# [EVDL] run away gtas peddel



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Wayne,
As I understand it the problem is that the transmission will not let you put
it into neutral while under power, and since the is no key or mechanical
switch, pushing the ignition button is seen as an errant move on the
driver's part and ignored by the onboard computer. Seems that they have
tried everything to take the human error portion out of the equation and it
has bit them in the behind.
FWIW, I too had a gas hot rod get its linkage jammed back in the 80's, and
yes, I simply turned off the key and coasted to the side of the freeway,
where I made a few adjustments, and was able to continue on my way to the
shop and make a proper repair.-Thos



On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Electric Blue auto convertions <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Something I saw in the news yesterday made me think that we should be
careful when assuming that people didn't do the obvious things to shut the
car down. One of the fatal accidents was an off-duty California Highway
Patrol officer and his family in a rented Camry. They all died. If a CHP
officer couldn't figure out what to do, I'm guessing that something was
seriously wrong. I would expect he would have an above-average chance of
remaining calm through that sort of incident and knowing what to do.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Thos True
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel

Wayne,
As I understand it the problem is that the transmission will not let you put
it into neutral while under power, and since the is no key or mechanical
switch, pushing the ignition button is seen as an errant move on the
driver's part and ignored by the onboard computer. Seems that they have
tried everything to take the human error portion out of the equation and it
has bit them in the behind.
FWIW, I too had a gas hot rod get its linkage jammed back in the 80's, and
yes, I simply turned off the key and coasted to the side of the freeway,
where I made a few adjustments, and was able to continue on my way to the
shop and make a proper repair.-Thos



On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Electric Blue auto convertions <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I am under the impression that once the car went full on, there was nothing
you could do. Your key doesn't turn off a car anymore, it tells the computer
to turn off the car, and if your computer has just locked up, you have to
either pull the fuse (I bet it's not even labeled as ECU/PCM, at least it's
not on my cars) or shoot out the computer. It becomes even worse when the
key is replaced by a push button, then it is ENTIRELY computer controlled,
by a single computer. 

At least EV's have two or three safety measures, usually within reach of the
driver, to stop in case of controller failure. I think these need to also be
in ICE's, especially since ICE's can run full on for quite a while before
either running out of gas(or battery power for an EV), or the blowing the
nonexistent fuse.

David Harrington

Electric Civic Conversion
http://civicity.blogspot.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Mike Nickerson
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:37 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel

Something I saw in the news yesterday made me think that we should be
careful when assuming that people didn't do the obvious things to shut the
car down. One of the fatal accidents was an off-duty California Highway
Patrol officer and his family in a rented Camry. They all died. If a CHP
officer couldn't figure out what to do, I'm guessing that something was
seriously wrong. I would expect he would have an above-average chance of
remaining calm through that sort of incident and knowing what to do.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Thos True
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 7:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel

Wayne,
As I understand it the problem is that the transmission will not let you put
it into neutral while under power, and since the is no key or mechanical
switch, pushing the ignition button is seen as an errant move on the
driver's part and ignored by the onboard computer. Seems that they have
tried everything to take the human error portion out of the equation and it
has bit them in the behind.
FWIW, I too had a gas hot rod get its linkage jammed back in the 80's, and
yes, I simply turned off the key and coasted to the side of the freeway,
where I made a few adjustments, and was able to continue on my way to the
shop and make a proper repair.-Thos



On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Electric Blue auto convertions <


> [email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Harrington" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel


>I am under the impression that once the car went full on, there was nothing
> you could do. Your key doesn't turn off a car anymore, it tells the 
> computer
> to turn off the car, and if your computer has just locked up, you have to
> either pull the fuse (I bet it's not even labeled as ECU/PCM, at least 
> it's
> not on my cars) or shoot out the computer. It becomes even worse when the
> key is replaced by a push button, then it is ENTIRELY computer controlled,
> by a single computer.

For sure! I THINK all auto builders should go back TO THE MECHANICALLY 
OPERATED key? Because we sheeple are used to A key TO TURN OFF AND ON, a 
car? I have driven new cars, as loners, and NEVER was comfortable with that 
button! A KEY, by LAW should turn the damn engine OFF, if turned OFF?Safety 
thing? But again you have to THINK of NOT turning too far, on some cars to 
lock up the steering? Embarrising in traffic?VW has it right as ya have to 
REMOVE the key to lock the steering, something yur not going to do, in 
traffic, anyhow?

Of course, omn YOUR home made EV you will have THOUGHT of that and 
provided a "Scram it" circuit, or clutch if it came to that?I like the 
mechanical break, a rod that PULLS a plug, anderson, a BIG ass contacter 
that can kill the whole thing!

Maybe this "Fly by Wire" thing has gone off the deep end? Toyota is 
getting deep shit about that, right now?

Seeya

Bob, happy with my Prius has a KEY!

