# Ford Granada Build Thread



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Now i have started my first EV-conversion. The car is a Ford Granada 1977. Yes, a quite old car. This will be a hobby/enthusiast car. I managed to find a decent object, not too rusty with some sheetmetal replaced, new fenders, a lot of things in the suspension replaced with new parts and the car was repainted a couple of years ago. Bought it two weeks ago and drove it home some 400km. 

The drive home was a bit of an adventure, the car ran just fine, but the weather.. I drove up the coast of the northern baltic area in the worst snowstorm for years, the first 200km of the trip took some time. 18-wheelers parked wherever possible, accidents, police rerouting traffic and so on. But the more north i drove the better, and colder, the weather became, reached home in the middle of the night under a clear night sky and -20C.

Batteries are allready bought, 80 LYP100. I will probably use 78 of them in series, 250V nominal. I am almost ready to order a Soliton 1 controller, a Kostov K11 and all the other parts. From my calculations the weight of the car will increase about 90Kg. I will place 24 cells under the boot where the original gas tank was, 12 behind the rear seat just above the rear axle, and the rest under the hood around and above the K11. From my calculations so far i will retain the weight distribution of 55% front and 45% rear.

The Granada i bought is a 2000L, though it has the Ghia front, it has a 2L 4 cyl. engine (some call it the Pinto engine) and a 5 speed manual gearbox from a Sierra. It is one of the lighter Granadas, with a curb weight of 1320Kg. I will not use the manual gearbox, that will be replaced with a Ford C4 automatic without the converter. I was looking for a Granada with auto tranny, but i could not find one in a decent shape. These Fords did come with the C3 gearbox, but since i have to buy a gearbox anyway i will go for the C4. It is a stronger unit and it is much easier to find parts for those than the C3.

Enough said for now. Here is my first pictures of the car, taken at a gas station when i begun my trip home and the bad weather begun.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Here are the 80 Winston Batteries, LYP 100Ah. They are not new, made in 2011 but still unused. The yellow casing says Thundersky wich was the former company name of Winston Batteries. I bought them from Kristaps Dambis who works for the company DriveeO in Latvia. He had a post under classified on this site.

When the batteries arrived i was surprised when an 18-wheel semi with Latvian plates parked on our little street outside my house. I was thiking_ What!?! Did they drive that thing all the way to me, something like 1500km to deliver my batteries? I was expecting some smaller Swedish delivery truck. Turned out that the trailer also contained a lot of fine baltic birch plywood to be delivered to a local company.










Quite lucky coincident actually. I was planning on buying just this kind of lithium/yttrium batteries not because they are the best overall performer but since they are supposed to work good in cold conditions. I do live 100km above the arctic circle with nine months of winter and a year round average temperature around the freezing point. From the 40 page manual they can be used down to -45C and better yet, can be charged down to -25C. But of course i will insulate the battery boxes anyway, maybe even install a thin self regulating heater cable in the bottom of the boxes, maybe a total of 100-150W for all boxes.


----------



## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

Cool car mate. Kinda big ish. Looks like you have suitable battery pack for it thou.


----------



## mora (Nov 11, 2009)

Very cool. Good luck for your project. I'll be watching with great interest. I was going to install battery heating system for my cells too but am too busy (lazy) to work on it. Car works as is but I'd surely notice performance difference in cold conditions (-25C or colder outside). I was thinking of 100W per battery box (20-25 cells) to keep heating times shorter.


----------



## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi Steelneck, no matter what the manual says keep batteries warm. I had my thermostat for battery heater at five degrees and Soliton was tripping at low volt as soon i left home. Adjusted the thermostat and have full power again.Good luck with your conversion.
Regards, Harri


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

You may consider using Inrekor aluminum foam panels for your battery boxes.
This will give you very good insulation and strength.

http://www.inrekor.com


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

sunworksco said:


> You may consider using Inrekor aluminum foam panels for your battery boxes.
> This will give you very good insulation and strength.
> 
> http://www.inrekor.com


Interesting Giovanni. Three questions. 

*Where do i buy panels like that? (the site in your link did not have anything like a webshop) 
*What is the price? (the site did not even hint about it)
* How are those panels supposed to be put together?


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Steel

If you want to get fancy I would recommend fiberglass/honeycomb instead of the aluminium

non conducting
Simple router/fold and epoxy together (using fiberglass tape) 

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=112925

Below the quote for AYRLITE 2016. All other terms & conditions continue to be valid.


*AYRLITE® 2016 Glass fibre reinforced epoxy resin faced Aluminium Honeycomb Panel*
Panel Features:

• ISO 1182 Non-Combustibility Test of Aluminium Honeycomb Core
• Aluminium Honeycomb Core meets the requirements of AMS-C-7438 Salt Fog Anti - Corrosion performance

Dimensions: 2400 mm x 1200 mm x 20mm x *1 ply*
Weight: 2.3 kg/m2
Price: AUD$ 419.00 + GST per panel

Dimensions: 2400 mm x 1200 mm x 20mm x *2 ply*
Weight: 3.5 kg/m2
Price: AUD$ 559.00 + GST per panel

Dimensions: 2400 mm x 1200 mm x 20mm x *3 ply*
Weight: 4.7 kg/m2
Price: AUD$ 699.00 + GST per panel


I suspect you will find a closer supplier!


----------



## sunworksco (Sep 8, 2008)

You can make your own from two 2mm sheets of aluminum and 1" thickness polyethylene foam boards. Prep the bonding side of the aluminum sheets, cleaning with acid, then use the recommended 3-M adhesive troweled onto the sheet. The polyethylene boards are made in China, so inexpensive. The aluminum and foam can be cut by hand or by waterjet cutting machine.
Take a radiant gas heater and heat up the polyethylene until it becomes tacky, then press the parts together. Use 3-M adhesive temperature guidelines. We have a wholesale fiberglass materials supplier in California that has a 13 ton hydraulic press that can laminate the sheets together for 30 minutes to get a good bond. You should be able to locate a press for your small parts. If not improvise by using plywood and weights. Look at the Porsche 356 Inrekor
Chassis below. The perimeter of the panels can also be dove-tail for added strength. You can also rivet square aluminum threaded lugs into the each of panels in intervals for fastening with bolts. You can alternatively tack them together with a laser welder.

Honeycomb is great.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I started to fabricate braided interconnects for my battery cells. I like the idea to have at least a bit soft connections between cells. It is a car, things move, vibrates and change by temperature, soft connections put less stress on the cell poles. 

I make them from the tinned copper wire core of 40 square mm starter cable, around 35mm2 braided ground strap and 15mm copper tubing. Once pressed flat i solder the ends before drilling the holes. When i solder using a propane torch, i have the braided part between the ends clamped in a vice, keeping that part cold, that way the solder wont be sucked in to the part that should remain soft. The ends get 21mm wide and 5.5mm thick. The braided part is around 75 square mm, i think that is more than enough to get through the amperage needed.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Hi Steel
the braid is a good idea but you should do it in aluminium braid with thin aluminum tube to crush the ends with. I use this type in my R1 race bike.
Because you have so many straps you should try to save weight.

Ask this guy for bulk purchase.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SGP-16-x...896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af9c20da0


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> Hi Steel
> the braid is a good idea but you should do it in aluminium braid with thin aluminum tube to crush the ends with. I use this type in my R1 race bike.
> Because you have so many straps you should try to save weight.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SGP-16-x...896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5af9c20da0


I have already made all my straps. The total weight of them all is 3.2kg.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

steelneck said:


> I have already made all my straps. The total weight of them all is 3.2kg.


Ah well you would have saved 2.5kg  never mind


----------



## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

sunworksco said:


> You can make your own from two 2mm sheets of aluminum and 1" thickness polyethylene foam boards. Prep the bonding side of the aluminum sheets, cleaning with acid, then use the recommended 3-M adhesive troweled onto the sheet. The polyethylene boards are made in China, so inexpensive. The aluminum and foam can be cut by hand or by waterjet cutting machine.
> Take a radiant gas heater and heat up the polyethylene until it becomes tacky, then press the parts together. Use 3-M adhesive temperature guidelines. We have a wholesale fiberglass materials supplier in California that has a 13 ton hydraulic press that can laminate the sheets together for 30 minutes to get a good bond. You should be able to locate a press for your small parts. If not improvise by using plywood and weights. Look at the Porsche 356 Inrekor
> Chassis below. The perimeter of the panels can also be dove-tail for added strength. You can also rivet square aluminum threaded lugs into the each of panels in intervals for fastening with bolts. You can alternatively tack them together with a laser welder.


