# [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I just want to let everyone know about an issue I'm having with my Headway 
Batteries. After 6 months of storage here in my South Florida garage, most 
of the cells are showing an alarming amount of rust on the positive 
terminals. The cells still have a good charge and spot testing has shown 
them to meet discharge specifications, unfortunatley the rust is now making 
it's way to the contact area and will need to be remedied before they can be 
used in a vehical.

Any idea's for would be appreciated.

Here are some pictures:
http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/

I'll post more if there is any interest.

Charlie 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 21 Feb 2010 at 9:59, Matrixel wrote:
> 
> > Here are some pictures:
> > http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Your website says you have 16, 32-cell packs and each was
arranged as 8P2S but that should be 8P4S as the pictures also show.

Bummer to see the tops corrode so fast.
In the single cell pic I see an opening in the top,
is it rusted through or is that a vent opening?

Either the metal of + and - is different, or these cells
leak something at the + terminal that is eating away at
the iron of the + contact.
I would expect anything that is outside exposed to be
at least somewhat weather resistant, not untreated iron...
You can hardly expect yrou customers to start painting
and treating them with rust-o-leum or something like that?

Success dealing with Headway... Their true color will show now.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Matrixel
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:30 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue

I just want to let everyone know about an issue I'm having with my
Headway Batteries. After 6 months of storage here in my South Florida
garage, most of the cells are showing an alarming amount of rust on the
positive terminals. The cells still have a good charge and spot testing
has shown them to meet discharge specifications, unfortunatley the rust
is now making it's way to the contact area and will need to be remedied
before they can be used in a vehical.

Any idea's for would be appreciated.

Here are some pictures:
http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/

I'll post more if there is any interest.

Charlie 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

FYI I have had two headway cells in my shop for over a year now. No 
sign of rust at all. I think your environment is causing this to 
happen. They must be getting wet with condensation on occasion. Do 
you live near the ocean?




> [email protected] wrote:
> 
> >
> > There are different grades of stainless steel and the lower grades of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Rust, we always see it in Florida, especially if you live at the edge of a
swamp like I do.
However if you don't wait until the steel has completely crumbled into rust
flakes , so it is just brown and fairly smooth, there is a great class of
products to remove the rust and not precipitate an insulating coating one is
not seeking on an electrical connection.(I don't use "Naval Jelly") Go to
your local GUN SHOP, and get bluing and rust remover. it is a clear liquid
and devolves the rust so it and the liquid residue can be just wiped away.
(Follow directions on the bottle.) I spread it on with a "Q-TIP" or an
artists brush. As a fairly long term protectant, I use "Kiwi brand Mink
Oil" Neutral boot wax product. It lasts for a year or two even on things you
handle, I use it on the outside of my shotgun. it stops sweaty fingerprints
from showing up as brown ovals...
On electrical connections , especially on aluminum to copper split bolt
splices I used Vasoline and had no corrosion after 16 years in a plastic box
with a screwed on gasketed lid mounted outside in the weather. at my last
house. Hopefully my success can guide you ...
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Jeff Shanab <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > There are different grades of stainless steel and the lower grades of
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Its got a LOT to do with the moisture content and salinity of the air. If
you're near the coast, things rust a ton. I got a motorcycle from there, it
had been sitting for like 5 years. It was put away clean, but the air rusted
the tank through, rusted linkages and seized the throttle and choke cables.
It was stored in a garage about 10 miles inland.

I wouldn't leave any of these cells open air for the most part. Cells like
Headway, A123, Lifebatt, PSI, BMI, etc, seem to need an enclosure.




> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Rust, we always see it in Florida, especially if you live at the edge of a
> > swamp like I do.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Sorry Travis,
I cannot agree with that comment. I have been in Florida , Mass, N.Y.,
Calif.,and Oregon. the cars that were rusted were always from snow states.
The road salt deposited on the highways and streets caused far more rusting
than the ocean. If you live in a SNOW state, there is salt deposited on the
roadways at every snowfall for nine or ten months out of the year. In Mass,
or Corrupticut, or N.J. or N.Y. a car rusts away in the fenders and running
board in three years or less. Same thing in Pa., Ohio. Ind, Michigan, and
all thru the snow belt. BUT, in Central and South Florida , and along the
coast in Calif. and Oregon, you see lots of 10 and 12 and older cars with no
body rusted thru holes. We don't drive in the water at the beach, not even
at Daytona, and certainly not every day for 9 or 10 months each year. Salt
is not a gas in air, sodium chloride is not a gas and neither is
calcium chloride.The ocean smell contains no salt.. Spray only reaches a few
hundred feet in shore even in a gale. Your motorcycle was rusted because it
was stored ten miles from the ocean. Perhaps what they mean by put away
clean included a pressure washing with detergent and no protective oil
coating restored on the linkages and other stuff which isn't painted so it
rusted.
Travis, if you ever want an older vehicle that has little rust to restore,
go to an area with little snow like Eugene, Oregon, Or South California, Or
Central and Southern Florida. All the cars are nearly rust free. I am
telling you the truth here. I have lived in all those places and here in the
Tampa Bay Area now and I have a 2001 and a 1996 vehicle and neither has any
rust. and that is original paint too. You are of course correct about the
cells needing an enclosure but that is partly for safety and to contain them
securely in event of an accident and to keep them warm in cold climates. Oh'
a friend once mentioned to me that Iron goes not rust under the sea, that is
why we still have intact ships in Pearl Harbor about 70 years after they
were Sunk in salt water. Like. the USS ARIZONA.
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Travis Gintz <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Its got a LOT to do with the moisture content and salinity of the air. If
> > you're near the coast, things rust a ton. I got a motorcycle from there, it
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If you live in a SNOW state, there is salt deposited on the
> > roadways at every snowfall for nine or ten months out of the year.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Zeke, You are quite correct. Perhaps it all designed to force us to replace
our cars more often? LOL -)) Sorry, this is getting off topic from
finding gliders with less rusted structures to convert, (Look in NON-SNOW
areas for more and older rust free gliders...)
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.EVTechnicalinstitute.COM
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


> Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Maybe this has been discussed, but what type Headways are these.
The "S" or the "P" models ?
I assume they're not the "L", since they have tabs.


Thanks;
Dennis 
Elsberry, MO 
http://www.evalbum.com/1366 





-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Miles [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 3:51 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue

Zeke, You are quite correct. Perhaps it all designed to force us to
replace our cars more often? LOL -)) Sorry, this is getting off
topic from finding gliders with less rusted structures to convert, (Look
in NON-SNOW areas for more and older rust free gliders...) Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.EVTechnicalinstitute.COM
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
EV service mechs need training!
We want them to REALLY UNDERSTAND: EV Systems, Operation and Technology
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]>


> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Dennis Miles <[email protected]>
> 
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Thanks for all the responses. I've replied to each below. I also added a 
few more pictures to my blog.

http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/



> => Jack wrote:
> > Wow, that is alarming. are they not using stainless steel??
> > "storing" them in a garage in S. Florida would be no different than
> > having them inside a car in S. Florida as well.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Once you get the rust off you might try smearing this on them: 
http://www.sanchem.com/aSpecialE.html
I'm using it on all my connections.




> echas wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for all the responses. I've replied to each below. I also added a
> > few more pictures to my blog.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Since some of the cells appear fine right next to rusted ones how does
Headway explain that? Obviously some were made with different end
materials, which is a quality control issue, not a storage issue. You might
want to post this over at www.diyelectriccar.com There is a Headway rep who
pops in once in a while, and a public debate on the problem might get you
some action.




> echas wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for all the responses. I've replied to each below. I also added a
> > few more pictures to my blog.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Agreed, it does seem like a quality control issue.

Good idea on the diyelectric car site. I just posted there as well.

I've already discussed this issue with Victoria, the Headway rep I believe 
you are referring to. She simply denies the cells can be at fault and blames 
it on improper storage. Customer support at it's finest.

Here are a few file links for those who can't view Flash pictures:
http://is.gd/97Apl
http://is.gd/97AFB
http://is.gd/97AKp


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "AMPhibian" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue


>
> Since some of the cells appear fine right next to rusted ones how does
> Headway explain that? Obviously some were made with different end
> materials, which is a quality control issue, not a storage issue. You 
> might
> want to post this over at www.diyelectriccar.com There is a Headway rep 
> who
> pops in once in a while, and a public debate on the problem might get you
> some action.
>
>


> > echas wrote:
> >>
> >> Thanks for all the responses. I've replied to each below. I also added a
> >> few more pictures to my blog.
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Did you build those packs?





> Matrixel <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Agreed, it does seem like a quality control issue.
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Nope. The packs were built by Headway. I specified the 8P4S configuration. 
In hindsight I would have simply ordered the raw cells and some of the 
mounting racks.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Travis Gintz" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue


> Did you build those packs?
>
>
>
>


> Matrixel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Agreed, it does seem like a quality control issue.
> >>
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Charlie

I looked at the pictures. Are the cells only rusting on one end?

Don

In a message dated 2/21/2010 9:24:19 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
[email protected] writes:

Message: 25
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:59:36 -0500
From: "Matrixel" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

I just want to let everyone know about an issue I'm having with my Headway 
Batteries. After 6 months of storage here in my South Florida garage, most 
of the cells are showing an alarming amount of rust on the positive 
terminals. The cells still have a good charge and spot testing has shown 
them to meet discharge specifications, unfortunatley the rust is now making 
it's way to the contact area and will need to be remedied before they can 
be 
used in a vehical.