> At least EV's have two or three safety measures, usually within reach of 
> the
> driver, to stop in case of controller failure. I think these need to also 
> be
> in ICE's, especially since ICE's can run full on for quite a while before
> either running out of gas(or battery power for an EV), or the blowing the
> nonexistent fuse.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Electric Blue auto convertions wrote:
> > I wonder if people are so panicked they forget to [turn off the key]?
> > Did they forget to think? Not everything is controlled by a computer.
> > Shut the damn thing off, that's a cheap fix, then park it, take a bus
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> > Something I saw in the news yesterday made me think that we should be
> > careful when assuming that people didn't do the obvious things to shut the
> > car down. One of the fatal accidents was an off-duty California Highway
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Roland,
A number of years ago when my first vehicle to put the high-beam selector
on the turn stalk, and no clutch because it was my first automatic, popular
mechanics suggested put a starter button type switch in the floor left of
the brake and connect it to the horn to give that left foot something to
do...

I did and it was often useful.

Nash in the 40's put the start switch under the clutch so all the way to
the floor plus 1/2 inch was cranking. why not a similar heavy duty switch
under the brake for emergency second contactor, or shunt
trip circuit-breaker cut off ! ! !

This thread has presented a number of good ways to protect the EV's we
build. Like an impact switch we should all include two or more...

Highest Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.EVTechnicalinstitute.COM
Phone (863) 289 - 0690
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



> Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Did you notice where your left foot is resting (left steering wheel
> > vehicles) when you are driving a clutch or automatic control transmission?
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Denis,
I think you have hit on a great method, as the brake generally goes about
half way to the floor normally. Under duress, adrenaline would allow the
added extension. The other added benefit would be a kill switch if the
brakes become too worn for safe operation, or failure. Not bad! -Thos



> Dennis Miles <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Roland,
> > A number of years ago when my first vehicle to put the high-beam select=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I would add to whomever tries my suggestion that some scheme be devised to
allow the pedal travel to continue past the switch as sometimes (as has
happened to me with a leaking brake fluid hose,) the pedal needs to go
farther. so mount the switch on a plate and support that with coil springs
over bolts like spacers to the floor and raise the switch up to actuate just
below strong braking point so only "Panic Position" will activate and let
the switch move to allow the pedal achieve full system capability travel. Or
mount the switch as a "Pull for on" and mount it up under the dash with a
stiff coil spring to pull it and trigger as above then extension of the
spring allows full brake operation especially in emergency and cuts pack
power to motor.(Thanks for the kind words, and please spell my name with two
nn"s, Dennis.)



> Thos True <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > Denis,
> > I think you have hit on a great method, as the brake generally goes about
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Bob Rice wrote:
> > But what IF he STOOD on the brakes? I mean HARD! Eased the car off the
> > road and gently into a tree,Grass, building , locomotive(standing), or other
> > immovable object BEFORE the brakes died? Isn't that how we do breakstands,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just tried to put my 2nd gen Prius in neutral while accelerating, I
had to hold the shift lever in neutral position for about a second but
it worked. No idea if the same is true for Camrys though.





> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Mike Nickerson wrote:
> >> Something I saw in the news yesterday made me think that we should be
> >> careful when assuming that people didn't do the obvious things to shut t=
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

A foot activated kill switch has 2 advantages
1) it can be high voltage on the other side of the firewall
2) In an emergency you can keep your death grip on the steering
wheel. Lets face it if it happens where there are any bumps in the road,
or you have had to go a little off road to avoid humans and immutable
objects in your path, You may need both hands to keep it on a safe
course or keep yourself planted well enough to hit "the button"

A clutch is a good mechanical disconnect. but a lot of EV's don't have a
tranny. When I was considering dual motor direct drive, i was thinking
of using the clutch to actuate a cable operated contactor. They exist.

None of our electric forklifts had clutches. and brakes on forklifts are
never very good. Only the uprights had a Big red knob and it was on the
end of a rod that unpluged the anderson from the pack. The sit down ones
just had a key to a main contactor.

What do golf carts have?

> Did you notice where your left foot is resting (left steering wheel 
> vehicles) when you are driving a clutch or automatic control transmission?
>
> In my manual transmission EV, my left foot is just to the left of the clutch 
> peddle with the heel of the shoe on the floor. With the automatic, my left 
> foot is also to the left of the brake peddle with only my heel resting on 
> the floor and the sole of the shoe is not against the sloping fire wall.
>
> Now my 1977 EV use a floor activated switch which is place further to the 
> left and up higher which is use for dimming the head lights. What If a 
> person puts this type of switch where you normally rest your foot as a 
> emergency cut off switch, I think you may have a quicker reaction time to 
> kill both the 12 volt and battery pack power.
>
> This dimmer light type of switch is a selector switch where you push to 
> activate and push to de-activate that can handle the ignition power up to 30 
> amps.
>
> Roland

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I will add that some cars came with power brakes and the brake pedal
asssumes it. It is actually wimpy by comparison and flexes like crazy
when you stand on it without power assist. They are stamped instead of
cut from a plate. (ask me how I know!)





> > Bob Rice wrote:
> >> But what IF he STOOD on the brakes? I mean HARD! Eased the car off
> >> the road and gently into a tree,Grass, building ,
> >> locomotive(standing), or other immovable object BEFORE the brakes
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > Nash in the 40's put the start switch under the clutch so all the
> > way to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Doug,

Some of these switches are momentary action. I using a standard floor 
selector switch that has a latching maintain contact that is normally use 
for head lights.