You forgot to add he should also get a FaroArm to check measurements after laser welding. You feeling alright there dude?


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I have started the first real modifications of the car, the rear battery box. But first a bit of the de-ice process, removing the gas tank.










Here is the unmodified view of the trunk. The floor will be opened up and the 24 cells will be sticking up a couple of cm, later i will build a lid fitting over them. The second battery box with 12 cells in a row will be placed between the two shock absorber mounts, right behind the back seat.










Here the floor is cut open and the beginning of the box is held in place above the "trailer beam" (do not know the right English word). The upper part of the box will be welded to the floor and it has to be quite strong as it has to replace some of floor strength, especially since this car will be able to tow a trailer.










This is the view from underneath. As you may see i also have a bit of rust to take care of too, it is an old car after all..


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

steelneck said:


> Here the floor is cut open and the beginning of the box is held in place above the "trailer beam" (do not know the right English word).


Tow bar....


----------



## toddshotrods (Feb 10, 2009)

steelneck said:


> ..."trailer beam" (do not know the right English word)...





RIPPERTON said:


> Tow bar....


Tow _hitch_ on this-side-of-the-pond's English. 

Nice work. I had the American version of a 77 Ford Granada in my head when I saw the thread title, then saw the pics - cool.


----------



## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Nice looking car  older than me lol


----------



## Dustin_mud (May 22, 2012)

Very cool car, sure wish they sold these cars in the states.


----------



## John Metric (Feb 26, 2009)

That is "DIY" electric car parts right there....


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Some progress made, been doing rust repair, boooring..










Now when the back of the car is free from rust i will get back to making the battery boxes.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I have started a blog to document the conversion, it is in Swedish:
http://www.steelneck.eu/category/elbil

I will write a bit more detailed there, n Swedish, and post a few more pictures than here.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Some progress. I have made the first battery box and mounted it right above the rear axle behind the back seat. The box is not finished, there will be a self regulating heater cable and then about 2cm insulation before the batteries is put in place.




























This battery box is open to the trunk, later i will make a cover that also will hold the batteries firmly in place.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update. Both rear boxes in place. The one in the floor will hold 24 cells and the other 12.










As you can see, the cells in the floor box will stick up about an inch, later i will build a strong cover for them, strong so that the top of the lid wont bow down if i put something heavy in the trunk. The boxes will get about 2 cm of insulation and a self regulating heat cable. The box is welded to the floor, but that is not the main mount, on the underside i reuse the mounts for the original gas tank.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have insulated the rear battery box and installed a heater cable.










It put 2 cm insulation in the sides, the bottom got 1 cm of the type that is meant for floor heating with a grooved layer of aluminum. The cable is of the self regulating type that works like a PTC element. Around 30 degree C its resistance goes up quickly so it will never get really hot. As any part of the cable get warmer, _that_ part get higher resistance and cools down, at the same time as another part could be cold and thus have lower resistance and be warmer. If the wattage installed is within reason and there is no need to maintain a specific temperature, there is no need for thermostats. Quite simple and elegant.

The cable is rated 5-15W per meter. I will use around 7 meter for my total of around 1 square meter of battery boxes, so a total around 100W. That is close to what they recommend to install as floor heating in older houses with somewhat poor insulation. The cable is called T2-Red, it says "Tyco Thermal Controls" on it, but i think it is made by Raychem.


----------



## crackerjackz (Jun 26, 2009)

Very nice looking battery boxes . Im going to be using the same heating cable . Ive used it often and we still use it to heat our horse bowls in winter !! Amazing product never had a problem in over 10 years of using it except when a dumb horse found a place to eat it and it ended up catching fire .... No big problems caused by that though ....







Make sure your heater cable cant rub against something and get used up over time


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Rear batteries in place!










The red hose contain the wires for the box floor heater cable. Combined the both rear boxes draw 35W when connected 12 hours in my garage, where it is around 10-12 degree C, around 0.5kWh was drawn those 12h just to test. I expect a little more once outside in cold conditions. Initially when connected cold the two heater cables draw 190W, but it quickly goes down to 40-50W as the heater cable warms up.

The two rearmost empty battery connections will be mid-pack once everything gets connected and to those the service breaker will be connected.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update.
Been doing rust repair, looked over the brakes and some other small things that needed to be taken care of. Now i have also started to make a coupling between the EM and the Ford C3 aut-tranny i have decided to use.

I needed the hub from the rotor inside the converter, and the tube that drives the internal front pump. That tube needed to be longer so it skips over the splines on the stator axle.

Here i am drilling out the rotor hub.


















Cutting out the tube that drive the front pump.


















Test mount the thing on the tranny. Next i will make a hub for the motor axle to be bolted together with this. Yes, it will be oil tight once finished.









Then i need to make an adapter plate between the Kostov K11 and the C3 gearbox. Does anyone know if i can buy such a plate? The bellhousing of my C3 take, among many engines, the european Ford 2.8 or the 2L OHV engine (some call it the Pinto engine).


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update, delivery.

Just got my motor, controller, cables and a lot of other small things,

The Kostov K11.










And the Soliton1 controller.


----------



## rtz (Jul 3, 2013)

You're making really good progress.


----------



## MN Driver (Sep 29, 2009)

Your Kostov looks like it was packaged the same way my K9HV was but mine had both plastic covers cracked somehow, even though it was pretty much locked in the crate so it couldn't turn on its side and when I opened the crate it was straight up and down so I don't know how it happened on mine.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

rtz said:


> You're making really good progress.


Thank you. But in my mind i am slow, sometimes i work much more on small details than actually needed, or taking long breaks listening on the radio and overly reflecting or ponder over some details.


----------



## pontiac (Sep 23, 2010)

Did you buy the EMC package too?


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

pontiac said:


> Did you buy the EMC package too?


Yes i did.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update.

Have given the engine (motor) bay a fresh layer of primer, next is to paint in the same red color as the rest of the car.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Motor bay painted.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have now started to make the front battery boxes, they will contain 42 cells.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

shorten the tailshaft to fit the motor in the tunnel.
Then you have more battery space.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Looking good!


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> shorten the tailshaft to fit the motor in the tunnel.
> Then you have more battery space.


Already been done. The gearbox is 18cm further back than original, and that is about as far back it can be moved without modifying the tunnel so much that even the mounts for the front seats has to be modified.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Some progress made..

Two new battery boxes waiting for insulation and floor heating.



















Adapter plate in making










Adapter plate and motor coupling mounted on the Kostov K11










Test run of the gearbox (i used 10 cells, 32V for this).


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Are you going to use a prepump for the transmission. ?

See if you can cut this red area off for more clearance and an coupling inspection port.

Edit: actually your tunnel will cover this so any inspection port will have to be in the bottom of the bell housing


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> Are you going to use a prepump for the transmission. ?


Yes, but i have not yet decided on some specific pump. It would be nice if a Bosch 044 could do the job, but i am a bit unsure how it handles ATF. Do you have any suggestions about the pump?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

steelneck said:


> Do you have any suggestions about the pump?


Yes first don't use one and go easy on throttle up from stand still to see how harshly it grabs.

Mizlplix will flame me for this


----------



## EV-propulsion.com (Jun 1, 2009)

I'll agree with you though Rip...


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> Yes first don't use one and go easy on throttle up from stand still to see how harshly it grabs.


Normally that is how we drive, but i know that some time i just want to floor it  Also, it should be just like any other car to drive for someone else, without any special instructions.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Made a motor cradle that connects to the rubber motor mounts in the subframe of the car.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Relocated the connection posts on the motor, i let A2 and D3 change place, and made two busbars.
Thank you Old.DSMer that came up with the idea to relocate the posts.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Major milestone #1.* 
Motor is in.










Below is a pick with the front battery box temp. in place for measurement.










With everything in place, i am going to get a vertical center of gravity in the front around the mount of the upper A-arms, about the inside side of the rims. Quite a bit lower than it was before.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Milestone #2*

Wheels are spinning. I have connected a few cells just to test motor, controller, RPM sensor in the car. Also to check that i do not have any unexpected vibrations, since i have have shorten the drive shaft between gearbox and the diff. since last update here. Now i have just started to make battery cables.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have now started to make and mount battery cables. I will not have the cables go through holes in the boxes, instead go over as in the picture. The cover of the boxes will be made according to this. I will also install micro breakers that break the battery circuit via the main contactor (breaks midpack) when opening any of the battery box covers.










I will route the cables between front and rear boxes, side by side along the tunnel of the car.

