# Brushed Motor Works



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good start, motor and, errr, motor!

What sort of final weight are you expecting with the Beemer?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well kerb weight is 1250kg so i plan to loose 250kg with engine and other bits. Gain say 100kg with motor and plate , 150kg if my nimh battery plan works and say another 50kg for charger and other stuff. so mabey 1300 to 1400kg new kerb weight.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I keep worrying about weight in my searches for a donor car.

I've been tempted to have a pair of Skoda Octavia estates, one diesel and one electric but I know how heavy my diesel one feels. Although it would have scope for an awful lot of batteries, if I could afford them.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ideally find something with a blown engine. saved me a fortune.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Ideally find something with a blown engine. saved me a fortune.


This looked interesting but needs too much welding for the money.
This is more sensible.
And this would be like picking the lame puppy at the pound!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Ok folks I have officially started on my bmw316 ev conversion. Donor car is a 1996 316i with a seriously melted 1.6l petrol engine. Drove it a mile from previous owner to my workshop and we had smoke coming out of the radiator and steam from the exhaust accompanied by some nice grinding and banging noises
> 
> Car has 106k miles and was main delaer serviced up to 75k and is in overall good condition. So far the plan is to remove ice and all its associated components and drop in an 80v mitsubishi compound wound forklift motor. Will probably run at 96v with regen. I'll be building an igbt based pwm controller and hope to run a 96v 135ah nimh pack. Not sure if it will go to plan but nothing ventured nothing gained. Main work will start early next week. Still in a parts gathering mode.


May I ask why you have settled on a 96 volt battery? I would suggest thinking about this further. It's not a real large car...but I expect that you may be disappointed with the performance at this voltage. Personally, I wouldn't go less than 144 or so. Preferrably 156 or more. I just think there are so many good reasons for going higher...as high as your components will allow at least.

Just food for thought mate.


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## madderscience (Jun 28, 2008)

that lame puppy might be worth a closer look if it is in good shape (basically, no rust) under all that dirt. 

(of course I am very biased )

1st gen mr2's mostly rust in the trunk floor, "frunk" floor, and rear wheel arches and sills. If its clean there, its a nice solid chassis. Engine and associated take-out crap weighs about 500lbs leaving about a 1600lb roller.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well i'm looking at 96v as i reckon i can run my 80v motor at that voltage without brush advance and hence be able to regen with the shunt windings. Just the theory at this stage may well change.

Ideally look for cars with common engine problems. In my case the bmw 316i suffer from viscous fan failure and overheating. Couple this with being owned by a moron "duh...coolant?....is that like a new aftershave?" then your on a winner. How about rovers? they blow head gaskets all the time and should be plentyfull in the uk.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> How about rovers? they blow head gaskets all the time and should be plentyfull in the uk.


Sorry to go off topic on your thread but....

If I was to spend several thousand quid on the conversion I wouldn't want it in a lousy looking car that I wouldn't want to keep for a lot of years.
I am looking for something that I would be happy to be seen in and will still look good, or classic, in ten or more years time.

I think the only Rover, apart from the Land Rover, that I would want is the P5B Coupe but that is a bit weighty.

I know its personal taste at the end of the day but it does matter to one's enjoyment of the vehicle and the effort that will go into it.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just a sugestion Lots of nice cars out there with known engine issues. Suggest talking to a good independent mechanic.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well , today i found out the bmw bell housing bolts are a stupid head called e-torx. Naturally none of the local auto parts shops had suitable sockets in stock. Good old Ireland So onto ebay I go. Started removing some of the plastic rubbish from the engine bay and rigged up some sockets and lights.

Making progress on the nimh battery front. Looks like i may be able to get them without much difficulty or expense. I seem to get 3 reactions from people who ask what i'm doing with the car:

1)Your crazy!
2)Why not mount a generator on the back wheels to recharge the battery as you drive.That one raises my blood pressure
3)If the car manufacturers cant do it neither can you. More blood pressure increases


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## dimitri (May 16, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> 1)Your crazy!
> 2)Why not mount a generator on the back wheels to recharge the battery as you drive.That one raises my blood pressure
> 3)If the car manufacturers cant do it neither can you. More blood pressure increases


At least people are consistently stupid across the world, because you get the same pearls of wisdom around here when talking about DIY EV.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well just spent the past 2 days removing crap from the engine bay (lots of that) , exhaust , driveshaft and finally the infernal fuel tank. Never worked on a bmw before but i can say with certainty that frakin' tank was in there to stay. 3 hours of wrestling , cutting , hammering and cursing got it out. Now I have tons of hoses and pipes and wires dangling down looking for something to do. They need to go next.All set to pull the engine and gearbox next week.

Still looking into the nimh battery option and will start doing some experiments. I've also decided to make my own pot bot. Options include the throttle position sensor that was on the throttle body or just copy the curtis pb6. Doesn't look like brain surgery and i don't have a hundred bucks to spare.

Think I have the splined shaft problem solved. in theory anyway. Not enough meat on the shaft to turn off the splines so i'm planning to cut a keyway in the splines and just fit the coupler on over them. I'm leaning toward a rigid coupler for strength. Anyone any experiences either way?

Got 3 12v 150ah agm batts for free so i'll do a few white zombie style contactor controller launches when i get the motor in

I swear if i had a gun i'd have pumped a few rounds into that petrol tank once i got it out


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I'm leaning toward a rigid coupler for strength. Anyone any experiences either way?


Hey jack,

Check out m38mike's adventure on post #27 on this thread 

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/my-electro-willys-needs-help-25633p3.html 

Regards,

major


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

wow. That I don't need. Flexi coupling it is so Any particular type work best? I have a standard type with 3 jaws each end and a rubber insert.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well finally had a result wit the splined shaft / coupler saga. Found an engineering works that manufacture plastic injection moulding tools that were willing to key the shaft and coupler. They did a really good job I think. The key is seriously tight in the shaft and needs a jacking screw to be removed. Internal keyway in the coupler was done with a wire eroder. Seriously tight tolerances. Anyway next stage is taking the center out of the clutch friction plate and welding it into the other half of the jaw coupler. The gearbox is really small and neat. German efficency no doubt!

On the car i'm now into sorting out the engine managment wiring from the body electrical systems. Fun and games. Removing the fuel lines today i got a nice shower of petrol on the head. I suppose it had to have a last stab at me.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is looking really good there Jack.

It'll be interesting to see how you do with no clutch and which side of the clutch/no clutch debate you end up on. I'm begining to think that there may be something in the choice of gearbox that determines sucess or not.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Bored out the other half of the coupler to a nice tight fit on the clutch center. Was going to weld it but as the coupler body is cast iron I reckon that would be a bad idea considering the loads that will be carried. Plan is to drill and tap six m8 holes around the disc for m8 x 40 stainless allen bolts.

I've retained the throttle body from the engine as it has a nice 5k throttle position sensor that varies from 1.2k to 4.7k over the range. This will make a nice cheap pot box.


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## gte718p (Jul 30, 2009)

I might of missed something, but why key it? Why not just cut splines in the coupler. It doesn't seem that much more difficult then cutting the notch.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I've kept the throttle body from mine too, not checked the position sensor yet but I figured that it would be useful either way.

I've seen some couplers that have kept the springs from the clutch centre as it helps absorb some of the shock loadings in the system if there are any. I don't know if there is any advantage over the solid couplers.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Would have cost a fortune. I asked


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

woodsmith cost was the decider. I had that coupler to hand from an abandoned project.I looked at keeping the clutch and flywheel but the hen's brain that wrecked the engine burnt the hell out of the clutch and i couldn't afford the cost of a new kit. The release bearing fell to pieces and there was more duct then lining


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

More work on gearbox / motor adaptor. Used two 12mm steel plates , one on gearbox and one on motor. Gap required is 60mm so need to make up 4 spacers. Transfer punches made the job of locating the holes a snap. Still need to work out how to secure the clutch center to the coupler.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I bet that 12mm plate weighs a bit!

How are you ensuring parallel and flatness?

I will need to look for something to make my adaptor with at some point. Initially I think it will be birch ply though 2" thick of quarter sawn oak would probably do just as well as aluminium plate.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Great work so far!

How did you made/designed the motor-gearbox shaft adaptor?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Not too heavy. About 10 to 12kg per piece. I'm using a standard pilot bore jaw coupler with a plastic center insert of the type used to couple shafts in industry. I had it to hand from a previous project so i'm giving it a shot. Not sure if it will work out. One side is bored and keyed to fit the motor and other side is bored to fit the clutch center spigot. I'm not sure as yet how i'll secure the spigot to the coupler.

the big advantage of this type of coupler is that they allow for considerable misalignment between the two shafts. The plates themselves were cut from one length of steel and are as flat as I can measure so fingers crossed. I'm making 4 spacers from 60mm round stock and will drill and tap it to m16 to bolt the two plates together.

I'd have loved to use ali but its way too pricey. I'd have been looking at 200 euros for two plates and the steel only cost 40.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Another day at the office. Made up 4 spacers from 60mm round steel stock. Each spacer is 62mm +/- .05mm. Drilled and tapped them m16 center. Took a long shot at the hardened clutch disc and it paid off. Used the tig on low current (70a dc) to heat the 4 corners of the disc to bright red. Drilled 5mm no problem and opened up to 7mm to tap m8. The 7mm bit struggled so at least i know i only softened a small area. Tapped m8 down into the coupler and have ordered some m8 high tensile allen bolts. Just used some grub bolts to get an idea and seem to be ok.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's looking good there, great progress.

