# The 'simple' things...



## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

Is this the diode across the coil that you are talking about?
if so it is just a snubber for spike suppression and a 400piv 4 amp diode would be plenty, not sure if the 200amp was a typo or what.
Congrats on getting closer to being on the road.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

elevatorguy said:


> Is this the diode across the coil that you are talking about?
> if so it is just a snubber for spike suppression and a 400piv 4 amp diode would be plenty, not sure if the 200amp was a typo or what.
> Congrats on getting closer to being on the road.


Yes, across the coil.
200v... and yes I messed up, it wasn't a 200A. I am going to use what I have on hand a 1N5408... courtesy of one Wen Li (Steven Li) of Kelly Controllers... he sent me four or five of them and a wiring harness (used no less... found the same type on my Chinese tractor...) ... ? for what ... well I guess it was for the 'future'? So I can't say it didn't come in handy.
And thank you, I sure hope this ends the 'bug hunt' for a bit. Next it will be on to wiring lights and horn and and... (all the 12V system) and then body work. Sheesh.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> ... forgot to CHANGE THE DIODE ON MY MAIN CONTACTOR which is an Albright SW200 series with 12VDC coil... for packs UNDER 72VDC, the stock diode is cool, but anything above should be a minimum of 200A and 200V capacity...


This does not make any sense. The voltage across the solenoid contacts has nothing to do with the coil.

What makes you suspect that the diode is bad?


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> This does not make any sense. The voltage across the solenoid contacts has nothing to do with the coil.
> 
> What makes you suspect that the diode is bad?


Well for one thing it FRIED... another thing is that Curtis states in the controller manual that: 
" A coil suppression diode should be used on the contactor coil. Curtis PMC
p/n MP-1 (which is rated at 100 volts, 3 amps) is appropriate in systems up to
72V. In systems with nominal voltage greater than 72V where the contactor coils
are energized from the battery pack, a diode with a breakdown voltage of at least
200 volts should be used."

My system is 108VDC...


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Well for one thing it FRIED... another thing is that Curtis states in the controller manual that:
> " A coil suppression diode should be used on the contactor coil. Curtis PMC
> p/n MP-1 (which is rated at 100 volts, 3 amps) is appropriate in systems up to
> 72V. In systems with nominal voltage greater than 72V where the contactor coils
> ...


Oh, I see. You originally said that your contactor had a 12V coil (like mine does). Now I see that you are running your full pack voltage through the coil. That makes a big difference.

Are you sure that your relay coil is rated for 108VDC?


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Oh, I see. You originally said that your contactor had a 12V coil (like mine does). Now I see that you are running your full pack voltage through the coil. That makes a big difference.
> 
> Are you sure that your relay coil is rated for 108VDC?


There is no relay, it is the Main Contactor coil...
Well with the configuration in the manual (pages 8 and 9) that is for the 1221, shows the use of a reversing contactor... I called Curtis and asked if the configuration for the 1221c could be used with the 1231c and was told by the tech that it would, with some adjustments such as the elimination of the connecting cable from A2 on the controller to the A2 post on my D&D Systems ES31B motor. Along with that I was to use a 10amp fuse the regular auto glass tube type, in the power wire from the pack... well I did. It blew and so did the diode... but I now have a 10A 500v slo-blo fuse (which my neighbor just happened to bring over while I was working on the beastie with a bunch of other goodies... he was cleaning out his 'pile' and wondered if I could use anything... I smiled and said 'Thanks'.. A LOT!) I built a holder for the slo-blo and have installed it in place of the other fuse. There were a couple of things that needed attention to adapt the controller to the system set-up. However there was no question that the tech was more than willing to help me run over the adaptations necessary... nice folks at Curtis.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> There is no relay, it is the Contactor coil...
> Well with the configuration in the manual (pages 8 and 9) that is for the 1221, shows the use of a reversing contactor... I called Curtis and asked if the configuration for the 1221c could be used with the 1231c and was told by the tech that it would, with some adjustments such as the elimination of the connecting cable from A2 on the controller to the A2 post on my D&D Systems ES31B motor. Along with that I was to use a 10amp fuse the regular auto glass tube type, in the power wire from the pack... well I did. It blew and so did the diode... but I now have a 10A 500v slo-blo fuse (which my neighbor just happened to bring over while I was working on the beastie with a bunch of other goodies... he was cleaning out his 'pile' and wondered if I could use anything... I smiled and said 'Thanks'.. A LOT!) I built a holder for the slo-blo and have installed it in place of the other fuse. There were a couple of things that needed attention to adapt the controller to the system set-up. However there was no question that the tech was more than willing to help me run over the adaptations necessary... nice folks at Curtis.


A slo-blo fuse is definitely a good thing if you have a lot of inductance in the protected circuit. The inrush current into your contactor coil could easily blow a fast-acting fuse.

