# Full hybrid with 4wd donor to 2 seperate motors = 1 system per axle



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

When one system is in operation, it will be encumbered with the weight of the other. This means that both systems will be less efficient at all times.


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

It will mean that I can drive around 70% to 80% without CO2 spill since I do have green electricity at home.
The only important argument for me...


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## PStechPaul (May 1, 2012)

I have been considering this idea for a long time. The electric drive could be used for stop-and-go city and rush hour driving, and the ICE could be used where it performs best, at steady highway speeds. And the electric drive would function as an emergency backup system in case of ICE failure. Also, both systems could be operated together to provide 4WD when needed. But the problem is getting an electric drive to the rear wheels capable of enough torque at low speed as well as being able to run at full highway speed. You need a very large motor, or an auxiliary transmission, or a clutch to disengage the electric drive at high speed.

See: http://www.pstech-inc.com/SHAMPAC.htm


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

Heyho Paul, thank you for your answer.

My goal wasnt highway speed with the e-drive, it was to accomplish the dayly stuff with it. Kids fetching off, grocery´s - slow speed, close distances.
e-drive top speed: ~70km/h
distance with one charge: 50 to 100 km
I would switch off the e-drive while ICE using. If you use both together, you get problems here in Germany - the car is stronger than before (as in the papers) and therefore you might need stronger brakes and stuff.
I would not want to change wheels and brakes and stuff. You get problems to get the car legalized for public traffic.
To just add an alternative and weaker power source and proove that it can NOT add up to the ICE power would be easier to get legalized.
To get the car to a speed up to 70km/h would be enough to get the kids and the everyday stuff done.
I imagine a ~ 15 kw e-motor would do it maybe...
???


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Same project I am planning Logan. I think I mentioned it in your other thread. 
I will limit my vehicle to the EV top speed, but this is still 90mph! About 140kph. The key is a high speed AC motor. I have some from Azure's liquidation. I also have large wheels on my SUV which allow such high speed. On an average car this sped would be about 75-80mph or 120kph. Still plenty. 
What Paul was saying is unless the EV drive can operate at your full desired speed range you must be able to disconnect it when not in use. This is tricky and requires a transmission of some sort. 
For your donor, as lovely as a Subaru is, and I'd love to convert one myself, I advise a vehicle which was available in 2wd and 4wd, and you can use the oe 2wd up front and the EV in the rear. I am using a Toyota Rav4. A Volvo, some Toyotas and most Japanese cars came in 4wd at least in Japan so are options. The SUV has lots of space though, for occupants and for batteries underneath. 

What budget do you have? What vehicle are you thinking to use? What sort of driving will the vehicle be used for? What portion of that do you want to be EV? (you answered that, I know) 

Answer these goals and we can advise more specifically. I plan to use ICE and EV together as a hybrid with simply a control box translating the throttle signal to the appropriate values for each drive.


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

Hy tylerwatts
Thank you for your answer!
I still gather input for my project. My very first thoughts where about givin an example to proove makeability (correct term?) but had to discover, that my idea isnt new at all, but it is old. And that its not as easy as I believed it would be. I thought I would be the smart guy you know!

So my thought where wandering around the subject how to get a REAL hybrid just for MY needs. A hybrid with the feature to change the drive with just a switch from fossil fuel to e-drive or vice versa.
My motivation: Environment and co2.

My situation at home:
We already do use two cars right now.
1. Toyota Prius:
The company owned car my wife is allowed to use also privately is a
Toyota Prius. No chance for us to buy it used, because in Germany the employer gets problems selling company stuff cheaper to their employees (tax issue and social security issue).
2. Dacia Logan MCV
Our own private car. It did cost bit more than 13.000 EURO in 2010. Fine car for my taste (yes, its no VW or Mercedes in quality, but the first 70.000 km went by without ANY issue). 
BUT the Logan is thirsty! Just has 86 hp but needs more than 8 litres for 100km. TOO much for the everyday stuff. I still want to keep it because of 5 seats and roomy. And right now I need it every day. Too much co2 for my taste.

My needs for the hybrid are:
- solution for the small everyday usage - grocery, school fetching, veterinarian (for the dog)
- two seats (often have to take my boy or my dog with me)
- two different drives (independance and reliability)
- the two drives MUST NOT work together (legal issues)
- enough room for the passengers and freight
- weatherproof (right term?) - meaning a roof and a door and heating
- faster than 50 kph
- farther than 50 km per charge with the e-drive
- easy convertibility into a hybrid
- CHEAP (my wife you know...)

So I do NOT need any big solution. Or a very strong solution.
Just something with a motor to get around with my stuff.

My newest idea:
A Piaggio APE TM Diesel (I know, the diesels are just pickups)
YES a three wheeler! 
If it is possible to exchange the sole front wheel (similar to the e-bikes), this would be MUCH easier than to seperate the front and rear axle of a 4wd and get an e-motor in between. The APE does have the power at the aft axle, so it would make sense to power the front wheel with a wheelhub e-motor.

http://piaggioape.co.uk/tm_panelvan.html

And the APE is a lightweight. With a big loading percentage.
Empty 465kg, payload ~700kg
http://piaggioape.co.uk/downloads/Ape TM Panel.pdf


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

That is a possibility. But it would be best going all electric. Can you do this easier in Germany? 
Why not convert the Dacia? An idea I've had for ages is to turn the stock beam axle of a fwd car into a de Dion setup with motor mounted between the wheels behind the beam and modifying the hubs to drive hubs. Some cars used modular hubs, Ford Sierra is first to mind, and could bolt on with a lower power EV drive for hybrid/dual drive vehicle.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

There are many drive systems available from Chinese companies that are inexpensive and work well. Problem with a hybrid in your Dacia is space for batteries. Decide if you need both EV and hybrid/ICE


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## JosephJonathanGould (Oct 27, 2013)

Hi,

I think it is a good idea to do this for experience; prove out a rear wheel drive system before committing to one or the other. I think that you could save some time and effort by using a light FWD vehicle with good mileage stats to start and adding 2 hub motors to replace the back wheel axel/bearing housings. Only need to build mounting adaptor blocks to bolt into place of the existing rear wheel bearing/axel mounts.


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## Logan (Sep 28, 2013)

I cant converse a vehicle by myself
- no garage
- basement minishop
- no allowance to work on public traffic vehicles

And I cant converse the Logan because like I wrote, I need the Logan EVERY DAY. I would need months for the switch.

And I need a mature (correct term?) vehicle.
A vehicle with just 50 to 80 miles range is no vehicle. Its a toy! No way enough for my whole needs. But good enough for 80% of my needs.

I visited Monkton in England in November 2012. Over 700 miles to go one way. Did that in 12 hours in each direction. Cant do this with an EV.
We went to holidays in north Italy in spring 2013 with 400 miles in a few hours - cant do that with an EV.

Like I wrote, I want to keep the Logan for power use and looooong distances. I do not want to loose this oportunity.


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## tylerwatts (Feb 9, 2012)

Ok so the Prius is not a long term vehicle. I'll post in the other thread.


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