Just one thing.
Are you tapping both the clutch centre and the coupler together?

Surely the holes in the clutch centre should be a plain snug fit on a bolt and the hole in the coupler should be threaded and then counter bored a little way for the unthreaded part of the bolt? 
That way you can tighten down the clutch centre to the coupler and have it flat and properly registered on the mating surfaces.

If both parts are threaded together then they will never be able to tighten down flat and if you don't orientate the parts correctly then the theads won't line up and thre will some uneven jacking up in the joint.

I've found a bit of aluminum plate on ebay for my adaptor now.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thats the idea exactly. Main problem i had was the hardness of the steel on the clutch disc. I hope this setup will handle the torque. Had the coupler been steel i would have just welded the thing. I don't honestly know why these couplers are made from cast iron.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got the stainless high strength bolts for the clutch center today. Seemed to work well. Put them in with thread lock. Motor and gearbox now fully coupled up and running sweet. I dunno if its just me but looking at an electric motor driving a car gearbox just makes so much sense Anyway i've very pleased as it was my first attempt. Thanks to everyone who gave advice in this and other threads.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Way to go, Jack! Well done!
I bet you're proud and justifiably so.

Can you tell if your coupler is central or doing its job and allowing for misalignment at all?



jackbauer said:


> I dunno if its just me but looking at an electric motor driving a car gearbox just makes so much sense


that reminds me of my first ever motor driven gearbox. 
I built it in 1983. It was a cutaway of a Ford mk1 Escort gearbox that I motorised with a 240v gear motor and then donated to Hackney College motor vehicle tech department where I was studying my City and Guilds Motor Vehicle Tech qualifications.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Everything looks to be running sweet. I drilled a 50mm hole in the bell housing to let me get it lined up as true as possible.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> I don't honestly know why these couplers are made from cast iron.


Probably so that if something has to break, it'll just be the coupler and not a shaft. 
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES NEW PATIENT


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Amberwolf said:


> Probably so that if something has to break, it'll just be the coupler and not a shaft.


Cast iron also has some self lubricating or low surface friction properties I think. That would help in a coupling that may experience some sliding action in its motion. It was a long time ago that I studied any metallurgy.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

That makes sense. 

But if it does have low friction, why would it be used for treadmill flywheel/pulley parts? I ask because I'm pretty sure the treadmill motor I have here used a cast-iron pulley with integral flywheel, using a multi-ridge serpentine-style belt (although only a very short one, not in serpentine-style). 

Maybe it was just cheap to make that way, and easy to lathe the pulley on it. 
________
VAPIR REVIEW


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

From what I can remember cast iron has a lot of carbon in it and the carbon makes it low friction. Maybe it isn't low in general terms but it is low relative to steel. It does also wear better then steel when comparing cast iron to cast iron surface with steel to steel.

Maybe I am completely wrong and my metallurgy teacher was right to tell me I wasn't paying attention, I was more interested in dynamics and mechanical motions classes.

Cast iron is cheap though but so is cast steel and that could be the difference. All depends on the carbon (and other elements) in the mix.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well we'll soon see how it holds up. It was effectively free so if it breaks into a hundred pieces i won't shout too loud. Painted the adaptor with cold galvanising paint then finished with some matt black spray from an auto store. Ordered some parts for the open source controller so thats the next big job after motor and gearbox reinstall which is slated for end of week.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Painted the adaptor with cold galvanising paint then finished with some matt black spray from an auto store.


I wouldn't be able to resist doing mine in nice loud primary colours. I even want to paint the engine bay in aluminium paint or shiny silver spray paint to show off the electrical bits.



jackbauer said:


> Ordered some parts for the open source controller so thats the next big job after motor and gearbox reinstall which is slated for end of week.


I am really tempted to make my own controller but I don't have any electronics testing equipment or knowledge. I can follow a schematic though so given a diagram I can source the bits and solder one together. Whether or not I could tell if it works is another matter though.

I tried reading the Paul and Sabrina thread on Ecomodder but it was way too long to sift through for the useful bits I could understand.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thats the one i'm building they're also selling a full kit of parts. I'm just getting the board and a pre programmed micro and i'll make it up as i go due to having no money I may go with the MC33033 chip just hedging my bets. I'm a firm believer in not reinventing the wheel though. Just need to sort out some kind of a vac pump for the brakes.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Thats the one i'm building they're also selling a full kit of parts. I'm just getting the board and a pre programmed micro and i'll make it up as i go due to having no money I may go with the MC33033 chip just hedging my bets. I'm a firm believer in not reinventing the wheel though. Just need to sort out some kind of a vac pump for the brakes.


Are they? I obviously never read far enough through the thread. Have you got a link?
Ahhh, found it now. Cheers.

I am tempted to get a used transit vacuum pump, the one with the polyvee pulley on it, and coupling it to a 12v motor, of which I have a few. The pump looks self contained, just bolted to the side of the engine, so it should be a straight forward job.
Someone mentioned a possible noise problem but I figure that if I tuck it away in the nose cone or way back in the boot area then the noise may not be a problem.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Link here:
http://paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/index.html

Also thinking of the transit pump but need to find a suitable motor.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Link here:
> http://paulandsabrinasevstuff.com/store/index.html
> 
> Also thinking of the transit pump but need to find a suitable motor.


I have a couple of 12 volt continuous machine drive motors that my Dad gave me to play with when I was thinking of an electric recumbent trike. They weren't really powerfull enough for that but I think they should be fine for a vacuum pump. I will get this pump and try. There are two of them available.

The other option would be to find an old 12v electric bike of scooter. I have a 24v one that Dad found at a car boot sale for £10. It looks a bit like a stupid version of a monkey bike with tiny 6" wheels but it quite happily pulls me around doing wheelies at about 10mph.

Would this motor do for your pump?
Also this one.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

All finished off and set for installation tomorrow. Will be taking a break from the ev for a few weeks after motor and gearbox installation as I have painting and decorating to do at home


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That does look good bolted up.

When you mentioned P&D I thought you meant on the car.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Motor and gearbox reinstalled in the car , drive shaft and gear linkages hooked up and did a 12v test today. Naturally forgot the camera!Only have about an inch of clearance between the motor and the steering rack. I really thought it wouldn't fit at one stage. Next stage will be to fab a motor mount that will fit the original engine mountings. I was mesmerised watching the wheels turning and no engine running! Sounds sad i know


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Not much progress so far but i did get to take some photos and video. Contacted a few bmw parts houses to see about engine mountings. Can only be bought as a pair for the bargain price of 170 euros! Nuts to that said I and picked up two Land rover defender mountings on ebay for less than 20 euros! Much more beefy than the bmw mountings and fitted perfectly. Really backs up the 'parts make money' theory! Next up will be making up brackets etc to secure the motor.

Re batteries it seems that despite my best efforts i'm going lead acid at least to get on the road. My nimh idea is not totally dead but I don't want to wait until pension age. Lifepo will happen in the future my main reason for not doing so right now is ridiculous import taxes and charges in Ireland. Would nearly double the price just to get them out of Dublin port! So with that in mind i'm aiming at a pack of 8 Odyssey PC2150 100ah agm batts. A local company will supply them at a considerable discount.:
http://www.jtmpower.ie/odyssey-battery-pc-2150.html


I am going to install a 96v or 120v 10ah nimh aux pack for use with regen and shunt field supply. The odyssey bats are very tough and will take massive charge currents so should work well with regen. Also going nimh for the 12v systems. Coupling all this with my range exender / generator trailer should make a good first ev.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbQQDAKpsxw


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good Jack. Nice video too.

It is great to see the motor spinning the wheels and the sacrificial spammer is a good idea!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just a few more videos of progress:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz3_K2lpldQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5ed50YqLNs


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well more action today. Removed last of the fuel system components namely the fuel filler. It put up one hell of a fight , almost like an addict going cold turkey. Also removed clutch pedal , pipes and slave cylinder. Got a major break with the mr2 pas pump. The bmw high pressure pipe is a perfect fit! No need for expensive hydraulic hoses to be made.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great images there Jack.
Is the motor motor mounting assymetric to clear the steering?

I like the way the posting of the last three videos start with the motor running and turning wheels, then out of the car and connected to the gear box, and then disassembled. I know they say time stands still in Ireland but it seems to be going backwards. 
Or maybe you are building so fast that relativistic effects ar taking place.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeah its a time dilation effect Must me a wormhole ne.............ar.....................................................by................. I had to make two different brackets due to the steering linkage.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got my brake pump from the states today:
http://www.gd-thomas.com/product.aspx?id=13742&tp=v


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got the pump up and running.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HWCJgH5s_k

Woodsmith the vac switch I used is the same as the one i sent to yourself and seems to work well.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good video there Jack.

Thanks for the switch, it arrived today, I just got home from work and rehearsals and unpacked it.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Glad it turned up ok. got the vac setup into the car and works perfect. I didnt drive the car far with the engine but I think the electric system is developing more vac. Pedal went to the floor with only a small effort. I get 3 full applications with the drink bottle resevoir so no problems in an emergency. Wired it up to the fuel pump fuse and relay for testing. Just have to get some large hose clips to secure the resevoir. Next job : power steering


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Shot some more video at the weekend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq-QqDaNNOw 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmVunk-mUXo 

Got the vac system properly installed , sorted the recharge socket and did a bit of investigation on battery placement. My controller parts are being held up by stupid customs. No doubt i'll be hit with charges


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Excellent video tour. I had to rush through it as I am going out in a bit but will watch them again later.

