made a hub that holds the original clutch spline and springs.

The Warp 9 motor has a hole bored in the end of the shaft, so I made a bronze bushing that fits in this hole and captures the end of the transmission shaft.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

When you replace an automatic Honda transmission with a manual one, you have to use a custom mount. They sell them on Ebay, but I chose to build an adapter.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

To get the power from the trunk to the front of the car, I chose to run the wires through PVC pipe. The two main wires fit easily into 1 1/4" pipe. I ran an extra 10 gage wire for charging since the charger will be in the trunk and I wouldn't otherwise have access to both ends of the battery pack in the trunk.

I cut a hole in the front of the trunk and ran the pipe underneath the car and held it in place with large tie-wraps.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I have the batteries all mounted. I thought I had taken photos of the mounts before I put them in, but I guess I didn't.

I worked on my electrical panel today. I have most of the 144V wires hooked up now, but I don't have photos yet.


----------



## Zemmo (Sep 13, 2007)

Wow! Such great progress! Nice clean installation. What controller are you going to go with?


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

BradQuick said:


> I worked on my electrical panel today. I have most of the 144V wires hooked up now, but I don't have photos yet.


Hey Brad,

Looks like you have the motor wired for CWDE rotation. Did you get it special for this?



> Advanced timing (for counter-clockwise rotation when viewed from the transmission, CCWDE)
> Contact us if your motor rotates clockwise when viewed from the transmission (e.g. for some Honda vehicles)


From a seller's web site.

Regards,

major


----------



## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

Very nice, Brad.


----------



## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

Nice stuff!

The posts between the motor plate and tranny plate will see alot of side-to-side rocking forces -- how did you decide how big they needed to be? I'm no materials strength engineer, just curious and hoping to learn.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I love the Del Sol.. a great little car from Honda. What are your expectations from this car? Speed - range?? 144volts in that little car should get you as fast as you'll ever want to go; I'd more interested in the overall range once it's completed and the batts are fully broken in.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Thanks for the comments, guys.

You can change the timing of the motor for clockwise rotation. It's simple to do. You take out the four bolts holding the brush end on, rotate it to the CW position and put the bolts back in. They have tapped holes in positions for CW, CCW, and neutral timing.

Yes, the standoffs will see some torque. I have a pocket machined into each plate and I faced the ends of the standoffs with a lathe, so they should all sit flat. I'm hoping they can handle the torque.

I'm going to be using a Kelly 650 amp controller. I have a kelly in my electric motorcycle and it's working well for me.

I'm hoping to get a 30 mile range. I base this on what I have read of similar setups online.

I hoped to get more done today, but I'm sitting in jury duty. At least they have wi-fi.  I've spent my time designing my pot box. When I get out, I'll go to the shop (where I work) and make some parts.

- Brad


----------



## major (Apr 4, 2008)

BradQuick said:


> You can change the timing of the motor for clockwise rotation. It's simple to do. You take out the four bolts holding the brush end on, rotate it to the CW position and put the bolts back in. They have tapped holes in positions for CW, CCW, and neutral timing.


Cool, I didn't know that they provided all the holes.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

This is yesterday's work. I built my electrical panel and started installing the main power cables.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Here's today's progress. I built a pot box. It looks like this controller will only take a 0-5V signal. I dug through an old bag of potentiometers my dad had saved and found one that I think will work. I'm going to power it with my 13.8v dc-dc converter and since I'm only rotating it 90 degrees or so, I should be able to get close to 0-5V out of it.

You can see the power steering reservoir in the photo. I removed the power steering pump and routed both hoses to the reservoir.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

Woah, wait on the pot box. The 0-5 volt comes from the Kelly controller, NOT an external power supply. You will blow up the Kelly if you try your idea. I have a Kelly controller, and a 0-5v Pot means that the pot is connect to +5 at the one end, Signal in the middle and GND on the bottom, and all that is attached to the Kelly control connector.

What ever POT you use, you need the full swing, or it's useless.


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

You have done a really tidy conversion with the Del Sol!

Have you decided on batteries yet?


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Yes, the Kelly will supply a 5V signal for convenience, but why can't I generate my own 5V signal, as long as they share a common ground?


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Yes, the batteries are twelve Trojan T-1275's.


----------



## fritzgutten (Jul 4, 2009)

BradQuick said:


> Yes, the Kelly will supply a 5V signal for convenience, but why can't I generate my own 5V signal, as long as they share a common ground?


what would be the benefit of doing something like this?