I wonder, what would be "best practice" in this case. How have you done? How have you protected the cables, materials used, have you marked up where the cables are located and so on. I think this could be a section of good practice tips in the wiki part of this site.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have now installed the heater in the fan box. Three PTC-elements, together around 4500 Watts. It remains to be seen their actual wattage running for real, since their power draw is dependent on temperature and how much cold air the fan manage to blow past them.










I will do some experiments building a very low Hz PWM controller for this, using either IGBT or solid state relay.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Installed a vacuum pump. It is a Hella UP30 that came out of a Volvo V60 2011. This is a pump that is made to provide all vacuum to the brake booster. Many cars have the Hella UP28, but that only is a helper pump and is too small for an electric car.










In picture you also see my alternator arrangement. Now someone may say that it will turn in the wrong direction. Well, it is an alternator, not a generator, electrically it does not matter which direction it turns. The only thing that has direction is the cooling fan, but that is easy to change, just bend the fan blades backwards and than mount it backwards. - But it will turn to slow. I hear someone say.. On the ICE the alternator turns 1,7 times faster than the engine, but the EM will on average run on much higher RPM than the ICE. So on average it will turn just a little slower. Also the car wont need as much 12V as before, the alternator do not need to charge back what the starter motor took or supply any ignition system.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

All batteries now in place and connected.


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Steel.. 

On the Hella UP30 did you run it direct to the vacuum brakes.


Ivan


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Ivansgarage said:


> On the Hella UP30 did you run it direct to the vacuum brakes.


The vacuumpump is not connected yet, i am waiting for a vacuum-switch to control it and i will first test connecting it directly to the brake booster. It will probably be OK since my booster has a quite large volume, i do not think i will be needing an extra reservoir. With the ICE not running i had enough vacuum for at least three brakes.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

This is one of the threads that gets me excited when I see that there is a new post. I am probably a DIY EV junkie, because I look through this site everyday, looking for a "fix" of EV craftsmanship. When I see that this thread has a new post, I click on it immediately to get my "fix" of what I need. Thanks steelneck for keeping this thread up to date. Keep up the great work!


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Blush... ;-)


----------



## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Will you "idle" the traction motor to keep the 12v battery charging sitting at lights, or will you just try not to get stuck in a traffic jam too long with the head lights on ?

I only ask because I've got a Honda hybrid at home, and that thing goes to great lengths to avoid relying on the stored capacity of the 12v battery in any way (stuck in traffic, it will flatten the traction pack continuing to power/charge the 12v with the gas motor off).

That's clever with alternator, and probably way cheaper than a DC-DC.

Sam


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

No i will not idle, part because i have a converterless auto tanny. From experience (forgetting to turn off lights when parked for hours) i know that a decent size 12V battery in good shape will last a long time with the headlights on. I will also install a small 12V charger that goes on when charging the main pack.

Yes it is a lot cheaper with an alternator, it comes with the car to begin with and used ones can almost be had for free. They are also time tested and reliable in extreme, vibratiuons, high pressure wash, dirt snow, cold temps, hot temps, whatever, they just keep on going. But it is a bit more work when doing the conversion than just connecting a DC/DC and they do need some space close to the EM.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I got an idea. Right now my HV cables between front and back are routed along the tunnel inside the car, some cm up from the floor on the passenger side. No where near any 12V that go under the doors on the driver side. My reason for this was because i could not get a protected path in the tunnel from the back of the gearbox all the way to the diff, the tunnel is quite narrow along the drive shaft and also contain the handbrake wires.

If something happens to the HV cables, it is better that it happens outside of the cabin, but on the other hand, the odds for it to actually happen, is greater on the outside than inside. So how to square this circle? This made me come up with an idea, that feels better the more i think of it, it's very simple too. Just put back part of the exhaust pipes, they are tailor made for the car, replace the front muffler with a pipe and route the cables through those, the cables get just as protected as inside and they are out of the cabin. Probably a lot more EMI insulated too. For me this would still be quite simple to do since i have not put my interior back and my cables are not yet permanently in place. I think i will do this. You are very welcome with any opinions on this idea.


----------



## samwichse (Jan 28, 2012)

Thanks for the info, I was just curious because of how much Honda really babies the 12v battery.



steelneck said:


> If something happens to the HV cables, it is better that it happens outside of the cabin, but on the other hand, the odds for it to actually happen, is greater on the outside than inside. So how to square this circle? This made me come up with an idea, that feels better the more i think of it, it's very simple too. Just put back part of the exhaust pipes, they are tailor made for the car, replace the front muffler with a pipe and route the cables through those, the cables get just as protected as inside and they are out of the cabin. Probably a lot more EMI insulated too.


Cable armor! I like it, but I wonder what the chance of something ripping the exhaust pipe off and kinking it around your HV cable is... probably a lot less than the chance of something scraping hard and baring some conductor/pulling your wires loose.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I think i have given up the idea to route HV-cables through exhaust pipes, mainly because they cannot be inspected. The only easy way to get the cables to be still inside the pipes would be to fill them with that kind of foam used by carpenters, it would probably work just fine for years, but if you of some reason want to inspect the cables, or get to them for whatever reason, you are out of luck.


----------



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Enjoying watching your work- wishing you the best of luck! But what a big lug of a donor car! My dad made a tractor out of the IC drivetrain of an old RWD Granada once, and the car was quite the boat...I have pictures of him loading the corpse on top of our trailer, using his big homemade hydraulic scissor jack, some concrete blocks, some chain and a crowbar- photos taken so the guys at the wreckers would believe him when he told them how the body got up on top of the box trailer...He had shown up with several other bodies in previous years and the wrecker guys never believed him about how he did it.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*EV-Grin!*


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

steelneck said:


> *EV-Grin!*


The suspense is killing me. Tell me all the dirty details....


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

Yes, please do tell!! Have you been driving it?


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Just wanted to say sweet work so far. Please tell!


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Sorry for keeping you waiting on my answer. Yes, i have driven the car, just some test drives. The car is far from finished, but is now driveable. This weekend we have had a classic car meeting in my town, around 400 classics, i had the car on display there. I got a lot of attention and had to answer questions for hours. On Saturday evening it was party, bands on stage playing rock'n roll, rockabilly and similar music associated with classic cars and so on. The whole evening i had to answer even more questions (all the beer could have something to with it..).



















The most usual questions i got was about range, performance and how long it takes to charge it. My answer was 100-150 km, 0-100 kmh in around 7-8 sec and over night in a normal 10 Amp wall socket or 3-4 hours at 400V three phase, all depending on charger.

Some things i had just installed/connected temporarily just get the running to this weekend, now it is back in the garage. The car ran mostly fine, but of course there was some problems. My vacuum-pump goes constantly on/off, like every second. The vacuum switch is probably a bit too sensitive and a bit too close to the pump. When the pump goes off the switch probably feels some acoustic shock from the pump going off and then turns it on again, but since there already is full vacuum it goes off again, a constant tick, tock.. I have to install a small reservoir and put the switch there, that will probably solve it.

Here is a pic of the vacuum-switch and the Evnetics pot.










At first test my gearbox shifted up way to early, i got third gear before even getting up to 30 kmh. Adjusted it, but too much, now i never got to third, backed off a little and i got the upshift at least decent. My gearbox is originally both vacuum and wire controlled. The vacuum modulator controls upshift and the wire normally connected to the accelerator controls downshift. So far i have not connected the "kick down" to anything, so i had to downshift manually, unless going to full stop. I have some adjusting to do until i get my gearbox to behave.

So far i have not put back any sound dampening, now i know that this is even more important as electric car. It is an old car and with no ICE making a lot of sound i hear all those sounds that normally is drowned by the ICE.

These pics are from the car meeting


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Great build steelneck, and that looks like a brilliant group of enthusiasts to be part of! Good luck with finishing your build.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have not been doing much on the car the last two weeks. First i was working late on my job for a week, then i got to take care of a leak up on the roof of my house. Though i have managed to do something on the car since last post,

I have got the charger in place, it is only a small Elcon PFC 1500 (1500W). Mt reason for that is that i want to be able to plug in at whatever wall outlet on this charger. Here where i live above the arctic circle we have 240V/10A just about everywhere, mostly used in the winters for engine heaters. I wanted to stay around 2kW with my charger, battery heating and a small 12V charger, so i can plug in where everybody else plug in their cars.

Some pictures..





































Have also mounted the tow bar (or whatever it is called in English).