Going by your last videos I was half expecting the ICE to be back in the car!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Don't worry i've numbered the videos now! Just as well I let my membership of the iei expire:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2009/0805/1224252004213.html

With morons like that no wonder we're in a recession


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got the power steering done today. Shot some video , came home to find the camcorder had'nt actually bothered to record I hate jvc. Got my controller parts today and have started stuffing the board. Very impressed with the quality. Seen much worse in my time! Hopefully get it driving the igbts over the weekend and test out on the "warp13" Mayhem is bound to ensue!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's good, the controller not the camera.
I'd be interested in how the controller goes together as I may well go the same route.

Have fun with it.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The camera is back working today (typically!) so i shot a quick vid of the controller driving a 150amp 600v igbt. 12v 21w lamp as the load scope showing gate to emitter. I'll ramp this up to drive 4 x 150a igbts and have ordered 2 x 1600v 800a monsters from the german ebay. I dug out an old nissan starter motor from the junk pile today so that will make a nice inductive "dummy load". I hated transistor theory in college. Now i can't get enough. Go figure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiND9UajAi8


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Link doesn't work. It goes to some sort of music vid with some low budget lighting effects and laser show.












I'm impressed, I don't have the electronics know how to do that. Well done.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Low budget is right Got my head stuck in datasheets right now trying to work out switching times , gate charge , vce on and all that fun stuff! Theoretically I reckon with 1600amps worth of igbts , 400v caps , lots of copper and a little luck i could give a zilla run for its money. Either that or disapear in a ball of plasma

Biggest problem is finding high power soft recovery diodes. Need atleast 1000amps worth.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Wired up a 12v nissan starter motor to the igbt and upgraded the wiring. It works! I bypassed the solenoid so it just runs the motor. Takes 30 amps to get it moving then ramps up to 60amps and full bore. My 7ah gell batt suffers a bit of "pack sag" at that current dropping to just under 10v. After about 30 seconds of running the igbt base plate was warm. About 30-40c i would guess but its only a 150 amps device , got no heatsink and sits on a wooden bench. So not bad for a first run.

next moves : 4 igbts in parallel , caps , 24v , two 12v starters in series for some white zombie type action!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Neat!

So that is all there is to it?
A circuit board that provides a PWM signal to switch the igbt block, batteries in one side of it and motor on the other side?

So if I was to get a kit to build one would I need a scope and other test equipment too or could I just assemble and 'plug in'?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

What i have done here is to order a control board and components from paul holmes (about $150). I couldn't afford $600+ for the complete kit. Plus shipping plus stupid vat at this end. I have 4 fuji 150amp 600volt igbts left over from a project that i'm using for experiments. I have ordered 2 fuji 1200volt 800amp igbts from ebay that i hope to use in the power section of the controller. I need to add freewheel diodes , heatsinking and a large capacitor bank. Assuming I get the gate drive to work happy then this should yeild a controller capable of several hundered volts at 500amps minimum. I'll be happy with 500amps but i'm trying to build it with massive overkill to allow for future upgrades and potential problems.

I don't like the idea of lots of mosfets for various reasons. I was seriously impressed with seeing a starter motor under speed control! I'm on a learning curve myself as controlling high dc current is not exactly easy!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Now up to 3 igbts running the starter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_VMPA-oO3w


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good video Jack.

Was you able to hold the motor at a low speed for any duration?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

No it wont run slowly because its designed to be proportional to current when running a 144v 500amp system. My little starter at 12v doesnt even register. It just keeps increasing the pwm but never sees the desired current and thus goes full bore. I'm sorting some new software for the micro that will make bench testing easier.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Toyota mr2 pas pump now fitted and running perfectly. Its really quiet. I'll shoot some video later. Old car battery i'm using for tests went dead! Very pleased with the way the high pressure pipe turned out. Could have been very expensive. The bmw pipe nut is a perfect fit in the mr2 pump BUT whereas the bmw pump has a female flare the mr2 is male. I cut the male flare off the bmw pipe and filed it as flat as possible. Next i used a drill bit to make a gentle female flare in the pipe. Fitted a copper washer , tightned the lot down and crossed the fingers. Works great with no leaks even when holding the wheel in lock.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

More work on the motor controller:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwVp6l05UE


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I made some changes to the layout of the power section today. Fitted larger caps directly to the busbars and moved to the workshop to try the "warp13" motor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL1sItO2HQs


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's the final rev of the controller power section on test. Next stage is to install it in the car. I'd appreciate any feedback and comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmhHjoEMbiE


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Doing some more work on the controller today. Trial fit to see how it goes together. Aiming to install in the car for further tests next week. Scrounged some 400amp fuses on ebay for pennies. Major cost saver. Metal box will , i hope , improve rf shielding and contain the blast if it lets go

Found a little controller kit on the web that i hope to use as a controller for the shunt field. It only draws about 3 amps at 72v. Thinking of mounting a pot on the dash calibrated between speed (low shunt field current) and torque (high shunt field current).
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3067-dc-motor-speed-controller-4-100v-7.5a.htm


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice box. It looks a good size too. Was that coincidence or did you design to fit it?

I have tried watching your last videos but for some reason my connection don't like them much at the moment and they are constantly stop start so I gave up.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I had that box from an old project so designed the heatsink to fit. Last two vids just showed me running a forklift motor from the new controller setup and showing data etc. Its worked out very cheap as I had most of the bits to hand. Real proof will be testing in the car under serious load. It has a theoretical capacity of 800amps but if i get half that i'm happy. Can be upgraded later. Real bonous is being able to use the bmw throttle body as the pot box.

Don't know why the vids are not working. I get that from time to time on youtube. Jerky playback etc.

I've settled on the odyssey pc2150 batts for now as my commute to work is only 6 miles and i can recharge there anyway. Nearest big town is only 6.5 miles and Dublin 18 miles where i can recharge at a friends house. I've had to shelve the nimh bat option after months of frustration. Seems these companies don't need my business

On a brighter note i've been offered a 2000 model land rover freelander petrol with a knackered engine. ev2 perhaps?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It's not just your vids, I've been getting problems with some others that are more then a minute or so long. My lappy or wifi doesn't seem to like buffering them some days.

The Freelander sounds interesting, Simon Rafferty has one with a lucky find ac motor and controller.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well the controller is almost ready for beta testing. Hopefully by weekend. I picked up a great deal on ebay for 3 x 400amp fuses and holders for less than 20 euros. Prices i had been qouted from electrical suppliers was north of madness! Even US based ev suppliers I looked at on the web were quite expensive. I have one spare so if anyone's interested...... Also picked up a kilovac contactor quite cheap. Guy has a few left:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399627974&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Bought a hydraulic crimper on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170402065920&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

Ok its not exactly a snapon but will be better than a hammer!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Bought a hydraulic crimper on ebay:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170402065920&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
> 
> Ok its not exactly a snapon but will be better than a hammer!


Jack,

Thanks for this post. If you have time check out my thread "A caution on the Harbour Freight 40.95 hydraulic wire crimper". This crimper appears identicle to the one Harbor Freight list with one exception, the Die Size appears to be correct. The HF tool lists dies up to 2/0 AWG that are WAY undersized. 

The pictures in your link show this tool to really be the tool that the HF tool says it is.

I've seen the tool from your link, YQK-70, listed over here without specs or illustrations. I'll now be able to point people to something that will really work.

Thanks.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It will be good to see how well that crimper works and if it is sufficient. I am also watchign that one and also this one:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270452052741&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'd say it'll work fine for low volume usage. I'm planning to use 50mm sq cable so the small one is sufficient. Compared to the prices being sought for a "professional" version its no contest. Depending on the die size should be possible to get two crimps per lug.

I also picked up a kilovac contactor for a good price:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399627974&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

el cheapo crimper turned up yesterday and i had a chance to make up a cable this morning. I ended up going with 70mm sq eland flexi cable. I think thats a little bigger than 2/0 awg. First impressions of the crimper are good. Its quite heavy in the head area and the hydraulics work fine. Dies look ok but i wouldnt bet on using them in any kind of continuous duty. They hold into the crimper by magnetism. I made up a short patch cable with a crimp on both ends. I held one end in the vice and tried to pull it out. Didnt budge. Instruction manual is in "chinglish" but what instruction do you really need for a crimper? Also included is a kit of o-rings. Plastic coating is awfull but again who cares at that price. In short its a great choice for someone doing an ev on a budget.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

First test drive today! Fitted two 12v 150ah agm batts from my solar system. About 5 years old but worked great. Even climbed a very steep hill. So far the igbt based controller is working really well. Certainly got the ev grin ... and grimace!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CBrDa4iZnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYVgbfTtG0o


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Jack,

Congrats on your first trial run! It'll get better from now on.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

"where did that come from?" LOL!

Looking forward to your next drive. Congrats!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Well done Jack, it's moved under its own power! That is excellent news.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks guys. Did a few more runs today. Drove a total of 0.8 miles! Climbed the hill in third pulling 400 battery amps with 4 people in the car! Heatsink temp peaked at 28c. According to the pc program rtd explorer i consumed 7.8ah for the whole journey. Very impressed with the rtd program as i could actually see the motor amps graph climb as the hill got steeper. Despite running the controller at 8khz there is no noticeable noise. Only a tiny whine at low speed. Nothing like the curtis. I even managed an upshift from first to second. No problems.