You could use a momentary switch where it will drop out the ignition and 
contactor circuit, if you use a relay that holds it self off or on between a 
momentary switch and the device you want to control.

The problem I do not like, using a standard relay, it will have to come on 
first by another switch before using the ignition-start circuit. It is best 
to use a latching relay or a latching switch which will maintain in either 
off or on when the power is turn off.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Weathers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel


>
>


> Dennis Miles wrote:
> >
> > > Nash in the 40's put the start switch under the clutch so all the
> > > way to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roland Wiench wrote:
> 
> > Some of these switches are momentary action.
> 
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If your momentary switch drops the contactor during a panic stop/stuck
acclerator event, odds are the controller will fault on the stuck
accelerator if you release the brake and the contactor comes back in, right?
A faulty controller could still restart, but like you said - it gibes you
time to safely shutdown.



> "Doug Weathers" <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Feb 27, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Folks, please don't forget that this is an EV resource. Discussion of why 
Toyotas, Audi 5000s, and other ICE cars experience runaway conditions is 
interesting, but doesn't have much to do directly with EVs. 

Some posts have related it in some way to EVs, which is a good thing. Alas, 
many are speculating about the causes, looking for reasons for the negative 
publicity, and/or relating anecdotes about the person's own runaway car 
experiences. These are pretty much pure ICE age stuff.

Please stay on topic.

Thanks,

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's an interesting thought, maybe the antilock brakes are doing a disservice in this case. Skidding the tires would prevent brakes overheating. In an EV, being able to skid the tires might allow current to rise high enough to blow a fuse (locked rotor condition).


My 300 hp V8 stops easily with the pedal floored. Car and Driver stopped a 540 hp Mustang from 100 mph with the pedal floored. If a car can't stop against a floored accelerator, it is poorly designed.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept

BTW I did a calculation, and estimate my brakes can provide 1400 hp of stopping power! That is, at least until they overheat.

Some new cars will downshift the tranny if they sense the car is speeding up with the brakes applied. Maybe the EV safety analog would be kicking in regen if the car is speeding up with the brakes applied. Another random thought: What about shorting the motor when the handbrake is pulled? Maybe with a resistor to prevent wheel skidding?



________________________________
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, February 26, 2010 10:55:26 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel



> Bob Rice wrote:
> > But what IF he STOOD on the brakes? I mean HARD! Eased the car off the
> > road and gently into a tree,Grass, building , locomotive(standing), or other
> > immovable object BEFORE the brakes died? Isn't that how we do breakstands,
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I think you should take care of a stuck throttle the same way they do in the gas cars... make the key switch the only thing that will shut the thing down and then put a locking mechanism on the steering that will lock the steering turned to the right!
T


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

How about cars that do not have keys anymore that you have to put in an ignition switch? The problem is that engineers today are
considering absolute safety less and less. Because of money, it becomes more a matter of "relative" safety. "Oh yeah to shut the
car down, just hold the power button for 5 seconds". Just 5 seconds????!!!!! that kills me... and it could kill you too ;-O

The term is "Positive Disconnect". Not "Probable Disconnect". I think some engineers brains these days have "perpetual disconnect".
I have always maintained there is a special place in hell for automotive engineers. I would challenge them to support their
reliability data against Telco or Medical or Military industry electronics any day. 

Oh too bad the public can't afford reliability? So to make it affordable we'll make it so that it takes 5 seconds to power down in
the event of an emergency. William Deming has probably rolled over in his grave millions of times in the last 17 years!

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Watson
> Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:53 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] run away gtas peddel
> 
> I think you should take care of a stuck throttle the same way they do in the gas cars... make the key switch the only
> thing that will shut the thing down and then put a locking mechanism on the steering that will lock the steering
> turned to the right!
> T
> 
> 
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I like Roland's idea of a disconnect for the left foot which reminds me of a
question I have been meaning to ask the group (Which ties in with this
thread). The conversion I bought had a clutch pedal that had been
disconnected and uses manual brakes without assist. It is a Honda Del Sol. I
replaced / upgraded every component of the brake system except the hard
lines attached to the chassis and the manual brakes work fine by themselves
for me. The 13/16 master cylinder puts out quite well. When I tested it I
stomped on the pedal with one foot on top of the other and locked up the
front wheels, so I skipped the vacuum pump. The two foot test got me
thinking of sistering up the clutch pedal with a tab over the the brake
pedal arm. This would give a two pedal brake option for panic stops. Anyway,
if it allowed the brake pedal to work normally under the tab or be assisted
by the tab, and it had a disconnect underneath it could give a simultaneous
disconnect and emergency brake assist. Since I have been driving it for over
a year now and have yet to need both feet, I wouldn't expect the disconnect
to be a nuisance. 
-- 
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/run-away-gtas-peddel-tp1569843p1572659.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > And, most people are not used to having to press VERY HARD on the brake
> > pedal. They are used to the power assist, and so merely tap the pedal to
> ...


----------