Now i have got the car on a scale to see if i got the weight where i wanted. Before the conversion it was 1330Kg and now it is 1450. Close to 100Kg is in the rear. This will change a little bit since i have temp. put the old lead battery back in the trunk. I will put a 30-40Ah lithium battery in the front instead, and the old spare tire from the seventies will be changed to a lighter and modern one. I guess that the car will be around 30Kg heavier in the front and around 70Kg in the rear once finished.

BTW. this Friday i visited Kiruna, our neighbor town north of here, and went to a concert. I guess anyone, regardless of age, who like simple plain rock'n roll recognize these gentlemen.. They still can do it as they always have done, since like forever. The have kept things quite status quo ;-)


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Your wanting to plug in where everybody else does is spot on. I am amazed to finally see somebody else who recognizes the value of plugging into a common plug. Here in the USA, they sell new EVs equipped with only a special super rare plug, and they don't equip them with a common plug. Steelneck, I salute you, and your EV is absolutely beautiful.


----------



## favguy (May 2, 2008)

That's coming together nicely  Your front spotlight configuration is interesting, haven't seen that before, nicely different.

I too only use an ordinary plug, 16A, 230V Blue camp site type with an adapter to standard 13A plugs used here in the UK. I've been thinking about making an adapter box to J1772 so I can use more of the commercial charging stations popping up.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Thank you, both evmetro and favguy. I like both your builds, the Cadillac and the FavElec. Favguy your build has a finish to it that is stunning, like factory made. In the evmetro Cadillac thread i also see some very good construction work so far.

About charging. Yes, charging station maufacturers and car makers seem to complicate things, probably for a future profit that actually makes things more expensive for car owners, maybe also more complicated and prone for errors. Where i live there are no charging stations, at all, so i make things to fit ordinary outlets that we have plenty of at most parking lots. In car i will have this weak charger, but i will build a three phase stationary charger, probably a capacitive bad boy based one. I have been mucking around with some large caps and a bridge rectifier and it is amazing how simple things can be, charging just about any battery or pack. I will just have to teach it some manners so it become a bit more safe to use unattended.

The front lights. They come from WV Golf II (Is it called Rabbit in the US?). At first my idea was to orient them just like they are on the WV, but when i stood there in my garage thinking on how to do it, i just got the idea out of the blue to put the two small extra headlights together in the center. The grill is not quite finished yet, it will go around the main headlights too.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

A bit of update.

Early when i was still planning and taking measurements on the original car, i thought about how to get access to the batteries placed under the controller. Then i decided to mount the controller on a tilting frame. I guess i have forgot to post pics. about that, so here they come..



















The lid of the battery box (removed in picture) under the controller is held in place by the tilting frame once the controller is down. By this construction i can get to the cells without disconnecting anything.

The aluminum sheet metal at the ends of the controller serve both as protection over the HV-terminals and as two small boxes for most things more than 12V (there is a cover too..)

Since last post i have mainly been connecting things, the charger, relays and such. My battery circuit is connected so that when both the rear contactor and the controller is shut off, the maximum voltage to get in touch with is 38V in the two largest battery boxes. The built in contactors in the controller breaks at one end of the pack, and the rear contactor (and also a service breaker) breaks midpack at the other end. 

The rear contactor turns on at the AUX position of the key, but my charger will also, via a relay, turn it on as soon as it gets AC of the grid, independent of the key.

I have also been experiencing some isolation problems (in the mA region), but i wont go into that until i have sorted it out a bit more.


----------



## Moltenmetal (Mar 20, 2014)

Man oh man, that car is from a totally different vintage than the thing my dad butchered to make a tractor out of! I didn't see the overall pics until I checked your thread again today- what a difference from the boxy thing I was thinking of!

You've got yourself a beautiful car there, and workmanship to be really proud of! Great job- looking forward to seeing the finishing touches!


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update.

Almost finished. The only thing missing under the hood is a box for the heater control and a small vacuum reservoir.



















I have also installed an inertia switch located in the back, connected to the contactor that breaks midpack in the rear of the car.










I have the contactor, a manual service breaker, the main traction fuse and the inertia switch located at the same place. The little orange wire at the busbar on the contactor is the midpack tap for a Lee Hart Batt bridge battery alarm. When both the service breaker and the contactor is off, this midpack tap gets disconnected from both sides of the pack. I will make an isolated version of the batt bridge, using LED/Photocell optoisolators instead of just wires with pack voltage to the LEDs inside the car.

This is how it looks from the trunk.










Some of the things left to do now: 

* Two covers for the rear batt boxes. 
* Make a heater control using a couple of IGBTs
* Install an external pump for the auto tranny.
* Install a 12V 40Ah litium battery
* Install instrumentation in the car.










To replace the original instrumantation i have ordered a speedometer, a tach and a tank meter from Speedhut.com. The tach will double as both RPM and Amp using a switch. I ordered the instruments the 7th of July but things seem to be slow, as far as i know the items is not shipped yet. Anyone with experience ordering from them?


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

More Lithium..










Just got home a 12V/40Ah Winston battery. This will be my "aux battery" replacing the old lead battery of the car, saving around 6.5Kg. I got it from GWL-Power in the Czech Republic and it was a fast delivery, only 5 workdays home to me in the north of Sweden (a 3000km transport) despite the package was considered dangerous goods and held up in Germany for a while. The inner market of the EU is really working smooth these days, no custom hazzle or paperwork, i could just as well ordered from somewhere within Sweden.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Mountnted the 12V battery.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

> * Install an external pump for the auto tranny.


So youre saying you don't have a prepump at the moment.
How do you find the engagement of 1st gear from stand still. ?

My next build will have a 3 speed auto and no torque converter.
The single speed Mira is a bit slow off the line especially on hill starts.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> So youre saying you don't have a prepump at the moment.
> How do you find the engagement of 1st gear from stand still. ?
> 
> My next build will have a 3 speed auto and no torque converter.


I do not have a prepump at the moment, though i have only done some test drives. I have to push the pedal _very_ gently to let the tranny slowly build its pressure, then it will yank in the first gear quite harsh, but since the motor is spinning slowly it _can_ be driven that way without breaking anything. I would not recommend anyone to use an auto without converter this way.

For your next build i recommend a Ford C3 or C4* (depending on performance) since they have both a vacuum modulator and a kick down wire. The vacuum modulator control upshifts, and the kick down control downshift. With static manual adjustment on both you get control of both up and down-shift RPM. 

*(unless you go for some electronic controlled thing and have the knowledge to hack that - probably not so hard with older units that probably can be controlled via ordinary cube relays)

At my first test i only had adjustment for the vacuum mod. In that state i got it to upshift OK, but it did not downshift until almost stand still. But once i also put an adjust screw on the kick down lever i could also adjust downshift to my liking.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Almost finished in the trunk


----------



## victor_s (Jul 30, 2014)

hello. what about the vacuum reservoir, did you install it? please share details / pictures.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

victor_s said:


> hello. what about the vacuum reservoir, did you install it?


Nope, i came up with another solution. When starting to investigate why the vacuum pump constantly whent on-off, i discovered that the check-valve in it was a bit slow. This was the reason that it went on-off all the time. There is plenty of vacuum volume in the original brake booster, its like a half swab bucket. So i added a bit of delay-off creating a hysteresis for the switch. When the switch turn off, the relay will run the pump for a little longer.

I came up with this circuit:









Soldered it into this, i made the size so it would fit inside a cube relay.









Then i had laying around one of those double relays, perfect. Timer on side and relay on the other.









I set it about 1.5 sec, adjusted my vacuum switch and now it works perfect.

Update. 1.5s was to much when actually driving, i could feel the diff. between newly pumped and not. Just under a half second worked much better.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

I have just bottom balanced my cells. Took all the 78 cells down to 2.75 (give or take a couple of 1/100) by first running down the pack by driving and then by using the Soliton idle function in my garage, then either bypassing low cells or give them a little charge individually. After two days of running around with my meter i had them all down and the pack rested at 215V. They really do drop very fast once they go under 2.8V. Then i let them sit for some hours and now the car will get a full charge for the first time.

After just 6-7 minutes my little Elcon 1500W charger had got the voltage up to 225V. This really show how little energy the cells hold this far down in SoC. After 3h the pack was up to 254V and the charger had used 4.2kWh from the wall. 6 hours later i was in for a bit of surprise. Now the voltage was 258V and i took my meter and measured single cells. All of them showed 3.31V, all, not one single cell differed. I was expecting to see at least some of the cells at least little higher/lower than others. It will be very interesting to see their balance once the charger has cut of at 277.xx volts (it is set for 76 cells), also to see how many kWh the charger has drawn.