My biggest problem is the mr2 power steering pump blowing fuses. I've gone up to 30amps but am having trouble finding a 40amp blade fuse at local motor stores. Guess i'll have to ebay it

All in a great test and proves its a viable vehicle. Next step 48v


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## electromet (Oct 20, 2009)

Jack, 

What size fuse does the pump use in its natural setting? You shouldn't be drawing any more current than the MR2 does. Do you have some kind of bind in the steering linkage? As for fuse sizes, check out www.delcity.net. They've got all kinds of cool circuit breakers and fuses and stuff. Makes your mouth water, and I don't even know what most of the stuff is used for.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I think I read somewhere that the MR2 pump can pull 45amps under full load.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I don't actually know what size fuse it uses in the mr2. Perhaps woodsmith could help with that one?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

you beat me to it! thanks woodsmith. I've ordered some 40 amp fuses.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Ahhh, I've just found it in the MR2 manual. The standard fuse for the Power steering pump is 80 amps.

Have a look at this thread on installing a MR2 pump in a car that runs on some sort of combustable liquid fuel!




> Another thing worth noting is that the p/s pump from the 92-95 MR2 draws a lot of amps. Even the stock 75 amp relay would fail all the time on the original cars. Many people fixed this by running 75-100 hi-amp aftermarket relays. The 00-05 MR2 p/s pump only requires a 50 amp relay. It draws about 4 amps at idle and usually runs less than 40 amps at full load.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Great info thanks.This is the pump i bought:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Toyota-MR2-Tu...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item1e588cccfe

It only draws about 3 amps at idle. Problem is if i hit full lock it pops the 30 amp fuse i had on the circuit. Max normal blade fuse i can run is a 40 amp so i'll try that first before running in a dedicated circuit. It also looks like i'll have to upgrade the accessory battery as the 42ah odyssey isn't going to cut it with that sort of a draw. I'll probably bump it to an 80ah gell battery. The newer pump would be the perfect solution of course.

I've seen some of those liquid fueled cars about myself. Can't imagine driving one though. Like sitting on a bomb


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Same pump I have. Winding through town it may have to be factored in to the W/mile calculation!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I've opted for a victron bmv-602 battery monitoring system. I looked at various options and was tempted to go the cheap way with a chinese lcd volt and ammeter from ebay. Bit the bullet in the end and opted for the victron from a local supplier. 
http://www.victronenergy.com/battery-monitors/bmv-600 and bmv-602/

Its a seriously advanced unit and can monitor 2 batteries so ideal for the traction pack and the aux 12v battery. I'll be adding on a module that will enable it to send and receive text messages so i can get the car to send me a message when its finished charging or i can send a text to interrogate the unit about soc , voltage etc. It can also log data to a website. I'm also going to use it as a charge controller as it has a programmable relay output that i can set to open or close at any voltage.

I'm almost certainly going with odyssey pc2150 12v agm batts. One of the big advantages is that they can absorb unlimited charge current in the region of 2xC20. Potential idea is to go for a fast dumb charger based around a transformer / rectifier and a small individual "smart" charger for each battery. Once the dumb charger dumps say 80% soc back into the batteries the victron will switch it off and the smart chargers on to ballance each battery and bring them to 100% soc. any thoughts?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok few pics and updates. Finished wiring up the battery monitor and fitted to the dash in an aftermarket gauge pod. BMW instrument panel is a sealed unit so i decided to leave it alone. I'll hopefully get the fuel gauge to operate as a basic battery level meter and get the temp gauge to read heatsink temp. The bmv also monitors the 12v accessory battery so its two in one. Very smart pieve of kit. I wired up my two agm test bats , programmed the unit in a few minutes and went for a virtual drive on the blocks. BMV displayed , voltage , current , Ah consumed , SOC , time to 20% dod etc. Its also got a little beeper and a n.o. relay that can be programmed to open or close at just about any preset parameter. I also fitted the optional serial interface for connection to a pc or gsm modem.

Also took a few pics of my rpm sensor setup. As the fork motor does not have a tailshaft i used a 52mm holesaw to remove some of the rear housing over the comm end bearing. Next i turned two little buttons of 6mm rod to 7mm long and glued them to oposite sides of the bearing with high temp epoxy. I know i'll get flamed for this but it seems to work well.

Fitted a timer , relay and a 1k 50w resistor precharge system. The timer also controls the original alternator warning light on the dash which stays on during precharge thus letting me know when its safe to drive. I also fitted a permanent serial cable to the controller for pc comms.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Went to work on an old inverter welder pcb with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. Rescued several parts including heatsinks , mosfets , fast rectifiers , caps , bridge and most importantly the hf transformer. Will be starting a build of simonrafferty's charger in the next few days. I hope to use the hf transformer from the welder as the inductor. I have a few choices as it has a primary and secondary and i could even use the two in series (and in phase!).


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Quick video of initial experiments with Simon's charger circuit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqwIIadkRYg


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good video, still a little over my head though.



I like the subtle product placement of the 3 in 1 oil.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Gotta have 3in1. Think that can's about as old as i am Anyway had a friend who's a metalworker fold up a nice tray from some 2mm galvanised steel to form a tray for the charger. Also made a box for the charger from the same sheet.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Merry Christmas everyone


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well predictably the jaw coupler started giving trouble so i whipped out the motor and gearbox to have a look. Decided to totally re engineer the adaptor plate and coupler. Have some 8mm plates on order water-jet cut to size. The 12mm was overkill. Using a piece of 10" pipe 1/4" wall as the spacer. I bought a taperlock hub but first decided to see what i could do with the old coupler. Picture sequence tells the tale. Tomorrow i'll bore it for the clutch center.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

more pics:


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Waterjet cut 8mm plates arrived today.


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## peggus (Feb 18, 2008)

I noticed from the picture that the fuse is rated for 500V AC. Does it have a DC rating in the datasheet? If not you shouldn't use it.






jackbauer said:


> Well the controller is almost ready for beta testing. Hopefully by weekend. I picked up a great deal on ebay for 3 x 400amp fuses and holders for less than 20 euros. Prices i had been qouted from electrical suppliers was north of madness! Even US based ev suppliers I looked at on the web were quite expensive. I have one spare so if anyone's interested...... Also picked up a kilovac contactor quite cheap. Guy has a few left:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200399627974&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes fuse is dc rated. Further work on the new adapter plate and coupler. Had a problem with excess runout on the coupler. Turned out one of the bolts was pressing against the side of the clutch center ad forcing it off center Anyway all sorted now with less then 0.05mm runout and runs sweet! Gearbox sounds much better than when I used the jaw coupler. Few videos of the run later......


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good there, Jack.

How have you joined the old coupler with the keyway to the new bit of turned steel to take the clutch centre?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Its bolted through with 4 x m8 high tensile bolts. I admit its not ideal but you wouldn't believe the problems I have trying to get an internal keyway cut. I'm gonna buy this set or broaches as soon as funds allow:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370216092125&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Here's a few vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLpKyxSMSKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDV0hMxfGwQ


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good videos jack.

Now that the coupler is aligned and running quietly are you going to just weld the steel plates to the 10" pipe? while it is in situ?

I guess tack welding and then removing it from the motor and gearbox so that it can be cramped up on the bench to ensure it stays in the right place for finish welding?

Having welded a plate to a pipe like that when I was at welding college, the plate has a habit of pulling as the welds cool meaning the outer faces of the plates are convex and no longer flat. It will be worth taking that into acount as you go.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Appreciate the advice. i've been talking to a friend this evening who is a professional welder and he has advised me to make a series of 5mm spot welds on opposite sides of the pipe and build up the seam in that fashion to avoid distortion. Have to say i'm very happy with the new setup. Looks and sounds 100 times better.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Little stitch welds on opposing sides should be ok.
Just take it slowly so the heat doesn't build up as you work around it.

We used to have to weld horizontal pipe like that all the way around in one go and in all the out of positions that make welding difficult. Then we would slice it up and inspect the welds at the different points around the weld. We had to use stick, mig and tig to achieve proficiency. That was nearly 14 years ago and I don't think I could do it now.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Little stitch welds on opposing sides should be ok.
> Just take it slowly so the heat doesn't build up as you work around it.
> 
> We used to have to weld horizontal pipe like that all the way around in one go and in all the out of positions that make welding difficult. Then we would slice it up and inspect the welds at the different points around the weld. We had to use stick, mig and tig to achieve proficiency. That was nearly 14 years ago and I don't think I could do it now.


 
Under your opinion, to finish a welding of this kind, for a no experinced person with access to a basic small sized stick and a mig equipment, witch wolud be the best tool to accomplish this job?
Would it be necessary to do it from inside and out side to?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

mrbigh said:


> Under your opinion, to finish a welding of this kind, for a no experinced person with access to a basic small sized stick and a mig equipment, witch wolud be the best tool to accomplish this job?
> Would it be necessary to do it from inside and out side to?


It wouldn't take many inches of weld on just the outside for the adapter to be sufficiently srong for the job.
Weld an inch, skip an inch, all the way around would be fine. If the weld has sufficient penetration then one sided would be ok. I would suggest that if your welding experience s minimal then attempting the weld the inside is going to be difficult due to access so don't worry about it.