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

BradQuick said:


> Yes, the Kelly will supply a 5V signal for convenience, but why can't I generate my own 5V signal, as long as they share a common ground?


The Kelly is probably the most fragile controller out there, and it relies on it's own +5 for software calibration for the throttle, and it's regulated.

The controller is one thing that you NEVER want to deviate from the wiring schematics, because what if you accidently exceed the 5v? Boom de Ada on the proccessor, then you go rocketing off down the road with no control what so ever.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Yes, I can see that the risk would be putting over 5V into the 0-5V input. Other than that, I don't see why it wouldn't work, but I'll see if I can find an alternative method. 

I was going to do it this way because I didn't have any pots that go full range with only 90 degrees of rotation. Maybe I can modify a pot. I'll have to take one apart.


----------



## kek_63 (Apr 20, 2008)

Search through the threads here - there is one guy who built a really cool gear-set driven potbox (his reason was for a very smooth ramped start). He built it with parts from Radio Shack and stuff he had lying around.

I believe he converted a Saturn, but I'll let you look. (Who knows what neat scraps of knowledge you'll uncover)

Keith


----------



## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

Another idea for DIY potbox is to take any TPS ( Throttle Position Sensor ) from any modern car at the junk yard. Modern TPS is a 5K pot, perfect fit for our purpose, all you need to do is mechanically connect to it. It helps if you get entire throttle body assembly from the junk yard and adapt your throttle cable to it.

Nice build, I always liked Del Sol, pity you stuffed it with Lead, but I'm sure it will live to see Lithium one day


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Yeah, it's lead today. Eventually, it will be an EEStor ultracapacitor! 

I got some wiring done this evening. I finally completed the battery loop without getting bit. I hooked up the charger and am charging the batteries for the first time. I'm not so sure I like the sound of the post by Quickcharger that says this charger won't charge my batteries fully.

I wired up the DC-DC converter and hooked it into the existing 12V circuit. Interior lights, key in the ignition chime, headlights all work.

Now I have to start studying some wiring diagrams to see where I should pull +12V out of the system when the key is turned on.

Oh yeah, I filled the transmission with oil and put the front tires back on.

- Brad


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I've got it wired and the wheels spin! I'll put the wheels down on the ground tomorrow evening.

I wired the pot using Kelly's 5V output. I only get 0-2.5V output since I'm not turning the pot all that far, but I can program the Kelly to only operate in that range.

The Kelly wiring diagram shows the Kelly pulling one side of the main contactor coil to ground. I couldn't get this to work, so right now the contactor pulls in as soon as the ignition switch is activated. Does anybody have any tricks to getting this to work as Kelly shows?

I had my Quickcharger plugged in for most of the day. I checked the battery voltages when it said it was 88% done and they ranged from 14.3 to 15.6! I could hear some bubbling going on in the batteries. I thought the voltage was a little high, so I unplugged the charger. Should I just let it go and balance? Do I need to separately charge each battery first?

Thanks for the help.

- Brad


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

two words: 

Pictures

Video


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I made a few laps around my neighborhood. It's about a mile each lap.

I used 2nd and 3rd gear. Shifting wasn't bad without a clutch. If I started too quickly in second gear, I got a shutter from the motor/transmission. My motor mounts may need some work. It created a bucking action, kind of like when you're learning to drive with a clutch and let it out too quickly with the engine running too slowly. Once I got moving, it was fine and if I started off slowly, it was fine.

I don't have my vacuum pump hooked up yet, so I had to push pretty hard to slow it down.

I takes a little effort to steer it when going slowly without the power steering. It's manageable, though. It does feel a lot heavier than it did. The rear end is sagging pretty good. I'll probably have to get stiffer springs for the rear.

My voltage was dropping lower than I was expecting. I could get it down below 120 volts pretty easily under load. It wasn't fully charged when I started, but it should have been close.

Acceleration was pretty good. It was about what I would normally do in a car. I'm not sure I'm getting full acceleration because my pot isn't putting out full voltage. I got it up to 40 to 45 mph. I don't have my speedometer working yet.

The aluminum bars that I have linking the batteries got pretty hot. One of them didn't get as hot as the others, which I can't really explain. It may be that that one bar is getting a better connection to the batteries. The copper bars I made out of 3/4" water pipe didn't get hot, so I'll probably replace the aluminum ones with copper.

I'll see if I can get some video tomorrow.