I have also finally got the instruments i ordered from Speedhut










Just discovered that there seem to be a limit on how many pictures i can have here, i just reached that limit..

The tach will double as both tach and ampmeter through the Fuel Gauge Driver Plus, will have a little switch to choose on the dash somewhere.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update. When my first full charge finished at 277V, then i got to see some expected unbalance. Most cells where around 3.55V but three of the 78 where just above 4.2V. When i let them sit for around 6h the high ones where settled down to 3.8 and all the rest within 1/10 around 3.42. So it looks like i have three cells with a bit less capacity.

When the charge ended my Elcon had drawn 32kWh from the wall. I do not know exactly how much that went in to the cells, but it seem to be quite a bit more than 100Ah. Here at the absolute top i see 0.8V diff between my left and right part of the pack (midpack is at the rear of the box in the trunk). From bottom and through almost the whole charge both halves where perfectly in balance. I expet them to be back in balance as soon as i use the car just a little. I have set my adjustable and isolated version of the Lee Hart Batt bridge so one red led light just faintly at this stage when there is 0.8V unbalance.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

ouch go easy dude.
just don't do the 2.8v and 4.2v stuff anymore.
3.0v min, 3.65v max


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

steelneck said:


> I do not have a prepump at the moment, though i have only done some test drives. I have to push the pedal _very_ gently to let the tranny slowly build its pressure, then it will yank in the first gear quite harsh, but since the motor is spinning slowly it _can_ be driven that way without breaking anything. I would not recommend anyone to use an auto without converter this way.
> 
> For your next build i recommend a Ford C3 or C4* (depending on performance) since they have both a vacuum modulator and a kick down wire. The vacuum modulator control upshifts, and the kick down control downshift. With static manual adjustment on both you get control of both up and down-shift RPM.
> 
> ...


First of all, Nice work..

You know they make tranny controllers for electronic trannys.

http://www.usshift.com/newname.shtml

Ivan


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> ouch go easy dude.
> just don't do the 2.8v and 4.2v stuff anymore.
> 3.0v min, 3.65v max


Nope. The 2.75 was bottom balancing, but the 4.2 in three cells was by mistake. My average per cell at full charge is 3.55, so i thought that i had plenty margin. If i do not replace the three, obviously low capacity cells, i will have to let the charger stop a bit earlier. I do have two spare cells. But on the other hand, i was expecting 100Ah (25kWh) and be able to use 80. Now it looks like i have more and can use 80 even if the charger stop much earlier.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Strange problem.*

I am currently installing my new instrument panel in the dash. I have a bright red LED lamp as the main warning from the Soliton, and i have three LEDs for the battery balance alarm, all LEDs are in the 12V system and share common ground. Now everything looks initially to work as it should, but when i start the Soliton and rev up the motor, all LEDs glow a little, the more amps i use the brighter they glow. I suspect they would light up fully if i would actually drive the car and thus use more amps.

First i suspected my isolated version of the Lee Hart Batt bridge, so i disconnected the wires from that, now those three LEDs went out, but the problem was still there with the warning LED. Reconnected the battery balance alarm and disconnected the warning LED. The warning LED went out but the problem was still there with the B-balance alarm LEDs.

Up until now i have used the original instrument panel of the car, with lightbulbs, no problem. Then i used my little test probe with LEDs, it has two LEDs showing if the probe feels plus or minus, or in the case of AC both LEDs light. Connected this test probe to the warning light wire (all LEDs in the dash connected) and to ground. Both the LEDs in my test probe glowed faintly when i rev up the motor. So i have a weak AC current between chassis and the cable i was testing??? Now what could be causing this? (the car is not connected to the AC grid)

Could this be some kind of induced current between cables coming from controller ripple?


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

Very nice work! A learned to drive in a Ford Granada many years ago, but it was the mid 70's shoebox we had here in the USA. Your version is beautiful, I've never seen that car before.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

A little update on my problem, a picture may help:










The four diodes in the upper part are located in my dashboard. The two outer red ones are in paralell connected to the Soliton Error output (via resistor). The 3 in the middle is connected to my isolated batt. bridge alarm. (The diodes in the original Lee Hart Battery balance alarm are just changed to led/photocell optoisolators)

As long as i do not let the Soliton spin the motor, it all works as expected, but as soon as the Soliton start to give the EM some current, all the LEDs start glow, and they glow brighter the more current the EM gets. (exept the green that should be light fully)

If i disconnect the wire to the error LEDs in the dash, the two remaining red ones glow when spinning the motor.

If i instead disconnect all 3 batt bridge diodes in the dash, the error LEDs glow when spinning the motor.

Right now my head is spinning, i even do no longer remember everything i tried to locate the problem. Any ideas?


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

Try wiring 1uF capacitors across each LED.... that should solve the problem whether it is induced voltage (from the EU-mandated RFI filter that Rebbl installs inside the controller) or induced current, from routing the traction battery cables too close to the dashboard wiring.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Tesseract said:


> Try wiring 1uF capacitors across each LED.... that should solve the problem whether it is induced voltage (from the EU-mandated RFI filter that Rebbl installs inside the controller) or induced current, from routing the traction battery cables too close to the dashboard wiring.


Thanks for reply Tess. I do not have the Rebbl modified controller anymore, i have one directly from you.

I will try your suggestion with a cap across the LEDs, if have any at 1uF or close.

One of my meters can measure Hz, and i get a varying frequency between the error cable from the Soliton and ground. I get frequencies from 30 to 150 Hz when reving the motor a little. I suppose the Soliton works at a decent stable freq. so i am leaning towards that my problem comes from the motor itself. But i really do not understand it yet, in my mind i cannot see the circuit the electrons are taking in this case. Though i understand that this has to be a small traction pack leak circuit since it seemingly corresponds to motor amps.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Just tried throwing caps at my problem. I did not have 1uF, but i had three 100uF that i put in series (33.3uF). I know, that is still quite far away from 1uF. This test made things even worse, the LED i tried it on glowed even more.

Ohh, forgot. When the caps was put across the LED and the motor standing still, i could see a _very_ faint blink in the LED, corresponding with the green blink LED on the Soliton. Without the caps no such blink. I did this with one of the red LEDs connected to the Batt.Bridge


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

steelneck said:


> ...One of my meters can measure Hz, and i get a varying frequency between the error cable from the Soliton and ground. I get frequencies from 30 to 150 Hz when reving the motor a little.....


The Soliton switches at 8000Hz (or 14000Hz); if you are measuring a frequency of 30-150Hz that increases with motor RPM that strongly suggests you are using an alternator to keep the 12V battery charged, and that one of its internal diodes has gone bad.

You might want to measure how much *AC* voltage is in the 12V supply.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

steelneck said:


> Just tried throwing caps at my problem. I did not have 1uF, but i had three 100uF that i put in series (33.3uF). I know, that is still quite far away from 1uF. This test made things even worse, the LED i tried it on glowed even more....


I can think of no scenario where the caps across the LED would make things worse... sorry, you've exhausted my capability to diagnose weird automotive electrical problems from afar.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update on my problem. Just tried to put one 220uF 50V cap across one of the LEDs, now things got a lot better. But i really do not understand it. 33uF made things worse and 220uF made it better. As i understand it 33uF at say 100Hz is around 1.5k ohm and 220uF is about 7ohm. Could it be that i have interference on different frequencies that even counteracts each other and the 220uF cap take care of the stronger one, leaving the weak one that hardly can be noticed?



Tesseract said:


> if you are measuring a frequency of 30-150Hz that increases with motor RPM that strongly suggests you are using an alternator to keep the 12V battery charged, and that one of its internal diodes has gone bad.
> 
> You might want to measure how much *AC* voltage is in the 12V supply.


Yes, i am using an old alternator, it is probably very old, could be as old as the car, 37 years (!). It works, but you may be right that a diode in it is bad, but i have not seen any parasitic load draining the aux. battery, something that usually happens when alternator diodes go bad. I will check this. One of my first thoughts was based on the fact that i had not connected the alternator warning lamp, this old alternator require a lamp of a some wattage through which it energizes the field to start charging. But it made no diff. to the problem when connecting it. First thing i will try is to disconnect the alternator altogether.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

More on my problem.

Disconnected the alternator and used only the aux battery, no difference. Checked the old Bosch alternator while i was at it, it was healthy, diodes good and no other problems with it. Quite amazing actually, it is probably as old as the car and have been used all year round in every kind of weather for almost 40 years! That kind of reliability is something i wish for a DC/DC.

I decided to put those 220uF caps across each diode, since those did take care of the visible part of the problem.