I'm not a great welder, I took an course when I was unemployed for a while, but I have stick welded a couple of trailers together and made various repairs and modifications to things since then.

Most of my welding experience was mig and stick welding Land Rovers and MGBs more then 10 years before I took the course!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I placed 4 welds per plate at a time about 10mm long 180 degrees oposite , waited 15 mins for everything to cool then same again until its was welded all the way around. Slow progress but no distortion. Used the mig on high heat. I'll post up a few pics later.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I made my own adapter and it looks similar to the pictures. When I welded it the tranny plate warped up like the brim of a Mexican hat -- about 0.060 inches. I machined it flat. That was enough to make my flywheel bolts scrape (clearances are very tight on a Porsche). I make a spacer that fixed it. I learned my lesson there, next time I'll let things cool down between welds. I have some pics here, and more will be available soon: http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/adapter/ .


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

DavidDymaxion said:


> I made my own adapter and it looks similar to the pictures. When I welded it the tranny plate warped up like the brim of a Mexican hat -- about 0.060 inches. I machined it flat. That was enough to make my flywheel bolts scrape (clearances are very tight on a Porsche). I make a spacer that fixed it. I learned my lesson there, next time I'll let things cool down between welds. I have some pics here, and more will be available soon: http://explodingdinosaurs.com/9electric/adapter/ .


.
.
I had been trough your site a while ago and you inspired me to jump onto the electric motor/transmission adapter thing. After fallowing johnbauer's similar job I'm more than ready to start getting my Fe plates for the work.
Last night, at work, I dedicated to render an sketch on "windows paint" of the motor mount, the one I will post a picture later on, in order to have a model to work with and some dimensions to put in place.
I will install it into a type 1, '74 IRS chassis and transmission, I guess that it's similar to your 911 for what I could see.

PS
I would have to do some practice training with the stick and high Amperage in similar materials for the motor plate welding, though


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The short welds work well. Plate never got anymore than lukewarm. Installed today. Drivetrain is absolutely silent on a 12v test. New torque rod tomorrow.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good job, Jack.

It looks well fitted and much more 'streamlined' then the previous heavy engineering set up.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh the old adapter was more "JCB" than "BMW". Anyway installed the torque rod and all the control gear back in place and hooked up. The difference is phenomenal! With the old coupler even at low rpm in neutral , it made a rattling sound. Now it makes no noise at all and no vibration even through the gear stick. I gave it full throttle with no shunt field (only 24v still waiting on my new batts) and got it up to 1600rpm. Thing sounded like a gas turbine winding up!! All was missing was the tick tick tick sound of the igniters I can definatly advise anyone considering a jaw coupler to avoid it. Well worth the time and effort of removing everything to fit the new adapter / coupler. 

In fact it was so quiet that I detected a rumbling from the diff. Got under the car with a brick on the accelerator to narrow it down. Long story short the diff had less than a cup of oil in it due to an incorrectly fitted filler plug. I'd guess someone checked the level at some point and never retightened the filler. Ordered some oil. Hope nothing is damaged!

Now i gotta get back to finishing up the charger and getting it and the batts installed next week.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well with the car back together i decided to finish up the charger. Just some metalwork. Naturally i was short one bolt!!! Will hopefully be installing the charger and batteries this week. Also like to say once more a special thanks to Simon for making the design available. I'll fully document the isolation and igbt drive mods i made if anyone is interested.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Had the same problem welding my mount - use angle pieces and went SLOW..
If I warped it, the trans axle would be off ! Yours looks nice Jack - been watching that charger build... Use Arduino's a lot with LCD screens...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Nice work there dave like the adapter. Upgraded the igbt drive section in the controller today to reduce switching losses. Also began preparing for charger install and ran two conduits from the boot to the engine compartment for the rear batteries. Few vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m04KxFPNqZA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99CjYwGOFNk


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Jack

Have looked at a few of your videos BUT I am in the middle of nowhere and have dialup  Takes about 1 1/2 hours to download one  - but I enjoy them... Looked at part of the cutting hay one last night before it crashed - lol I cut hay at my farm so it caught my eye.....can't believe it crawled on those batteries.... I will look at one of the posts tonight .


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Glad you enjoy them dave! Thats the whole point. I was very surprised at how well it performed on those two batts. Gave me a real boost. Its funny on the day when i started veering into the ditch the phrase "cutting hay" popped into my head. Its a line from an old 70's sci fi book called Fadeout by Patrick Tilley. Very obscure i know Just shows i have a messed up brain!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That new set up sounds really sweet, well worth the effort.

It is interesting to see the revs drop from neutral when the higher gears are selected. Shows the drag in the gearbox.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Battery time! Today i received the first 4 of my traction batteries. Odyssey PC2150 105ah agm. This first batch will be installed on a rack behind the rear seat. Sorry for the bad pics only had phone camera.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Figured you would throw them on and "go mow some hay" 

I like the pics - easy for my dialup lol... Looks good !


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

we'll be cutting hay tomorrow or saturday for sure! need to run some tests on the charger and get everything buttoned up!


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Hi Jack.

Looks really nice. 

How did you made the RPM gauge work? Is that a 4 cylinder tacho?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks cro! yeh its a 4 cylinder tach. I drive it via a standard industrial proximity sensor with a 1k pullup resistor to +12v. I epoxyed 2 little pieces of 6mm round steel to the tail shaft 180 degrees apart to trigger the sensor. once trigered it pull the tach line low. i think if you look back a few pages i posted some pics. 

Today i did a few static runs of the drivetrain from the new odyssey batteries. Phenominal difference. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz0ETQ2tzdw


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That sounds so good!

I wonder what the acceleration will be like on the road in the lower gears?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well solved my shunt field problem. I had the wires backwards so was running differential compound. Not good. Discovered today that it only takes 1 amp of shunt current to keep the motor just below 3000rpm on no load. I'm going to test the shunt field control circuit tomorrow evening.

Charger is up and running now.

Nice thing about electric cars is that they have lots of nice flat surfaces in the engine bay for lunch breaks!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Few updates and the ev gets its first job:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPoYVfAqUBg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1a7EgREVWw


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

You put petrol and an ICE back in your car???


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh was almost sacrilege but i didnt fancy carrying that compressor down the hill and through the mud and i thought hey thats what i have a car for


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a few pics of the charger in operation. First pic is running in bulk mode with a 10amp current limit. Second pic in float mode. I had to limit the charge to 10amps due to the poor mains service where i work on the car. Was actually causing the lights to dim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

So finalised the battery layout. Going for 8 batts in the back of the car with the possibility of two more up front depending on performance at 96v. Also recieved my kats 120v 1500w block heater from US ebay. This type does not have an ac pump. Cost $65 all in. This combined with the little vw 12v coolant pump will provide hot water to the original cabin heater matrix avoiding messing about removing the dash etc. The only other option for a fluid heater being the ridiculously priced mes-dea unit. Plan is to have it setup to run from ac mains power when plugged in for preheat and then transfer to dc power. A simple diode in line with the 240v ac supply will prevent it from overheating.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Congrats on great progress.
Thanks for info on heater solution.
I planed to search for it but now I don't have to any more. 
Regards,
zw


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice ! Keep the pictures coming as the video's take for ever on my dialup 

Waiting for all that real-world data to start flowing!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice heater.

I am still undecided about heating while my dash is still apart. I figured electric air heaters would give a quicker heat time then water heating but with such a small amount of water it may only be a couple of minutes I guess.

Your project will soon be finished by the looks of things.


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## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> SAlso recieved my kats 120v 1500w block heater from US ebay. This type does not have an ac pump. Cost $65 all in. This combined with the little vw 12v coolant pump will provide hot water to the original cabin heater matrix avoiding messing about removing the dash etc. The only other option for a fluid heater being the ridiculously priced mes-dea unit. Plan is to have it setup to run from ac mains power when plugged in for preheat and then transfer to dc power. A simple diode in line with the 240v ac supply will prevent it from overheating.


That does look like a bargain ... that's an AC heater right? Am I right in thinking that it really doesn't care about getting AC vs DC and that since it's 120VAC (RMS) that DC voltage could be a lot higher (120/0.70707 = 170VDC)?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Correct. A heating element is just a water cooled resistor. AC or DC makes no difference. However I will be using a kilovac contactor to control the dc supply to the heater as a normal relay or ac contactor would arc.


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## DC Braveheart (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Correct. A heating element is just a water cooled resistor. AC or DC makes no difference. However I will be using a kilovac contactor to control the dc supply to the heater as a normal relay or ac contactor would arc.


Cool - one (two) more questions. How does the internal thermostat switch the contactor on/off (are you having to rewire it to control a relay to open/close the contactor)? Can you post pictures and wiriing schematic when you're done?

Thanks!


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Jackbauer, congratulations on your build!
Your evalbum entry http://www.evalbum.com/3032 says about 3000€ build cost, can you split that up a little? 
Maybe the Victron bmv602 battery monitor? Sounds like an interesting device.

I am also interested in your modifications to the Open ReVolt controller.
I suppose you built the microcontroller part of it and added an IGBT driver?

An last but certainly not least: Did you get it road legal yet? The NCT (MOT/TÜV in Ireland) might be a challenge itself, but have you found an insurer?