- Brad


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

If you watch the first test drive video on my website you'll see that I had the exact same problem in 2nd gear with my car. I still don't know 100% why, but I had to remove the motor (1st one burned up) and replace it after about 1,000 miles, and when I did that, the shudderring went away entirely. Now, no matter how much juice I give it in second gear, it's smooth. I had to incorporate a mount for the passenger 1/2 shaft into my motor mount during the build. I suspect that I either had this slightly misaligned or didn't have the motor mount tightened properly. Either way, when I removed mount and motor and reinstalled, it worked fine and has since... I would recommend you make sure everything it lined up properly and tightened well. Hopefully, it will make it go away like mine did.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I watched your video and your shutter is similar to mine, although yours may be a little worse. You say it went away when you changed the motor. Are you pretty sure it was a mechanical problem and not a problem with the motor (brushes?) itself? Did you change anything else when you put in the new motor?

I'm not liking the fact that your first motor burned up.

Did you leave the clutch springs in the system?

Thanks for the input.

- Brad


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

I installed the motor mount slightly differently the second time. I attached it firmly to motor and tranny, then attached 1/2 shaft and did the tightening of the motor mount bolts last (and probably made them much tighter than the first time around) to the car's original motor mount with the rubber bushings. I did not make any changes to the layout or setup from the first time around - just the way I tightened things, which seemed to make the 1/2 shaft align better.

I am convinced I was just sent a bad motor to begin with as the second one has been much smoother, quieter and more powerful from the moment I first drove it. ADC replaced the original free under warranty and I know of at least one other DIYer who had a similar blowup and was replaced for free, so maybe they just had a bad batch. I believe (though don't know) the brushes weren't seated properly on the first motor.

I am convinced the shuddering was caused by the slight misalignment and not the motor because it ONLY happened in 2nd gear. The entire time I had the original motor I used first to start off.. now I can use 2nd if I like, but I still tend to use 1st as it accelerates faster from a standstill when using 1st.

Oh.. I had a one-piece solid coupler made that connects motor shaft to tranny shaft, no springs or clutch.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

here's a good pic of the motor/halfshaft mount I made.

sorry.. I just thought of one small change I made second time around! You can't really see it on that pic, but there are actually three boltholes for the original motor mount to my fabricated one. I was only using the larger two the first time around. When I installed the new motor, I drilled out for the other one and began using all three. So it may well be that by using the third bolt hole, I made the entire mounting area more rigid.


----------



## rctous (Jun 18, 2008)

kek_63 said:


> Search through the threads here - there is one guy who built a really cool gear-set driven potbox (his reason was for a very smooth ramped start). He built it with parts from Radio Shack and stuff he had lying around.
> 
> I believe he converted a Saturn, but I'll let you look. (Who knows what neat scraps of knowledge you'll uncover)
> 
> Keith


here are ome of the pics of the pot box http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...-ev-conversion-2-saturn-project-26520p46.html

here is the second one I did
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...s-ev-conversion-3-another-saturn-29343p7.html


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I had that same idea about the geared pot box, but I decided that the simpler it is, the less likely it is for something to go wrong.

I haven't posted much because I've been busy over the weekend building a custom dirt bike for my son. For those of you interested in dirt bikes, we're putting an XR100 motor in a CR80 frame.

Anyway, I did get some things done. First, I got the speedometer working. It was just a matter of connecting the wires from the Vehicle Speed Sensor to the proper wires in the wiring harness. The first time I tried, I got it connected to the wrong wire and the check engine light would blink on and off faster as I drove faster. I eventually found the same color wire on the other side of the car.

Since I changed it from an automatic to a manual transmission, I had to rewire the backup lights. I found a page on the web that explained how to do it. It also showed how to wire it so you can get the key out without putting the car in park. I decided the safest thing to do would be to require that the parking brake be on before you can take the key out. Both required pulling a signal to ground, so I hooked the two together. The circuit that drives the brake light on the dash was enough to pull the circuit that allows you to pull the key out low enough that you could always pull the key out. I solved this by installing a diode in the circuit. 

The photos below show the wires in the console that do all of this. The second photo shows the diode installed on the parking brake.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I also worked on my vacuum system. I got a bunch of fittings from Ace Hardware and piped up the system. It works great, but the vacuum switch I got from MSC Industrial is no good. It only trips properly about half the time. The other half of the time, the vacuum pump runs until I bang the switch. It happens no matter what I have the switch set to. In the photo below, you can see the PVC reservoir.

I haven't tiewrapped up the wires yet. I did replace my aluminum conductors that were heating up with flattened 3/4" copper pipe. I used two thicknesses of pipe.