Been struggling with this problem for three days now :-( 
I start to understand why automakers have avoided LEDs for so long.. 

Tried to measure if there was some AC voltage in the 12V system. I have two multimeters, one said 0 volt AC, the other said 18 volt?? Stopped the motor, but kept ignition and thus the Soliton on, same result (within some 1/10 of a volt).. Somehow i do not trust that meter telling me there is 18V AC, it is of the kind that constantly show some random numbers when not connected to anything, bought it because it had a clamp ammeter.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Yet another problem.

*I was expecticng to have the car ready for inspection to get it road legal this summer, that is now coming to and end. I was able to drive the car two months ago, but problems are gathering. First i had an unacceptable isolation fault with the Rebbl modified version of the Soliton controller, setting me back at least two weeks, now i have an unmodified Soliton. Then came the problem of the glowing LEDs, at least temporarily solved with some caps, a solution that feels like a dirty hack since i have not figured out the root of the problem and make a proper solution. This robbed me of days and a bit of nights.

Now i stumbled on next problem. I cannot get the Fuel Gauge Driver Plus (FGD) to work with my fuel gauge. First the programmable fuel gauge from speedhut either sat on full or empty depending on setting, it did not react what so ever trying to adjust the FGD. Contacted ZEVA and got a reply that gauges like this sometimes need some real resistance between them and the FGD. Tried that and the only thing that happened was that the gauge was sitting at 1/2 or 3/4, still not reacting to any adjustment on the FGD. 

Fuel gauges expect varying resistance to ground from the tank sender. So, i mesured resistance to ground on the wire that comes from the FGD, my meter just fleckered error like every second. Changed it to measure volts.. Yes, the FGD sends out pulsating voltage, around 1.5Hz on the wire that is supposed to be varying resistance to ground. I cannot see how this ever could work with my meter. So the FGD is probably a brick going to the trash bin. Has anyone got the FGD to actually work, or is this a scam?

Now looking at other solutions. The EV-display looks promising. But a change to that means to rewire a lot of things and to rebuild my instrument panel again. Maybe weeks to get hold of the EV-display and a lot of time to do the rewiring work. My holliday that i have spent in the garage to get the car finished is coming to an end.. I fear that i wont get this car finished before winter comes, and i am not so sure i even can get the car inspected wintertime since the test probably involves brake tests on dry asphalt (no such thing in the winter north of the arctic cirkle).


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

steelneck said:


> *
> Now i stumbled on next problem. I cannot get the Fuel Gauge Driver Plus (FGD) to work with my fuel gauge. First the programmable fuel gauge from speedhut either sat on full or empty depending on setting, it did not react what so ever trying to adjust the FGD. Contacted ZEVA and got a reply that gauges like this sometimes need some real resistance between them and the FGD. Tried that and the only thing that happened was that the gauge was sitting at 1/2 or 3/4, still not reacting to any adjustment on the FGD.
> 
> Fuel gauges expect varying resistance to ground from the tank sender. So, i mesured resistance to ground on the wire that comes from the FGD, my meter just fleckered error like every second. Changed it to measure volts.. Yes, the FGD sends out pulsating voltage, around 1.5Hz on the wire that is supposed to be varying resistance to ground. I cannot see how this ever could work with my meter. So the FGD is probably a brick going to the trash bin. Has anyone got the FGD to actually work, or is this a scam?
> *


*

I got the same ? about the Zeva, got one for my truck haven't messed 
with it yet but have not heard any good things about it. Mizlplix never
got his to work.

so the ? do they work or not? anybody?

Ivan*


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Never got my zeva callibrated properly. It makes the gauge work but not in any way that range is predictable


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

Oh... what are you connecting it to? Mine goes to the original sender wires rather than the gauge itself.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Now tried it with the old original gauge of the car. Powered up the dashboard, connected the FGD where the original gauge sender was connected to. Same result, the needle went to up over the top full and no adjustment on the FGD made any difference. The FGD simply does not work.



skooler said:


> Oh... what are you connecting it to? Mine goes to the original sender wires rather than the gauge itself.


Se above. With the new meter it goes directly to the meter, just as the sender wire from the original tank sender would have.

Anyone know where i can get the EV-display meter, preferably in the EU? At the CleanPower Auto store the site says they are out stock.

Too bad. My thought was to use the newly bought 10K tach as both tach and ammeter through the FGDP. With the EV-display i will get amps in that replacing the tank meter, and in that case i would have been better off with a tach going to 6K instead of 10. Send it back? With all the hassle that would mean with customs, already payed import taxes and so on.. it feels easier to just consider the money gone.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

steelneck said:


> Now tried it with the old original gauge of the car. Powered up the dashboard, connected the FGD where the original gauge sender was connected to. Same result. The FGD simply does not work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you wanting a functioning gauge just for fun, or are you planning on relying on the tank gauge as a state of charge indicator? I don't think you will get the accuracy or resolution you really need, I mean in a gas car it's fine since you still have roughly 50 miles left when you hit empty. In an EV when 50 miles is your full starting point, it's another deal. You need a pretty good gauge for that.

I rely on my odometer mostly (because my car is pretty consistent on it's range, so I much know how far I can go) and an AH counter when I am not sure what my mileage is (forgot to reset it, or did a partial charge) or think I'll be taking it down pretty low. I don't have a full time AH meter on my dash, but use EVDisplay (the bluetooth version from emotorwerks.com) on my phone on the dashboard when I want to see it.

I wouldn't rely on an analog 'fuel gauge' to really tell you where your cells are at.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

dladd said:


> and an AH counter when I am not sure what my mileage is (forgot to reset it, or did a partial charge) or think I'll be taking it down pretty low.


The FGD _is_ an Ah counter, just as the EV-Display. Though i think the EV-Display is a much better solution, especially since my FGD do not work at all.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

JLD404 from lightobject?


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Steel why don't you just use a pack voltmeter and speedo trip meter to monitor your range. Cant see you getting any kind of accuracy from a gimmicky fuel gauge. They wernt accurate when they were measuring fuel level in the tank.
If you want to be really pro, get a BMS screen that shows you individual cell voltage in a bar graph.
Some things you just have to leave behind.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

skooler said:


> JLD404 from lightobject?


Maybe in worst case. I have already rebuilt (destroyed) the original dasboard of the car to take the meters that i have. The EV-display do fit in the same hole as the current newly bough programmable tank meter that was supposed to be driven by the FGD amp counter. 

Do the JLD404 have memory or does it loose everything if power get cut? (like when working on the car)


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> They wernt accurate when they were measuring fuel level in the tank.


I would be quite happy with that kind of accuracy, of course together with both voltmeter and odometer. It is way more accurate than only volts and km that you suggest. And without some kind of "tank meter" _indicating_ avail. energy i would never be able to get the car street legal.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

steelneck said:


> The FGD _is_ an Ah counter, just as the EV-Display. Though i think the EV-Display is a much better solution, especially since my FGD do not work at all.


yes it is, but what I mean is that no matter how accurate the input is into the stock fuel gauge, it just doesn't have the resolution you need (it would be hard to tell within probably 20ah of where it is, right?). The EVDisplay (or JLD) give you a digital readout of how many amp hours you have left. 

If I could only have one gauge, it would without a doubt be the digital AH counter.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

dladd said:


> yes it is, but what I mean is that no matter how accurate the input is into the stock fuel gauge, it just doesn't have the resolution you need (it would be hard to tell within probably 20ah of where it is, right?). The EVDisplay (or JLD) give you a digital readout of how many amp hours you have left.


Yes, the digital version with actual numbers is more exact, i wish i had bought the EV-display to begin with. But lets face it, we have driven cars for a lot of decades with fuel gauges that hardly is exact, but with a little experience of the tank meter in question and sometimes with the help of the odometer we somehow manage to not go out of gas, that goes also for most young drivers with a shaky income who many times cannot afford full tank, very often leaving them with something like EV range. 

The tank meter is actually considered to be the second most important meter, after the spedometer, in a veihcle to be considered roadworthy. Just imagine someone driving the car and do not know it's SoC, it could just as well be your self. Right now when sitting here, i cannot remember how long ago it was since i filled up my ICE car and i do not know how many km it has gone since then. Without the the very unprecise tank meter we all would tun out of gas every now an then, on the most inappropriate places in traffic. This is the reason that some kind of "tank meter" is required to get a car road legal, at least here in Sweden.


----------



## skooler (Mar 26, 2011)

steelneck said:


> Do the JLD404 have memory or does it loose everything if power get cut? (like when working on the car)


It has a memory but I'd recommend having it always on anyway so that it measures any parasitic loads on the pack.