Any idea's for would be appreciated.

Here are some pictures:
http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/

I'll post more if there is any interest.

Charlie 

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think that would be the case. The other side is some sort of insulating phenolic resin. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:22 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue
> 
> 
> Hello Charlie
> 
> I looked at the pictures. Are the cells only rusting on one end?
> 
> Don
> 
> In a message dated 2/21/2010 9:24:19 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
> 
> Message: 25
> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:59:36 -0500
> From: "Matrixel" <[email protected]>
> Subject: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
> 
> I just want to let everyone know about an issue I'm having with my Headway
> Batteries. After 6 months of storage here in my South Florida garage, most
> of the cells are showing an alarming amount of rust on the positive
> terminals. The cells still have a good charge and spot testing has shown
> them to meet discharge specifications, unfortunatley the rust is now making
> it's way to the contact area and will need to be remedied before they can
> be
> used in a vehical.
> 
> Any idea's for would be appreciated.
> 
> Here are some pictures:
> http://vintage-voltage.com/240sx/
> 
> I'll post more if there is any interest.
> 
> Charlie
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hey is the plastic near it PVC? 

I just remembered that when we cooked off a litle PVC in our molding
machines, all exposed metal rusted in a 1/2 hour and stainless less so,
but still did.
If we left PVC sitting on metal surface it rusted it.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

>> I looked at the pictures. Are the cells only rusting on one end?
>> Don

There is some minor rust on the negative terminals, but most is occurring on 
the positive side.



> Hey is the plastic near it PVC?
>
> I just remembered that when we cooked off a litle PVC in our molding
> machines, all exposed metal rusted in a 1/2 hour and stainless less so,
> but still did.
> If we left PVC sitting on metal surface it rusted it.
> Jeff



You may be on to something here Jeff. I'm not sure what plastics are being 
used but there are many.



The pack enclosure consists of 4 major components (from inside to out), 
rubber spacers, yellow sheet plastic, packing tape and blue shrink wrap. 
Each pack has 6-8 vertical rubber 1/2" spacers between the cells and the 
outside case to help keep the pack shape. It is then enclosed in a fairly 
rigid yellow plastic sheet which is covered with a full layer of packing 
tape. The yellow plastic makes a cracking sound when I bend it. The entire 
yellow plastic and taped mess is then blue shrink-wrapped. Overall it's a 
fairly air-tight arrangement which also serves to trap in any leaching 
plastic contaminants. When I opened up the last pack for the first time the 
plastic odor was very strong. Now it smells like packing tape.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 22 Feb 2010 at 2:14, Travis Gintz wrote:
> 
> > [Salt is] also a pretty corrosive compound that can eat away at the
> > paint and finish on cars, taking away their first defense against rusting.
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

David,

A lot has to do with ones actual proximity to the ocean. I've lived at my 
present location just under a mile from the ocean now for over 17 years now. 
I'm one of those consumers that buy a car and hold on to them for a while, 
usually about 10 years. I've never had a problem or heard of anyone else 
nearby with rust issues on their cars. A neighbor of mine grew up in a house 
on the beach and his cars showed signs of rust in just a few years. Where 
I'm located one unfortunately (or fortunately in this case) does not get to 
enjoy the refreshing smell of sea air from my front porch. The salt just 
doesn't make it this far.

The only time I had rust issues were on my cars in NY and MA. The salt on 
the roads really does a number of the frame and lower body panels of the 
older cars.

The best strategy for dealing with rust on the beach is to lase your 
vehicle.

Charlie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Headway Battery Rust Issue




> > On 22 Feb 2010 at 2:14, Travis Gintz wrote:
> >
> >> [Salt is] also a pretty corrosive compound that can eat away at the
> >> paint and finish on cars, taking away their first defense against
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Do not underestimate the reach of road salt in rust belt states.

About 20 years ago I was a Nature Conservancy volunteer keeping prairie 
remnants healthy in Northern Illinois. We were interested in the impact 
of road salt on the prairie plants, which were frequently close to the 
highway. IDOT, or somebody, came up with some money and had it studied.

It turned out that road salt was extremely mobile, because the traffic 
drove spray into the air an then blew salt dust all over once the 
pavement had dried. A two-lane highway could contaminate the ground with 
salt for over 1000 feet, and the Interstate could salinate the 
surrounding ground up to 3/4 of a mile from the roadway.

The same thing is also happening in your own driveway and garage in this 
region, whether you salt your property or not. Even in your home: just 
look at the salt stains on your shoes. Spreading salt on every paved 
surface all winter long is one of the most noxious things we do in this 
culture, and, I'm quite sure, a MUCH greater source of corrosion on 
everything than briny sea air, even if you keep a car off the road 
during snowstorms.

Tom
_____________________
Tom Alvary
Just A Tinkerer...
White Plains, NY

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