Sorry to be bugging you, but I plan to do a motorcycle conversion to commute into Dublin capable of Motorway speeds with a range of at least 70km: 10kWh Thunderskys, Agni 95 reinforced, approx. 5000€, still saving...

Again: Great build and the Vids are an inspiration!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Marc i'm pleased you've found my build useful. Regards the NCT I have two letters assuring me that it will be tested as normal minus the emissions. They did stipulate that I could not alter the chassis of the car ie cutout the boot floor etc but its no big deal. To be honest I wouldnt have felt comfortable doing that anyway!

A rough breakdown of costs would be:
Car €200
Motor €500
Controller €300
Charger €300
Vac pump , pas pump €100
70mmsq cable , lugs etc €100
Battery monitor €200
Misc bits €200
Batteries (to date) €1500

So to be honest i have busted the budget a bit so it more likely to be near 4k by the time its finished. I'm also unsure what pack voltage i will settle on its a learning curve! If I were doing a bike i'd use two agni motors in series/parallel setup to give good acceleration and top end speed. No point having a slow bike!

I'm nearly finished the battery racks and following some advice i have lined them with rubber. I got some old inner tubes from a local garage and cut them into strips. Then used "tiger seal" polyurethane adhesive to secure them in place. Once it dries I just trim with a sharp knife. Seems to be working out well.

I sourced and albright style contactor for controlling the shunt field. I'm only running at 48v at present so the shunt draws 2.7 amps. When the contactor opens I get two nice lightening bolts between the contacts. Guess it'll be another kilovac! This result sort of backs up my thoughts re using these style of contactor as emergency disconnects.

Also sourced a replacement wing for the passanger side as the former owner (Vin Diesel wannabee) kerbed it big time


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well she's in the bodyshop!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

What colour are you going for?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Metallic black. same as original. Just got lots of scratches etc to fix up. Including the letters "POS" scratched into the bonnet. hmmm ..... what could that stand for .............


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> ... the letters "POS" scratched into the bonnet. hmmm ..... what could that stand for .............


Obvious: Power-On Selftest! Someone was trying to give you some urgent engineering advice, and mustn't have had a pen and paper with them.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Metallic black. same as original.


How about electric blue?


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> How about electric blue?



Just call it electric black, Jack.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

thank you for posting all of your progress pics and viodeo;s. great to see how its done rather than just read theory.
do have one question though. why didn't you go to steer by wire? i know some people say they are dangerous but no one who has flown since 1970 has not been on a place that is not being flown by wire. seems like it would take away a lot of weight.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Coulomb it makes sense now! I had a terrible feeling it may have meant something else

infantry11b thanks for your kind words. Regards steer by wire i'm not in the car manufacturing business but i would be very sure they are beavering away with just that! Myself I like to keep things simple. Rack and pinion steering works. Why reinvent the wheel and make a simple system needlessly complex. I think the whole Toyota debacle has proven this point. What in the world was wrong with the humble throttle cable!!! On that point I see the humble handbrake cable is now under threat. More needless complexity. Your point about fly by wire aircraft is a good one. I participated in a thread on here about emergency disconnects and many people expressed the preference for a physical hand operated disconnect. Quite rightly so. On the other hand , buy a modern car and its now getting to the stage that none of the pedals are physically connected to the systems they control and now neither is the handbrake! Aircraft systems are usually triple redundant and failsafe. Not so with the car.

Anyway enough ranting heres a quick video on progress to date:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4OonnA9T0M


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a few quick photo updates showing the shunt contactor and 50amp "maxi" blade fuse circuit for the mr2 pas pump. So far its not blowing.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Had a chance yesterday to power the charger from an industrial 16amp 240v feed. Pumped 28 amps into the batts on bulk charge. Didn't last long as they were nearly full anyway. Still at least it works!


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

good show - glad it works.
now do you think you could use solar panels to get the generator moving, or maybe wind? my goal is a free ride but its definitelty hard to do.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh i hope to have solar/ wind charging at some point also! 

I'm testing a new version of the controller software right now that has a nice feature. If it sees the throttle at zero but current flowing to the motor (ie a failed power stage) it opens the main contactor and locks out the controller. No more toyota style runaway scenarios. 

I'm also looking at having a hardware implementation of this feature as a redundant backup. Electronics can react a lot faster than human especially a non experienced driver.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

Have you reached a stable point in your (re/co) developement of the $200.00 charger and the Re Volt controller.

I am completly non technical electronically so I cannot judge where you are at.

You were talking about having a board etched for the charger and making your's/Simon's softwear available. I would be more then willing to assist in covering that cost. I'm sure that others would be as well, the same for a pre loaded micro. 

It should be obvious that I would really like to have a single charger to handle the various different voltage setups I have built and am building.

My racing partner has been following your controller rework and wants to do a stripped down version using IGBTs as well, The controller will be used in the new pulling tractor with the 13 inch GE motor we are looking at plus 240 nominal volts and whatever we can draw under load from the 20 plus used Hawkers we will have.

We plan on trying something differentduring a hook, controlling the tire speed (based on track condition) by limiting voltage. Then letting the motor draw amprage as needed to maintain the tire speed until load pulls down the speed/set voltage, then amps and torque will crawl us as far as tire traction will take us. My partner thinks the modified Re Volt controller will do the job.

Anyway sorry to ramble. 

If you decide to have boards etched for the charger and want participation let me (and others) know. I, and maybe others, can pay pal you or Simon something to get the process moving.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Yeh i hope to have solar/ wind charging at some point also!
> 
> I'm testing a new version of the controller software right now that has a nice feature. If it sees the throttle at zero but current flowing to the motor (ie a failed power stage) it opens the main contactor and locks out the controller. No more toyota style runaway scenarios.
> 
> I'm also looking at having a hardware implementation of this feature as a redundant backup. Electronics can react a lot faster than human especially a non experienced driver.


a most excellent piece of information. that is really good.
now what we need is a cheap product that allows us to charge our cars with solar panels at home and not using the grid, unless necessary.
anyone know of a plug in device that would fit after the electric company meter and allow the use of solar to assist in the charging and not flow back into the grid.
where i live they do not allow the grid to get electricity from the public they need a one way valve.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The charger is running quite well and adamj12b has been working on the pcb / redesign for a few weeks now. I havent had the time myself due to other projects. That said i am working on using a serial lcd on the dash to display charger info.

Controller is also working well. Surprisingly so do to very little r&d on my part. I am looking at building a new model around some brand new powerex '09 igbts which have much better characteristics then the '05 models (ex ebay) that i'm currently using. To be honest I believe igbts are the way to go. No offense to anyone but I just dont like the idea of using little TO220 ot TO203 devices to control a car! IGBTs i used have m10 bolt terminals for a reason!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

infantry11b said:


> now what we need is a cheap product that allows us to charge our cars with solar panels at home and not using the grid, unless necessary.
> anyone know of a plug in device that would fit after the electric company meter and allow the use of solar to assist in the charging and not flow back into the grid.
> where i live they do not allow the grid to get electricity from the public they need a one way valve.


My system has both solar and wind and is net metered to the power grid (legally of course.. ) Since I have an inverter it is easy to switch to my chargers onto the outputs of the inverter and less goes to the grid at that time...

You can run everything to the chargers - since you are "not allowed to put electricity from the public"... IF the solar is not up enough - it can be switched (automatically) to the grid... Most inverters can do that...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

So the Bauermobile got its first real run today. 3.3 miles of round town driving with some hill climbs in second. 96v of odysssey pc2150 agm batts ,80v compound wound 11" forklift motor , 72v constant shunt field supply. Graph attached. Heatsink peaked at 35c. Motor runs to about 3200rpm under load and 3500rpm no load.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice little flat -tops on the PW Jack!!


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

infantry11b said:


> a most excellent piece of information. that is really good.
> now what we need is a cheap product that allows us to charge our cars with solar panels at home and not using the grid, unless necessary.
> anyone know of a plug in device that would fit after the electric company meter and allow the use of solar to assist in the charging and not flow back into the grid.
> where i live they do not allow the grid to get electricity from the public they need a one way valve.



there are stand-alone panels now that have invertors built in to each panel... which could be plugged right into your regular charger. BUT they are not cheap, close to $1000 each for around 185 watts max I think.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

engine trouble!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Probably much to the disgust of MR2 owners I completely stripped the ICE into it's component parts and weighed it in as clean aluminum and steel. Got a tidy sum for it as metal prices are high at the moment.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Woodsmith said:


> Probably much to the disgust of MR2 owners I completely stripped the ICE into it's component parts and weighed it in as clean aluminum and steel. Got a tidy sum for it as metal prices are high at the moment.



How much? was it worth the effort?


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

marcexec said:


> How much? was it worth the effort?


I sold my extracted ICE engine for $150 en toto, and got another $40 for radiator/fan, and $20 for starter on craigslist! All the metal (gas tank, exhaust, etc) I think I only got $8 at the scrap yard.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

marcexec said:


> How much? was it worth the effort?


I had a load of other metals to weigh in so it is hard to say what paid how much but would it cover my time? No, not really but I had the time and little else to do with it and so it was worth the effort. 
One advantage was keeping useful nuts and bolts and bits of metal that could be turned or reused.

The aluminium is well worth weighing in but only if all the steel is removed.

It does maintain a good relationship with the scrap yard where I also managed to get a load of 70mm and 120mm cable for the car, the transaxle for the tractor and a shaft drive rear motorbike wheel that is either a project trike or a saleable item on Ebay.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got started laying out the parts for the fluid heater. Filler cap is an ebay purchase from a yamaha bike.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I can't make out the view.