No problem when working on the car - If the pack is isolated then you aren't losing energy so the memory will look after things when its all reconnected.

AH counting is much more accurate than monitoring voltage however I can get a pretty good guess on remaining range based on voltage, Its not as bad as people make out.


----------



## dladd (Jun 1, 2011)

skooler said:


> It has a memory but I'd recommend having it always on anyway so that it measures any parasitic loads on the pack.


is the JLD really that accurate? That's cool, if so. I know the EVDisplay that i have is not, the hall effect sensor simply does not pick up the low current draws. I have my DCDC on 24/7 and it will eventually draw down the traction pack (in a few months), but the EVDisplay will show 100%.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have just ordered an E-Expert Pro gauge from Everything-EV. This instrument seem to have just about similar features as the JLD404 and it uses a real shunt for counting Ah. Ordered it with the attachment for higher voltages. This gauge will fit in my modified instrument panel. Now i will have a bit of rewiring to do, breaking up cable bundles that at worst have over 30 cables in them.. 

BTW. I have just tried out my heater system. It will be 20A/600V solid state relay driven by a 555 based PWM turned down to around 3Hz. Tried it on the bench with two PTC heater cores at 1500W each, works just fine. The SSR hardly even got luke warm even without cooling. In my car i got three of those heater cores. I am a bit worried that all three may stress the SSR, so i will have a switch in the relay box to chose how many of them to actually use. I think two will be just fine most of the year except when it gets really cold.


----------



## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

steelneck said:


> And without some kind of "tank meter" _indicating_ avail. energy i would never be able to get the car street legal.


Sure you would. They simply don’t have the way to check it out in testing centre. What, will they drive the car for 50 miles to see if gauge moves? Or, will they put fuel into your tank, if it shows empty? Highly unlikely. So, as long as you have any fuel gauge showing, whatever, you be all right. Nor do they check brakes on regular roads. Is it asphalt, gravel or snow. They use stationary brake testing equipment for that. Indoors. Make no difference which side of artic circle you at.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Here in Sweden the inspection is not just about driving to the "testing centre". To get a car approved that is modified as much as an EV-conversion, we have to go through an organization called the SFRO for a pre-inspection. They will look into every aspect there is, and some more. They will drive the car, not just around the block and really test it, the tests spans over a whole day and they want to check wiring diagrams and to see that those correspond to the car in reality. This organization came about to allow truly homebuilt cars, like HotRods, kit cars and so on. In those cases they will do an even earlier check when the build is half way, to check all welds in the frame and also to give advice so the builder do not have to redo any major things after their final inspection. The thing is that the official testing center want certificates from the car manufacturer, not a private person, but in the case with SFRO, they are accredited/authorized to write these certificates.

EV conversion fall in a sort of gray zone, i could just go to the official testing center, and if i have luck to get the right inspector, that actually feel he is competent to judge an EV-conversion and most importantly are prepared to take that judging responsibility, then i could have the car approved. But, when speaking to them, they say that the braking system is modified if the vacuum pump is driven by an electric motor, and thus demand certificates from the car manufacturer. I cannot, of course, get certificates from Ford for a 40 year old car that on top of that is modified. So i have to go through the SFRO and they do a really thorough inspection. But on the other, positive hand, by going through SFRO it is not necessary to have all parts with CE and EMC approval. It is fully possible to get the car street legal even with a home built motor controller, charger and so on. SFRO have the competence and do the judging on a case by case basis, and their inspection protocols function as manufacturer certificates to the official inspection authority.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Toroid protection?

*I am just am just about to install the control for my 3 cabin heater cores. It consists of a simple 555-based PWM module (run at ~3Hz) and a beefy 20A/600V solid state relay. Works fine "on the bench" connected with some test wires. Would it be advisable to put in a 100uH/20A toroid (or two 220uH/10A in parallel) before the SSR to protect it from the Soliton ripple?


----------



## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

steelneck said:


> EV conversion fall in a sort of gray zone, i could just go to the official testing center, and if i have luck to get the right inspector, that actually feel he is competent to judge an EV-conversion and most importantly are prepared to take that judging responsibility, then i could have the car approved.


Yes, this is the worst issue at EV conversion. Our SFRO is called Dekra and TUV. I'm going to sink myself in this kind of troubles in following weeks as well. I also agreed to register friends US-importer RAW4, so this will happen to me twice. It is important to read the law carefully, it actually provides lot of options to us, but we must be aware of it.


----------



## Tesseract (Sep 27, 2008)

steelneck said:


> *Toroid protection?
> 
> *I am just am just about to install the control for my 3 cabin heater cores. It consists of a simple 555-based PWM module (run at ~3Hz) and a beefy 20A/600V solid state relay. Works fine "on the bench" connected with some test wires. Would it be advisable to put in a 100uH/20A toroid (or two 220uH/10A in parallel) before the SSR to protect it from the Soliton ripple?


No, only wimpy little capacitors in DC/DC converters and chargers need protection from a motor controller's reflected ripple; your SSR and heater loads couldn't care less.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Tesseract said:


> No, only wimpy little capacitors in DC/DC converters and chargers need protection from a motor controller's reflected ripple; your SSR and heater loads couldn't care less.


Thank you. It was the SSR i thought could need some protection (it was expensive!). 

All things regarding the heater is now installed in the car. The small PWM is mounted in the instrument panel of the car with the potentiometer knob where the original heater control was. Under the hood i have a casted alu. box containing the SSR and a tree way switch allowing me to run one, two or three heater cores (around 1500 nameplate watt at -25C each). 

Tried it in my garage last night, here is some data at different fan speeds:


```
One core:

Fan    Amps     Watts
1    3,4A     830W
2    4,2A    1070W
3    4,8A    1220W

Two cores:
1    6,3A    1600W
2    7,5A    1900W
3    8,4A    2130W

Three cores:
1    9,4A      2390W
2    11,5A    2920W
3    12,7A    3220W
```
In reality these numbers will be a bit higher since PTC elements draw more power the more cooling they get. I had 17 degree C in my garage when testing, in winter temperatures i guess i will have around 4500W at max fan with all three cores. Most of the time i guess i will be fine using two cores, the air into the car felt almost as hot at 2130W as it does in normal ICE cars with the heating on max. The third will probably only be used when it is really cold.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

As i wrote earlier, i am getting an E-Xpert Pro Hv battery monitor, with a shunt. Correct me if i am wrong, as far as i know i can locate the shunt just about anywhere in the battery circuit, and it will read any current going in or out of the pack.

The manual says the shunt should be located between load/charge and minus of the pack, but in my understanding the current flow will be equal anywhere in the circuit (all my cells are in series). It would be much easier in my case if i could place the shunt between two of my battery boxes instead of placing it between the Soliton controller and the pack.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

A bit of update since i have not posted any real progress in a while. Done some test drives, tried my cabin heating (7C outside) and so on.. While doing that i discovered just how worn out my gearbox was, a lot of internal leakage, a bit of outside leak, quite some transmission sound when hot, overshoot between second and third and some slippage on second with the stick in drive (not when locked in second). I simply have to replace my gearbox. Found a rebuilt one from a Ford Mustang II (yes, they had the same C3, aka. "Bourdeaux transmission" as the the European Granada behind V6 and Pintos) and now i will install that.

I have logged some data while driving. At my first tests i drove without logging anything, at one test a hot day i drove up a long hill and did get the Soliton 1 to get hot enough to warn and switch to power mode (i got that typical ringing sound). Now at my latest tests with logging, it was way colder and nothing got especially hot. So far i think my range expectations around 100 to 150 km is about right, but i cannot say i have done any normal driving so far.

I am quite happy with performance and the driving experience overall, most things have been as expected. Did a full throttle acceleration for some seconds and saw voltage drop to 2.5V per cell, at around 1/3 SoC, quite expected. I had max amp set to 700. The car really do perform at 700A, but since the sorry state of my tranny i did this very close to home..


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update since last post. I have now replaced my gearbox with a rebuilt one from a Ford Mustang II, yes they did have the same C3 tranny as the European Ford Granadas, just some minor differences. Also done some more test drives. 

My range expectations around 100km or 60-70 miles seem to be correct.

Also discovered how important it is to have the tranny shift at quite high RPM. At my first test drives i did get the Solition to warn for high temp and shift from silent mode to power mode, when driving up a long hill at 100kmh. My Kostov K11 also felt very warm. Now i have the tranny to shift at 4000 RPM and all those problem are gone, i do not think i will have to connect the water cooling to the Soliton. 