My concern is with your contactor coil voltage. Your original post said you had "an Albright SW200 series with 12VDC coil..." If this is true you might damage your SW200 by putting 108VDC across the coil. According to Albright the coil is rated for 13 to 25 Watts continuous. The contactor is available with coils for 12 to 240 VDC. You can find out what coil you have by measuring the resistance. Check it in both directions since the diode will conduct in one direction. The highest reading will tell you what your max coil voltage is. See the table in the SW200 data sheet at http://www.albrightinternational.com/files/downloads/catalogues/SW200 LEAFLET.pdf


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> A slo-blo fuse is definitely a good thing if you have a lot of inductance in the protected circuit. The inrush current into your contactor coil could easily blow a fast-acting fuse.
> 
> My concern is with your contactor coil voltage. Your original post said you had "an Albright SW200 series with 12VDC coil..." If this is true you might damage your SW200 by putting 108VDC across the coil. According to Albright the coil is rated for 13 to 25 Watts continuous. The contactor is available with coils for 12 to 240 VDC. You can find out what coil you have by measuring the resistance. Check it in both directions since the diode will conduct in one direction. The highest reading will tell you what your max coil voltage is. See the table in the SW200 data sheet at http://www.albrightinternational.com/files/downloads/catalogues/SW200 LEAFLET.pdf


I have been asking myself the same question all along... I did explain to the tech my configuration and the contactors in use... never mentioned any worry about the 12VDC coil aspect... hmmm... I have the leaflet from Albright, was looking through it yesterday,.. I am going to call them at Albright and see what if anything they can offer me in the way of clarification... The cost of the contactor itself is negligible in light of all the other elements, but if I have to replace it that might not be a bad thing, the one I have in there went through a bit of a dowsing with fire extinguisher powder (from when I lost the original Kelly controller and subsequent fire...). 
I think I will investigate this more, THANKS... you may be saving me more need for fire-fighting equipment!!! something we all can do without eh?


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I have been asking myself the same question all along... I did explain to the tech my configuration and the contactors in use... never mentioned any worry about the 12VDC coil aspect... hmmm... I have the leaflet from Albright, was looking through it yesterday,.. I am going to call them at Albright and see what if anything they can offer me in the way of clarification... The cost of the contactor itself is negligible in light of all the other elements, but if I have to replace it that might not be a bad thing, the one I have in there went through a bit of a dowsing with fire extinguisher powder (from when I lost the original Kelly controller and subsequent fire...).
> I think I will investigate this more, THANKS... you may be saving me more need for fire-fighting equipment!!! something we all can do without eh?


If you can measure the coil resistance and tell me what it is I can calculate how much series resistance you will need to insert to limit the coil Wattage to the 13-to-25 range specified by Albright.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> If you can measure the coil resistance and tell me what it is I can calculate how much series resistance you will need to insert to limit the coil Wattage to the 13-to-25 range specified by Albright.


Thank you very much for your time and effort in helping. I, after much consternation, decided to rewire the contactor to the 12vdc system battery. It still works fine. The one thing I did find was that my negative wire to the reversing contactor had been put to the traction pack as well when I wired according to the Curtis outline. I switched it to the 12vdc... both work swimmingly now. However I have come to a very dark conclusion... being all cables are correct and all wiring is now A-OK, I have ONE of TWO possibilities: Either one of the terminals on a cable (or more than one) are bad or somehow not passing electricity to the motor,.. OR... my motor is dead. After the dowsing down with extinguisher powder I just hope it didn't corrode something inside the motor! My contactors work, the reversing contactor works both directions the main contactor closes and opens just fine as well when the pedal is pushed down and released. I retested the contacts at B- and B+ on the controller, and got my required voltage (my pack reads 110.7VDC and the terminal test (between B- and B+) gives me a reading of 108.9VDC so that is good. I then tested the terminals on the ES31B, and could not find any current pull there at all, in multiple configurations of point to point. Tomorrow morn I am going to straight wire the motor (with kill switch as the cut-off in line) to the traction pack, and bump the switch to see if there is any reaction... I really hope there is... cause it has to be either a cable that is faulty... (which I only hold as an option for hopes sake) and if not it is = 'Rip out the motor time' bench test and physically inspect the mechanism for signs of corrosion or damage or broken connection inside. I really hope it is a cable, I don't feel like trying to order another motor right now... It ran me $1500+ for that motor... ya just can't win for losin'... Oh well will have to see in the morning.
And again, thank you.


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> Tomorrow morn I am going to straight wire the motor (with kill switch as the cut-off in line) to the traction pack, and bump the switch to see if there is any reaction...


Is there a way that you can connect 12VDC to the motor as a test? That would be a lot safer than connecting 110V.


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Is there a way that you can connect 12VDC to the motor as a test? That would be a lot safer than connecting 110V.