I also modified one of my transmission mounts to make it more solid. I cut out most of the rubber and made an aluminum insert. It has reduced the clunking, but I can still get some jerking under some circumstances. I think it has to do with how quickly the torque is applied by the electric motor.

I need to work on the rear springs now. I see my three options as follows:

1) make spacers to compress the existing springs more.

2) buy a cheap ebay coilover kit.

3) Get stiffer springs from a different car.

The best solution is probably to get springs from a different car. The only problem is that the solution won't be adjustable, so I have to hit it right the first time. I read that someone else with a civic was able to use some 87 Integra springs to get the proper ride height.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Here's today's project.

I decided to try putting spacers in the rear springs. I measured the difference between front and rear and then taking the suspension geometry into account, I decided I needed 1 1/8" of spacer.

I machined the following spacers on a CNC milling machine:


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I borrowed some spring compressors from Auto Zone and some banding tools from my dad. After hours of fiddling with the spring compressors, I came up with a technique that worked.

I first jacked the car up and let it down with a jack stand under the hub to compress the spring. I then put three strips of banding around the spring to keep it somewhat compressed. Finally, I used the spring compressors to compress it the rest of the way. I slipped in the spacers, then reversed the process.

Unfortunately, my calculations were a little off. It's still sagging a little in the rear. It's quite a bit better than it was, though. It's good enough to put the car on the road.


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

BradQuick said:


> Here's today's project.
> 
> I decided to try putting spacers in the rear springs. I measured the difference between front and rear and then taking the suspension geometry into account, I decided I needed 1 1/8" of spacer.
> 
> I machined the following spacers on a CNC milling machine:


dude.. where were you when i needed 1.5" inches extra on my rear springs???? I paid almost $300 for custom springs!


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

PatricioIN said:


> dude.. where were you when i needed 1.5" inches extra on my rear springs???? I paid almost $300 for custom springs!


spacers a cheaper for sure, BUT you have less travel before coil is completely compressed and more likely to bottom on on a big bump....


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I think it usually hits a rubber bumper before the coils compress completely, so I think I've gained a little travel. I tested it over a dip in our neighborhood where it previously bottomed out and I think it's better now.

- Brad


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I got it registered today and went for the first full test ride with my 13 year old son.

We did a total of 24.7 miles at various speeds, mostly between 40 and 55 mph. I did a couple of speed tests. It got up to 73 mph and was still accelerating when I backed off. It will do at least 75 mph, maybe 80.

Acceleration is OK, but nothing to brag about. I'm starting off in 2nd and shifting to 3rd at around 40 mph (which should be about 5000 rpm). I'm still not sure I'm hitting full throttle on the controller because of the throttle pot I'm using.

Voltage sags to 120 volts under moderate acceleration when the charge is fresh. At the end of the run, it was sagging to around 108 volts and the low voltage slow down was kicking in on the controller (I have LVC programmed for 100V). I live on top of a big hill and it was struggling to get up.

When I stopped, the voltage was around 139, but within a few minutes, it was up to 144.5 volts.

I checked the batteries both before the run and after with a hygrometer. I was under the impression that the hygrometer would tell me the state of charge, but it read high both before and after. I'm assuming that I was incorrect and that the hygrometer tells me the health of the batteries?

Overall, I'm happy with the performance. I'm hoping that once the batteries break in and I'm not hitting 70 mph, I'll be able to get 30 miles out of a charge.

I'll see how well the QuickCharge charger charges it by morning. Hopefully I can drive it to work.

I know... I still owe you a video.

- Brad


----------



## PatricioIN (Jun 13, 2008)

back to the "clunking" in 2nd for a sec.. if you don't have a clutch, like many of us, the drivetrain will be a bit clunky in general. Since you have a solid coupler between the two shafts, there's really no way around it. Now, what I was orignally experiencing goes way beyond that! But you said yours was not nearly as bad, so it may just be normal (hard to tell without hearing it or driving it).

For the QuickCharger, it's slow, but works fine for me. Just like everything else in the project, it was a compromise between wants and dollars! Since I pull in the garage and charge everynight, there was simply no need for a more expensive, faster charger. I've not had any problems with it so far. The only thing I've noticed is that occasionally my Curtis fuel gauge won't reset to green. It's very rare and I always have my voltmeter to rely on. It has always reset on the next charge when this does happen.

I have no experience with the trojan 12v batts, but I suspect that with moderate driving (google hypermiling for some good tips) and city speeds, you should easily get over 30 miles per charge in that small car. As far as acceleration, though I have no experience with Kelley controllers, I have read from MANY Kelley users that they simply don't produce the amps they claim to.