I still have some adjusting to do, my gearbox have a tendency to overshoot a bit between second and third. It is a bit tricky to adjust since it has both vacuum modulator and kickdown, both regulating hydraulic pressure in their own way. Have to find out what works best while keeping RPMs high. The vacuum modulator adjust mainly the RPM and the kickdown lever mainly downshift RPM, but since i get some overshoot the pressure seem to be a bit low.

Next thing up is to install the TBS E-Xpert pro gauge, and this will require some rewiring and making room for the shunt, still waiting for some parts to have an isolated 12V supply to it (that should have been built in from the start).

Now we have autumn in this part of the world, so it start to be a bit chilly, below 10C at evenings and mornings, a couple of weeks more and we see freezing temperatures, so now i can see that my heater works fine so far. It will probably work fine when the winter comes. This was one my big headaches initially, i put a lot of thought and worries around it, but this part seem to be one of the things that just work. A very simple PWM around a 555 circuit driving a 20A/600V solid state relay.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Have now installed the TBS E-Xpert pro.










It seem to work quite nice. Some critic though, with the 10:1 prescaler it need to have an isolated 12V supply, this is something that should have been built in from the start. I connected it via an isolated 12/12V Traco Power circuit. Well now i have a working energy meter with some nice extra features.

Have been trying out my new gearbox and the energy meter. I start to feel that i would have been better off with a 2 speed powerglide gearbox, first gear in the Ford C3 tranny feel almost silly. I still have some trouble with the gearshift between second and third, it overshoots a bit, even if i go lightly on the throttle and if i suddenly step on it while in second and the stick in D, there are some slippage, but if i have the stick in second and step on it at the same speed, there are no slippage. Obviously this means it has a higher pressure with the stick in second than it has in D, i do not know how to fix this if it cannot be adjusted away with the modulator and/or the kickdown.

I have started to believe that my LYP 100Ah cells actually have more than 100Ah, a bit early to tell yet, but my first full charge after the bottom balance indicated something like 110Ah measured from the wall counting some charger inefficiency, so far the TBS E-Xpert Pro also indicate something like that.

The car seem to be able to do 0-100kph around 8 sec, maybe a bit faster, but i have not dared to go full 700A throttle all the way from standstill due to my problems with the gearbox. Locked in second it feels very quick. 

At 90kph steady speed at level road the meter says around 100A. The longest trip i have made was to log temperatures at a road going over a small mountain, with some 10km constant uphill with some curves. Nothing got excessive hot and the total trip was around 70km, i had around 15-25% left in the pack when coming home. This trip also indicated to me that my cells probably have more than 100Ah, but i did not have the meter installed when i made that trip.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Yet another setback

*As readers of this thread maybe remember, i had to replace the gearbox since it simply was worn out. Today the overhauled "new" gearbox broke down. The internal hydraulic pump make a harsh ticking sound following RPM and there is no pressure, luckily i could drive the car slowly into my garage thanks to my external electric pump. I could probably put together a working unit of my two trannys, but as it feels now i have given up on the Ford C3 tranny. I will probably go for a direct drive Powerglide with a manual valve body. A bullet proof option.

My thoughts now is if i should try to find a used one in decent shape and price to rebuild my self or get a Circletrack PG from TCI-auto, modify the bellhousing and make an adapter to the EM.


----------



## Ivansgarage (Sep 3, 2011)

Mizlplix has an adapter for sale if you decide to go the pg route. Plus he has the trany drive.

http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

Ivan


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Update.

I just got home a Powerglide with manual valve body and a direct coupler that i bought from Coan Racing.



















Now i have to rebuild my adapter plate for this new transmission, also make a new drive shaft with a Chevy 1350 U-joint in one end and the original Ford in the other.
http://www.coanracing.com


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

When i stopped to think a bit, i hardly could believe what i just did. I put a hacksaw into my new transmission that i just bought from Coan Racing..










I am cutting away the bellhousing, to replace it with a steel tube.










The transmission became a much smaller unit without the bellhousing, it will give a lot more room in the tunnel of car. The powerglide bellhousing would have been to big anyway.










The steel tube temp. mounted in its place.


----------



## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

That input shaft is awfully long


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Looks very impressive!

How is the steel tube mounted??


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Studebaker said:


> That input shaft is awfully long


It would have been nice if it was shorter, but it is std. length with the powerglide bellhousing. But on the other hand, the PG complete with bellhousing is actually 1 cm shorter than the Ford C3 transmission.



Duncan said:


> Looks very impressive!
> 
> How is the steel tube mounted??


It is mounted in the front pump bolts, they are just replaced with longer bolts. The bulges on the tube are made around the bolt heads to make room for wrench sockets. It will look about the same in the other end facing the motor, but with inward bulges so i can get to the bolts from outside.


----------



## RIPPERTON (Jan 26, 2010)

Studebaker said:


> That input shaft is awfully long


Probably designed for use with the bell housing


----------



## Studebaker (Jan 22, 2012)

Probably. No, what I meant that’s a direct drive version, with extended input shaft. I think if steelneck knew that the bell housing is going to be chopped off, he would have gone for torque converter version 










But we can’t know everything, can we? Thou, it looks like you can…


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

RIPPERTON said:


> Probably designed for use with the bell housing


Yes, the "direct coupler" is designed to be used with the bellhousing, it extends the length of the std. input shaft (it could be used with a TC too).


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

The car is now running again. The Powerglide gearbox seem to be working fine, got some small vibrations in the drive shaft, but not more than it can be balanced away. All city driving can be done in first gear up to around 65 kmh. 

Have been able to test the car in -15C. At my first test the vacuum switch gave up, it looks like it did not like freezing temperatures. Have replaced with another and now the brakes do work nice. Now i have both a 1 liter vacuum reservoir and the relay i made with a bit of hysteresis (described earlier in the thread). 

The cabin heater also seem to be working nice, it will be interesting to see how it behaves when it gets really cold. The range penalty seem to be a bit less than i expected, even with the heater on max.

So far my batteries seem to behave in the cold, but i have not done enough testing to really tell so far.


----------



## epyon (Mar 20, 2008)

What is the amp draw off the line and on hills and take off on hills ?


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

epyon said:


> What is the amp draw off the line and on hills and take off on hills ?


It depends on how hard i want accelerate of course, so your question is impossible to answer. It can be anything from under 100A up to 1000A.

Have now tried it with cold batteries. Left the car outside over night, maybe -10 to -15C at night. During the day it was around -7C. If i want to draw around 200A i have to accept voltages under 2.5V per cell, so my thoughts about a bottom balanced pack feels right.


----------



## mira9_cz (Feb 27, 2013)

steelneck said:


> If i want to draw around 200A i have to accept voltages under 2.5V per cell, so my thoughts about a bottom balanced pack feels right.


Well in my opinion the bottom balancing gives you an advantage in last few percents of the capacity, those few percents, that you should not even use to keep your cells long life, but the time will show what method of keeping cells balanced was the best. 

Anyway few days ago I saw interesting graph at Sinopoly official materials. I extracted it from the presentation to you, please see it below. 2.5V suddenly does not sound so bad, but still it feels not right to do so to my LiFePo4 










I just remembered that I also did some tests on my own for GWL Company. They did not presented it yet. In this document I discharged Winson 90 cells in fridge up to 0.7C. Cells getting warmer and voltage rising with load can be observed at the graphs.


----------



## Yabert (Feb 7, 2010)

steelneck said:


> the day it was around *-7C.* If i want to draw around *200A* i have to accept voltages under *2.5V per cell*.


Useful information! Thanks for sharing. 
So, those ''supposedtobebetterinthecold'' lithium/yttrium cells aren't really better than others LifePO4 cells at sub-zero temperature.

Do you monitor the temperature when you heat your battery pack?
If yes, at what kind of temperature the cells start to perform correctly (no excessive voltage drop under load)?
Thanks


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

Yabert said:


> Useful information! Thanks for sharing.
> So, those ''supposedtobebetterinthecold'' lithium/yttrium cells aren't really better than others LifePO4 cells at sub-zero temperature.


I think the advantage, rather than performance lies in that they can be charged in sub-zero temps.



> Do you monitor the temperature when you heat your battery pack?


Not yet, i have had a lot of other things beside my electric car to take care of.


----------



## steelneck (Apr 19, 2013)

*Finally street legal!

*Yes, now i have passed all the Swedish inspections, the car is street legal with the Kostov K11, a powerglide gearbox and an unmodified Soliton 1 controller.


----------



## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Congratulations


----------