Have you got a schematic of how you are going to do this?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh i'll do up a sketch. CAD ain't my thing! Basically the antifreeze will flow from the bottom of the fillercap to the inlet of the pump , outlet on the pump to the bottom connection on the block heater , top outlet of the block heater to the inlet of the heater matrix , outlet of the heater matrix back to the other connection on the filler cap thus completing the circuit. 

I really should have fitted this system when the engine bay was empty. Easy to say in hindsight but the nature of a budget conversion means things change from day to day.

I'm actually driving the car a few miles a day on private roads. Seems to be working well and surprises me considering the budget nature and that all the normal big price items (controller , charger etc) were homemade on a very limited budget. I dont even think the controller knows the motor is there sometimes! The highest recorded heatsink temp was 35c after 15 minutes of driving up and down a half mile hill climb in ever higher gears!

The charger works a treat. I brought it up to 20amps last week and the 13amp plug got very hot then blew the fuse! We bumped it up to a 32a feed and charged at 30amps with the heatsink topping out at 40c during bulk charge.

I don't regret going clutchless. One main reason is to stop others from reving the motor then letting out the clutch pedal. I find shifting quite easy. If i press the gear lever gently into the gate it gives a little then as the speeds match pops into gear. In fact it jump in all by its self.

So as major work on this project draws to an end i'd like to say a big thanks again to all who helped out both here and on other forums. My biggest lesson has been that a budget ev conversion with decent performance is very possible with time , help and use of the many open source projects for the big ticket items.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

123456789 grin !!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That is a great job jack.
So good to see another EV done, and on a budget. Well done.

I think I will have to start planning for the Paul and Sabrina controller at some point. It will be another component that is non motor/vehicle specific so no loss in having it in advance.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

That controller is really nice and a lot of thought for DIY! I like the way Jack has done his! I am heading that direction on my own version2 - but lol we have to get all the other things done - darn work, and I am coaching 80 middle school kids for track soooo like you NO TIME !!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh the igbts have worked out very well. Far surpassing my expectations. I expected smoke a long time ago! I know a lot of controllers use fets quite well but i just dont like using little to220 devices for hundereds of amps and volts , at least on a diy basis. In fact I recently acquired a non working 2.5kva 12v to 240v sine wave inverter. Give you one guess at the problem ........... blown fets in the power section.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Finished the plumbing on the fluid heater today:


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It will be interesting to see how it works in comparison to those with ceramic heaters.

I wonder what the warm up time will be before defrost/demist.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> It will be interesting to see how it works in comparison to those with ceramic heaters.
> 
> I wonder what the warm up time will be before defrost/demist.


ditto!  Thought you might like to read this:

http://www.saturn.offical.net/EV Hot Liquid Heater to a Ceramic Heater

he switched from hot water to ceramic ...


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

IMO....if you can tolerate the hassle to take it all apart....it seems like ceramic/electric heat of some variety is a really smart way to go. This kind of tells me what I should do in regards to my heating when the time comes to install that.


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## DIGGER11 (Mar 16, 2010)

If you are going to use the air-conditioning then the simple mod to make it reverse cycle is a very simple soultion to heating.


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## procupine14 (Mar 17, 2010)

DIGGER11 said:


> If you are going to use the air-conditioning then the simple mod to make it reverse cycle is a very simple soultion to heating.


Never really thought about that...I suppose it would be almost the same concept as a heat pump for a house then huh?  kind of cool!


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## DIGGER11 (Mar 16, 2010)

Here is the device we use in Aus.

http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=AIR-AC-RCVALVE


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

that is so kool.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Handy if your car has aircon ............ Tested the fluid heater today. Works very well.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well after annoying Paul Holmes for some time i'm now running a modified software that should , in theory at least , prevent a runaway in the event of a failed power stage in the controller. If the software sees the throttle go to zero but more than 10 amps flowing to the motor it opens the main contactor. I've tested it on the bench today and will test in the car next week.

Thanks once again to Paul and everyone involved in the project.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Case anyones interested I'm working on a little dash display.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Is that the Arduino (or similar) I see there?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Amberwolf said:


> Is that the Arduino (or similar) I see there?


yep arduino duemilanove


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Nifty. I want someday to try getting into those; there are so many open projects out there that are kinda close to what I want to do, it seems I ought to be able to take their code and modify it to do what I want, without having to start from scratch. 

Modifying other stuff I'm decent at. Sometimes halfway brilliant.  Doing it totally from scratch I not only suck at, but I am always unmotivated to even really start. 

Yours looks like it might be one of those useful projects, sometime down the line, like the charger you and Simon have perfected.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Case anyones interested I'm working on a little dash display.


LOL Jack looks just like mine! I'll shoot a pic Monday!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

You've been spying on me again Dave. I knew that cable tv van outside my house looked suspicious .............


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL so does this look a bit familiar?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Pesky industrial espionage

Fitted my "mad power springs" yesterday. What a difference! Vehicle has returned to normal ride height. Went from a distance of 617mm from wheel arch to ground to 645mm. Very impressed.

http://www.mad-suspension.co.uk/


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well had a hell of a day. Went for a drive this morning and parking up heard a tick-tick-tick sound from the motor. So bit the bullet and had a friend help me pull it out. Got the com end cap of to a real mess. The brushed were stuck solid with a mess of grime and goo. All cleaned up and advanced now ready to go back tomorrow.

I removed the brush wear indicators and put some pu sealant on the back of the brush box mounting rivits.


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Had a similar failure on our trolling motor. Brushes simply jambed in the holders.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Ouch! thanks for the pictures - makes you think!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

What was the grime and goo from?
Was it just brush dust or was it something else?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Brush dust I reckon.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

So reassembled the motor and it ran like a train. Clackety - clack Had to get the com turned ........Running better than ever now.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Engine overhaul  (so much easier on EV than ICE - lol)


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## david85 (Nov 12, 2007)

Dave Koller said:


> Engine overhaul  (so much easier on EV than ICE - lol)


Dude, you're not kidding!

Glad you got it sorted Jack.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Guys. Seems like the com has been a hidden problem since day one. It was out of round.The guys speculated this was caused by the com end shaft center being out. All bars are now less than 0.01mm runout. This coupled with the sticking brushes and arcing due to brushes set neutral has been a major problem. Now its sorted i'm gonna go for 120v.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The com looks really pretty and shiny now. 

I will have to get my one checked and maybe skimmed. 
It was making a little tick when turning slowly and the brush area looked just like yours did.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> The com looks really pretty and shiny now.
> 
> I will have to get my one checked and maybe skimmed.
> It was making a little tick when turning slowly and the brush area looked just like yours did.


I once cleaned a robot motor with emery cloth and a drill spinning the armature - then used an electronics spray solvent to clean the residue - seated the new brushes and it ran forever  No turning but, well, it worked... and I did it in place lol.......


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> I once cleaned a robot motor with emery cloth and a drill spinning the armature - then used an electronics spray solvent to clean the residue - seated the new brushes and it ran forever  No turning but, well, it worked... and I did it in place lol.......


I'm sure major said, in another thread, 'No emery'. I will look it up and see what he said should be used. I want to try and spin it, somehow, with a dial gauge to see if it is round or not and then clean it.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> I'm sure major said, in another thread, 'No emery'. I will look it up and see what he said should be used. I want to try and spin it, somehow, with a dial gauge to see if it is round or not and then clean it.


*Major is right *- but I cleaned all the residue (real fine SAND type emery or you will short it) but yep got to use the NON conductive grit..... and go easy..


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Dave Koller said:


> *Major is right *- but I cleaned all the residue (real fine SAND type emery or you will short it) but yep got to use the NON conductive grit..... and go easy..


Garnet paper should be ok then, my prefered choice in furniture finishing.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Woodsmith said:


> Garnet paper should be ok then, my prefered choice in furniture finishing.


LOL until Major jumps in I think it would be a good choice..... Furniture King has got an answer to this  .....


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Upgraded to 120v today with two more batteries in the front under the charger. Huge improvement in terms of acceleration and top speed.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Brilliant, have you tested it on the M50 yet?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Good one Jack - range any better with more volts?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good stuff.

So what is your speed and range potential now?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well i figure it'll do up near 70mph now. Had it to 50 and still plenty of gears and throttle to go. Range won't be great. The odyssey is a heavy battery and only 105ah so i reckon 25-30 miles max. Its saving grace is mega amps and almost no sag. Doing a hill climb yesterday at 130amps the pack sat at 122v.

Have'nt been on a motorway yet as i want to bed in the brushes and work out any bugs.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

So little bit of an update. Car is driving daily now approx 12 miles which leaves the pack at approx 60% soc. Tax book now lists power as electric and my annual road tax went from 455 euros to 146. That was a very easy process and the woman at the taxation office didnt blink an eye just filled out and stamped a new book. Insurance took a bit of wrangling so i gave up on the phone and got a broker friend to do the legwork. week later all sorted.

Longest drive has been 27 miles to 30%. Here's a few videos of a recent test drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MtCwhEfS-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma8dOvgfjU4

The big hurdle is gonna be on sept 9th. National car test (NCT). I've been corresponding with them for almost a year now and finally got permission to visit the test center and explain the nature of the car to the center manager. That went well and the guy confirmed its the first ev conversion to be tested in Ireland. So wish me luck guys cause , knowing this country , it could all end very quickly.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> That went well and the guy confirmed its the first ev conversion to be tested in Ireland.


