# What heating system do you use?



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

Most EVs have heat but fuel fired heaters are pretty rare in EVs. I would guess that ceramic heaters, in place of the original heater core, are most common. Hot water systems, using a heater element in a small tank and a pump to run the motor through the stock heater core, are often used.

Edited to add: My EV in the avatar does not have a heater


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## cast (Mar 30, 2010)

It seems that people don't like fuel fired heating in the EVs. 
But fuel fired heating actually can save more energy than the electric heating. This means less emission with fuel fired heating. Of course heat pump in the mild climate is also a good solution.

Without fuel fired heating, a lot of people from northern states will be very disappointed at the EVs in the winter.





EVfun said:


> Most EVs have heat but fuel fired heaters are pretty rare in EVs. I would guess that ceramic heaters, in place of the original heater core, are most common. Hot water systems, using a heater element in a small tank and a pump to run the motor through the stock heater core, are often used.
> 
> Edited to add: My EV in the avatar does not have a heater


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

cast said:


> Without fuel fired heating, a lot of people from northern states will be very disappointed at the EVs in the winter.


Using two ceramic heater cores (1500 watts each) for heat would put out at least as much heat as original ICE heater... I use one core, and it is 'warm', but not 'hot'; planning to add a second core to keep the wife happy.


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## tomofreno (Mar 3, 2009)

> Using two ceramic heater cores (1500 watts each) for heat would put out at least as much heat as original ICE heater


 I think ICE heaters are much higher power than that. I think Tesseract said something like 9 - 10 kW. A simple estimate assuming 100% efficiency for heat transfer from the heater core to air, using air density and specific heat shows you need much more than 3kW to heat air at 400 cfm (high blower speed) up from say 0 F to 70 F. It comes out to about 240W/1.8F at 400 cfm, half that at 200 cfm blower speed. So 9333W at 400 cfm, 4667W at 200 cfm heating from 0 to 70F. A 3kW heater would give about a 45 F temperature increase at 200 cfm. Ok if the air starts at 20F or above, not so good if it starts at -30F - you get toasty 15F air blowing on your feet.

If you can leave the car in a garage that is warmer than outside, you can recirculate and heat the inside air so not as much heating is required. Better yet, pre-heat the car interior with a portable heater plugged into house AC and recirculate/heat that.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2010)

A nice warm coat and undergarments work wonders. Gloves and hat are required. 

Pete


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

cast said:


> It seems that people don't like fuel fired heating in the EVs.
> But fuel fired heating actually can save more energy than the electric heating. This means less emission with fuel fired heating. Of course heat pump in the mild climate is also a good solution.
> 
> Without fuel fired heating, a lot of people from northern states will be very disappointed at the EVs in the winter.


We are home converters trying to work within an existing ICE framework (for the most part.) Our common heating solutions are based on our original heater systems. More complete solutions are possible. The EV-1 from GM used a heat pump system with system that was capable of heating, cooling, dehumidification, and blending of outside and recirculated air. It was also able to pre-condition the cabin so you got into a comfortable car any time of year (and use wall power to do it when plugged in.) 

A fuel fired heating system is possible, but more costly and installing it will require more rework than reusing what is already there. Ceramic heating systems also have the advantage of 'instant' heat, a distinct improvement over stock ICE heating systems (though some have limited electric assist.) I built a VW Pickup EV with duel ceramic heaters. 3000 watts in the small cab was to much for western Washington. Still, it only ran the power use from 135 amps to 160 amps at freeway speeds, not a huge range penalty.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

cast said:


> I live in NH, almost 6 months winter here. A fuel fire heating system will make more sense and more efficient.


Most people choose the ceramic core heaters because they are the least expensive, give instant heat, and fairly easy to install and power up from the main battery pack. The cores can be stuck in the original core area, or slipped into the heater fan duct in many cases avoiding any under-the-dash work....

There ARE pre-packaged fluid circulation heaters using higher wattage elements and circulating fluid through the original core. Certainly elegant, but more expensive, take more space, and more involved installation. In many cases there is not room under the hood for the extra components.

I would stay away from any fuel 'fire' system in an enclosed vehicle cabin, and especially in a moving vehicle. propane, kerosene and heaters like that are intended to be used in stationary RVs and such with decent ventilation usually.


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## DONEAL (Sep 10, 2008)

I installed a ceramic heater, but wouldn’t do it again, It just don’t work for me, does suck a bunch of amps. I will be replacing it with liquid type. I saved my heater core and will just put it back in.


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## sjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Mine isn't done yet, but here's an article on bench testing ceramic heater cores that indicates they should work fine in NH.

The 160F delta seems sufficient. That was drawing 16.9 amps off of a 144V pack.


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## subevo (Aug 23, 2008)

i have just fitted an ESPARCHER heater which is diesel powered comercial truck heater.,excellant heat and sips fuel.best mod ive done yet.bought off ebay for £400 although can be had for much cheaper.new ones are £1500.car now sounds let a jet engine.i need a silencer which are available.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

cast said:


> It seems that people don't like fuel fired heating in the EVs.
> But fuel fired heating actually can save more energy than the electric heating. This means less emission with fuel fired heating.