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

Since I stiffened up my transmission torque mount, the clunking isn't bad. I would say it's the normal transmission clunkiness that others have noticed.

The QuickCharge did charge it all the way up last night without any problems. I figure I'll run it like this for a while and if I find that I need to charge faster, I'll wire some other type of charger in parallel and make it so I can plug in either one or two chargers.

I know older Kelly controllers were low on amps, but I think the newer ones are better. I recently replaced an older one with a newer one in my motorcycle and the difference was noticeable.

- Brad


----------



## TheSGC (Nov 15, 2007)

I get clunking everytime I start up, but it's just the transmission spinning up and engaging (Autotranny). It's going to clunk because of all that torque on start up.

I adjusted my charger last night to a recommended float charge, but now I regret it. I ended up limping into work today the last 2 miles because two batteries were very low and didn't get fully charged. I have a old skool k&W charger that will bulk charge up to a set point, then floats. I was recommended a float charge of 14.4 volts, and I usually have 14.8 volts, and it made a stinking huge difference. I set it back and now it's charging and tonight it's going to get a good charge over. 

I also have an older Kelly KDH09401 that does fine on flats, but once a hill comes that's it. I can't wait until I get my new Synkro and add another battery.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

just a quick comment about coil spacers for those who are interested. While there are some drawbacks to coil spacers versus a new spring they can be had fairly cheap. Off road supply companies make them for Jeep Cherokees and Wranglers. They can be found a 4x4 store if there is one near by.


----------



## kixGas (May 2, 2008)

btw- cool build


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I got the tachometer working yesterday. It would be difficult to get pictures. I used a DC proximity sensor from automationdirect.com (we had them at work). There's a tachometer testing connector in the honda wiring harness. The signal from the sensor connected directly to this connector. I made a simple bar of steel, 1/2" x 1-1/2", 2-1/2" long with the ends rounded, a 7/8" hole in the center and a setscrew to hold it in place. It works perfectly.

And for a special treat, this morning I took a video of the car and posted it on youtube. You can even watch the pack voltage as I drive. It's not as clear in the youtube version. I had to edit out most of the trip back because the video was too long for youtube.

You can find it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfRq5KW7zl4

- Brad


----------



## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

sweeeet.... how long do you have to wait between gears for clutchless shifting? I know mine (with clutch and flywheel in place) takes about 12-13 seconds to spin down enough for me to upshift....


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I would say it's between 3 to 4 seconds to shift. I don't see it being a problem, especially since I don't have to shift all that often.

- Brad


----------



## ClintK (Apr 27, 2008)

BradQuick said:


> I got the tachometer working yesterday. It would be difficult to get pictures. I used a DC proximity sensor from automationdirect.com (we had them at work). There's a tachometer testing connector in the honda wiring harness. The signal from the sensor connected directly to this connector. I made a simple bar of steel, 1/2" x 1-1/2", 2-1/2" long with the ends rounded, a 7/8" hole in the center and a setscrew to hold it in place. It works perfectly.
> 
> And for a special treat, this morning I took a video of the car and posted it on youtube. You can even watch the pack voltage as I drive. It's not as clear in the youtube version. I had to edit out most of the trip back because the video was too long for youtube.


Very pretty drive. Of course I'm in Phoenix right now so any kind of green / trees is gorgeous.

Do you know of an aftermarket tachometer that would work with the DC proximity sensor?


----------



## BradQuick (May 10, 2008)

I'm guessing that most tachs would work with a prox. sensor. I'm no expert by any means, but I think the tachs are looking for pulse frequency.

Here's a link to the one that I used:

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...ndard_Sensing_Distance_(AK1_Series)/AK1-AP-1A

- Brad


----------



## Astronomer (Aug 7, 2008)

Nice video, Brad. Thanks for going to the trouble of making it. The only thing missing is the EV Grin reflected in the rear view mirror.


----------



## MajorK (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi Folks,

My name is Ash and I just wanted to introduce myself. I am a retired US Army Engineer officer and I'm looking to eventually start an electric car conversion business here on the east coast.

I'm posting first here in this thread as I am the new proud owner of Brad's Del Sol, and am looking forward to opening up the next few chapters in the evolution of this great little car.

Brad was a pleasure to meet and your first impression is that this guy is switched "on". The Del Sol is now in my driveway, charging away.

We'll keep you posted with more pics and video.

Regards,

Ash


----------