I did the same test last year in the Fall just after the controller fire, to make sure I had a working motor, it worked then, but that was just after. The motor went into run-away of course in the midst of smoke and flame... so I did a direct connection with a full 144VDC pack and threw the switch to test. It ran up and shut down just fine... but I have been worried about the effect of not being able to get into the motor and really blow it out good. I know it moves... I shoved the car in gear and observed the flywheel (the venturi fins that blow air in the motor) and it moves it isn't frozen... just no sign of life in the contacts... and the juice is flowing everywhere else...
HOWEVER, I was thinking much the same thing this morning before getting up... heee heee! ya, you don't want to be pushing the safety envelope too much... I have been lucky enough to only 'burn down the world' once, don't want to go for a second try...


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## rfengineers (Jun 2, 2008)

fugdabug said:


> I did the same test last year in the Fall just after the controller fire, to make sure I had a working motor, it worked then, but that was just after. The motor went into run-away of course in the midst of smoke and flame... so I did a direct connection with a full 144VDC pack and threw the switch to test. It ran up and shut down just fine... but I have been worried about the effect of not being able to get into the motor and really blow it out good. I know it moves... I shoved the car in gear and observed the flywheel (the venturi fins that blow air in the motor) and it moves it isn't frozen... just no sign of life in the contacts... and the juice is flowing everywhere else...
> HOWEVER, I was thinking much the same thing this morning before getting up... heee heee! ya, you don't want to be pushing the safety envelope too much... I have been lucky enough to only 'burn down the world' once, don't want to go for a second try...


Well, what ever you do, be careful! There is a whole lot of energy in your traction battery. The rule-of-thumb back when I ran a defense contractor's R&D lab was "Make sure there is nothing between you and the door, then plug it in."


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

rfengineers said:


> Well, what ever you do, be careful! There is a whole lot of energy in your traction battery. The rule-of-thumb back when I ran a defense contractor's R&D lab was "Make sure there is nothing between you and the door, then plug it in."


Here'a a run-down:
1. disconnected ALL cables and looped A1-S1 (my original config minus the reversing contactor) and powered S2 ground on A2... applied 12VDC from deep cell battery. Motor turned (slower and at lower power but it TURNED). 
2. Ohm'd POT... 4.8Ohms at full throttle (with 12VDC turned on).
3. Controller still gives good reading (108.8VDC) across B- B+...
4. NO power is getting to motor from reversing contactor. Contactor closes along with Main contactor when POT arm is activated.
So, my plan is this:
1. Remove all cables to reversing contactor.
2. reconfig cables to motor with pattern not using reversing contactor (my original config).
3. Try that set up.
4. If it fails... 
a. beat wall against head repeatedly...
b. sit down have cup of coffee something to eat...
c. brush off the day and sit at my computer and report the status...
d. Go on vacation with wife to some nice beach for a bit...
5. IF it works... 
a. jump for joy yell and shout!
b. go for ride in beastie!
c. take camera to prove I am not lying...
d. do b and c above... 
e. make the beastie look all 'purty' and go for many rides to test 
and record mileage... 
f. order new reversing contactor (I quite literally had to re-build the one I have the bakelite was cracked in both towers under the seats. I am very thankful for a good two-part epoxy resin glue!) 
Can't say I don't have back-up plans...


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Surely 4d should apply in either case?


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Surely 4d should apply in either case?


YAHHOOOO... I get a vacation..! Right after I go to the dr. and get my head examined...


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## fugdabug (Jul 14, 2008)

And he survived the wall thrashing...
Yeah, about that wall... I switched out the cables, and reconfig'd to original plan. So one would think, "OK,.. we should see some voltage here!"... but noooooo...
It is the Controller. The M- leg is feeding the motor NA-DA juice. Talked to KTA, they are going to send me instructs for sending the unit in for repair, under warranty. ,,,
Kinda good news, but not really. Wanted to take a drive today... ah screw it... Molokai sounds good, by the time we get there the hurricane should have cleared the tourists out REAL GOOD...


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## elevatorguy (Jul 26, 2007)

I would test without the reversing setup and see if all is well and go from there. Or to be safe get some light bulbs to hook to the controller output and hook your meter to them then test your reversing setup and see if your voltage is reversed. This may save the worry of unintended movement and motor damage until you figure it out.
You may have epoxied something and it is not making contact due to insulation or mechanical issues.
Then go with 4d


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## Csecrist12 (Nov 22, 2019)

This is an old post and I was curious if you can post your wiring diagram with the specifics of the units you are using. I have a similar setup and along with being a newbie, don't want to fry my units if at all possible. I am doing a motorcycle conversation rather than a car or truck, but should be relatively the same. Only difference is I won't have reverse. I have the 1231C-86XX controller and am looking for more information on the suppression diode as it doesn't give much info as to what specific brand or model number.


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