I'd like to know how you reached this conclusion. You think a small fuel burner is going to produce fewer emissions than whatever energy you get from the grid? No way. Not to mention carrying liquid fuel makes your EV inherently less safe.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I'd like to know how you reached this conclusion. You think a small fuel burner is going to produce fewer emissions than whatever energy you get from the grid? No way. Not to mention carrying liquid fuel makes your EV inherently less safe.


grid power is 40% at best ,fuel heaters are 80% or better, the most eff. use of fuel is for heating . if co2 is the big emission then its 2X better or more . diesel watts / gal =39,000 watts , more power then most ev battery packs. forced air diesel heater run about as clean as turbine engines . ps I spend a lot of time in my ice car just trying to stay worm and dry as I work outside . running the engine just for the heater is bad environmentally , I think we all do it . unlimited heat in a ev or ice would be great luxury, I would spend a lot more time in my car just hanging out with laptop , radio , food , nap , make that a long nap . I would like the electric heat and the fuel heater , then pick whats best for the circumstances


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

You assume some things that may not be true. It depends where you are and what is used to generate your power. Combined cycle gas plants are closer to 60%, plus hydro is emission free, not to mention wind and solar. Additionally, CO2 is not the only emission from a fuel heater, I doubt there are any pollution controls or catalytic converters on them.
Then you have emissions from evaporating fuel, plus the energy used to refine it, transport it, and pump it.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> You assume some things that may not be true. It depends where you are and what is used to generate your power. Combined cycle gas plants are closer to 60%, plus hydro is emission free, not to mention wind and solar. Additionally, CO2 is not the only emission from a fuel heater, I doubt there are any pollution controls or catalytic converters on them.
> Then you have emissions from evaporating fuel, plus the energy used to refine it, transport it, and pump it.


 I'm off grid use solar panels and plain much more , when we get batteries that can store another magnitude of energy,then being a purest will be practicable . At this point in my energy world that fuel heater is very eff. and cleaner then the present grid ,if charge state allows use the electric. The present grid system has many systems to run threw . fuel transport , power generation , transmission losses ( mainly hysteresis's that can exceed 50% ) , charging batteries . there is very little to be gained from adding cats to these heaters .


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

aeroscott said:


> The present grid system has many systems to run threw . fuel transport , power generation , transmission losses ( mainly hysteresis's that can exceed 50% ) , charging batteries .


As does the present fossil fuel delivery system. You need to take into account the electricity used to refine your fuel, as well as all the emissions along the way from the well to your heater. I honestly don't know the answer but a true "well to wheels" comparison of emissions of all kinds for both your fuel heater and an average grid powered electric heater would be interesting.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> a true "well to wheels" comparison of emissions of all kinds for both your fuel heater and an average grid powered electric heater would be interesting.


interesting, but moot. The important thing is safety. Burning anything inside a closed cabin is just not smart. My bet is 2 ceramic cores is more than enough to get a small car plenty toasty anywhere but Siberia.


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## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

aeroscott said:


> I'm off grid use solar panels and plain much more , when we get batteries that can store another magnitude of energy,then being a purest will be practicable . At this point in my energy world that fuel heater is very eff. and cleaner then the present grid ,if charge state allows use the electric. The present grid system has many systems to run threw . fuel transport , power generation , transmission losses ( mainly hysteresis's that can exceed 50% ) , charging batteries . there is very little to be gained from adding cats to these heaters .


US electrical grid losses are perhaps 10%. I don't know where this recurring myth that half the power is lost in transmission comes from, but I will go with the Department of Energy numbers.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

dtbaker said:


> interesting, but moot. The important thing is safety. Burning anything inside a closed cabin is just not smart. My bet is 2 ceramic cores is more than enough to get a small car plenty toasty anywhere but Siberia.


I assume combustion takes place outside the cabin and a heat exchanger is used.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> I assume combustion takes place outside the cabin and a heat exchanger is used.


I try not to assume anything when it comes to cases like this.  But for the sake of arguement; having a heat exchanger in the picture certainly affects efficiency. Electric heat is pretty close to 100% efficient, and heat exchangers are NOT. Any source burning something has a significant amount of heat go out the exhaust vent.....


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Just thought I would throw a tidbit in. I am just testing/refining my fluid heater. I tried it on 120VAC (design power) .. it was very slow to heat up and I was pretty disappointed. I recently tried it on my pack voltage (192 nominal) WOW! Pack was sitting at about 205 volts and when I turned it on, heat was almost instant and it got so hot I shut it down after only a few minutes. I must chech the thermostat before trying again. (yes it is running on low voltage) I was quite surprised. It is both faster and hotter (advanced "hand test" method..lol) than any ICE heater I recall. The higher DC voltage makes a significant difference.


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## aeroscott (Jan 5, 2008)

DIYguy said:


> Just thought I would throw a tidbit in. I am just testing/refining my fluid heater. I tried it on 120VAC (design power) .. it was very slow to heat up and I was pretty disappointed. I recently tried it on my pack voltage (192 nominal) WOW! Pack was sitting at about 205 volts and when I turned it on, heat was almost instant and it got so hot I shut it down after only a few minutes. I must chech the thermostat before trying again. (yes it is running on low voltage) I was quite surprised. It is both faster and hotter (advanced "hand test" method..lol) than any ICE heater I recall. The higher DC voltage makes a significant difference.


 I've scronged a couple of these units from big trucks , I love fast heat . I thought they would kick , on over voltage dc . thanks for the comfimation . The most important time is 4am winter starts running late and no heat for defrost . One morning I ran onto a telephone pole laying next to the drive way . Made me feel stupid , no real damage .


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## willitwork (Apr 9, 2008)

I used the RM-4 heater. I got it from metric mind
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/heating.htm

It was expensive, but it works great. I had built my own using the antifeeze overflow and an electric water heater element, but that threw off a 'ton of heat' and I didnt like it. The ceramic solution would not work for me as the steps to remove the heater core for a Ford ranger was next to impossible (dash, steering needed to be removed).
I think if you search for my posts, I described my heater problems.


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