That in itself is really something, to be the first.

Good luck with it, I hope it all goes well.

I am surprised that you still have a 'tax' to pay.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

The FIRST in Ireland - 
I think it's a great honor and should be written into
Irish history!!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Problem is considering Irish history that may not be such a good thing.

As far as i know this guy was the first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmAd-0lzwc4

but back then we didnt have nonsense rules and regulations about damn near everything


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

My grandfather (an Irish peace officer!) Used to say the same thing - and this was in the 40's .....


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well the results are in! Did the test last night and failed. Nothing to do with the ev parts just a stupid suspension ball joint and my own stupidity for securing all the traction batteries but not the 12v accessory battery. I have to say the guys at the testing center were great. The whole place ground to halt for almost half an hour as all the center staff and even a few customers came over to see the car.

So now once again BMW = Big Money Worries. €92 for a wishbone and balljoint. Although the offside front brake passed its quite bad so I had a look today. Caliper is seized on one side and one pad is worn to nothing. So another €39 for front brake pads.............Anyone that says parts don't earn money............


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

In many ways, well done!

At least the parts that failed were parts that would have needed fixing anyway and not to do with the conversion.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

So, when is your re-test?
And if it works out, are you the (presently) only EV-owner in IRE? At least of 4-wheel DIY type? 
I will not count the REVAs that are sold in Blackrock...
They are somehow cute, though.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Woody , thanks for that. Been a long road. Pun intended. Just looking on youtube i did the first video almost a year ago exactly. 

Marc , i've not booked the retest yet as i only ordered the bits today. I'll have em on monday but i'm away with work for a few days so probably week after next. NCT head office did tell me that it was the first time they have tested a diy ev conversion. I think there is one Tesla in Ireland. Revas are ok but not my idea of a car. I dont like the idea of giving nissan or mitsubishi 35k when i could do better myself for half that cost.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

As we used to say Jack - BUMMER!! 

I am sure it will get resolved!! and now you have an "in" at the test place lol...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

On returning from the test i noticed a constant 4 amps of draw from the pack even with the throttle off. My shunt field contactor had welded closed. No big deal as i could drive the short distance required on the series field alone.I did notice that the car responded VERY differently to the throttle but was too tired to think too much on the subject. On saturday i decided to do a little experimentation with no shunt field. took off in second. i had to add the throttle much more progeresivly and as i did so i noticed the rpms winding up much higher and the acceleration was much more constant. hmmmm. so went out on the main road which has a very steep hill climb up to a roundabout. Normally i'd do this in 4th at maybe 35mph and 200 amps. Slow but ok. 

Well i got my socks blown off. As i added throttle the amps just climbed , the rpms climbed ,the speed climbed. I had to back off the power when i hit 60mph and 3500rpm and she still wanted to go! At one point the bmv600 current readout displayed OVLD. This only happens at 550amps. I had to look it up! 

Thought ok sod this and hit the motorway. Previously i could just get 60mph on the flat. Today I let off when the speedo hit 70! and was still accelerating. My concern was motor rpm. 

I've ordered a solid state relay and some various resistor values so as i can play with low shunt currents. I know i need a pwm type control but just dont have time with work pressures. Making me think that ideally i'd need some sort of inverse throttle control for the shunt.

any advice and thoughts most welcome.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I've ordered a solid state relay and some various resistor values so as i can play with low shunt currents. I know i need a pwm type control but just dont have time with work pressures. Making me think that ideally i'd need some sort of inverse throttle control for the shunt.


Sod that! Just get one of those big red switches on the gearstick like Mad Max!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

lmao! I love that movie. Ya gotta figure that in a real mad max world that car would have been a solar charged ev ...........battling hordes of electric motorcycles


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Couldn't see that being as exciting though, a bunch of people fighting for a bit of sunlight or a few LiFePo cells!

Seriously though, with the right set up you would have a great kickdown boost.
Maybe a switch marked 'Warp Speed' or 'Improbability Drive'.


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## major (Apr 4, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> On returning from the test i noticed a constant 4 amps of draw from the pack even with the throttle off. My shunt field contactor had welded closed.


Hi jackb,

Did you have a freewheeling diode across the shunt field? Might have saved your contactor 

Anyway, the performance difference which you describe is what I'd expect with the absence of the shunt field. From memory, I think you had the shunt field over excited to start with. By cutting it out all together, you get less flux across the board, meaning more current for similar torque, but higher RPM at that torque.

If you like this performance better and worry about overspeed, you might try about 1/4th the shunt field current. A variable shunt field sounds like the ticket.

Regards,

major

ps....You might want to recheck commutation with the different field.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

major said:


> Did you have a freewheeling diode across the shunt field? Might have saved your contactor


Doh! No i didnt! Seems obvious now I'm gonna try a few experiments with low current then go variable at some point.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just back from the retest and the result is ...........ambiguous!. The result sheet lists every test as pass and the guy said I passed then at the bottom it says : Test result : Fail. Questioned the guy and he said my certificate would be mailed out to me as they could not issue one there and then as its an ev ..............Right now my bs radar is on full alert. I had a nasty feeling it would'nt be this easy. I'll call the head office in the morning and see what i can find out. At best its just some roundabout procedure. At worst they are thinking up a reason to refuse to issue the certificate. Magic word being "safety".


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Sounds a bit weird to me! You passed but hmmmmmmmm.... It is either SAFE or NOT....




Let us know.... ( Print your own lol)


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Sounds odd to me.

Maybe it could be that the system isn't set up to test EVs and will pass you for everything they can test but fails because the ICE is missing and so missing certain ICE test entries.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Woody you could well be right. I spoke to them this morning and was told to call back on monday. An email went unanswered. Typical.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok time for an update. Spent the last 10 days playing phonetag with nct. Everytime i'm promised a return call later in the day that never happens. Still no certificate. Sent a registered letter to them last monday. Still no response. Looking like i'll have to get serious. Complaints dept then get a solicitor invloved if necessary. I've attached the inspection report. All tests listed as passed yet overall result is failure. 

I guess this is what comes with being the first. Sad thing is i expected no less.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That just sucks!

Looks like a refusal more then a fail as it didn't fail on anything. Common sense says that they should be obliged to explain why it is refused. But when has common sense prevailed in anything legislative?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

Remember you are dealing with bureaucrats (sp?) who's primary function is to protect their place at the public trough, not do anything not preapproved, documented and covered by so many confusing rules and regulations that they can say "it's not my fault". Thinking is something they only do at home . . . if there.

Not one of them is going to venture an approval, they will either kick it upstairs or go by the old standby, it's easier to refuse approval then it is to explain why they did.

It is going to take a commitee to get this approved. That way they can all say it wasn't me.

Good luck, try going to the press. If you embarass them enough you might get some action.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

You got it in one Jim. Exactly whats happening. I have to play them at their own game for a while with the letters etc but then it will be press time.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

After what you deem a reasonable time - a letter writing campaign demanding an explanation from the people on the forum might help... Even a few of us Yanks ...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Dave but things are looking up. Got a call this evening from head office to say the certificate is in the post. They say they only got my original letter today despite my having proof of delivery from the post office for last tuesday! Anyway fingers crossed it'll be here tomorrow! Thanks for the support.


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## dawnpatrol (Jul 11, 2010)

I have been through a lot of your build videos..its nice to get them in good quality..very informative.

Have you found it difficult to get insurance, being the first EV in Ireland and all that?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good news Jack, hopefully it will be correct when it arrives.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

It's not quite the first ev in Ireland but it is the first conversion to have ever gone through the testing process. As far as i'm aware its also the only homebuilt conversion on the road. Sadly. I know a few people who are doing builds some of whom i'm helping. 


Insurance was arranged by a broker friend. I didn't even bother approaching companies myself as it would have been a complete waste of time. So if all is well with the cert tomorrow then thats the last of the bureaucratic hurdles and i'm street legal. 

I recently had a dual tarrif electricity meter installed for cheap night rate power and built a home "charging station". Just a 32amp supply , contactor and an immersion timer! Makes me laugh when i see all these crazy charging poles and stations with flashing blue leds and price tags that cost more than my entire conversion!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Here is my crossed fingers lol....


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

GOT IT! Only gripe is its only valid for one year. Usually 2 years. No big deal.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Fantastic ! 

The luck of the Irish!


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## Harold in CR (Sep 8, 2008)

Well done from start to finish. Congratulations


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

That's great news! 

I've been following your threads with great interest and have learnt a lot from your mistak...... I mean... Exploits! 

As a fellow Irishman (living and working in England now  ) I understand how stupid the systems are and how different it is to the rest of Europe / UK (I'm from the North by the way, so the "UK?" paperwork is just plain daft).

Anyway... Congrat's on the paperwork. I look forward to reading more.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for the support folks. Getting that little 4" square of paper into the windscreen was more work than machining the coupler and adapter plate!

I purchased a cellog 8s for doing tests on the headway cells for the bike project. On friday i hooked it up to the accessory battery for the 12 mile drive to work. As I don't currently use a dc dc converter I was interested to see how the odyssey pc1500 accessory battery was holding up. With the darker mornings I will have to use the side lights when driving to work. But as they are led it should still work out ok.

The rise in voltage near the end was when i stopped at a petrol station to get a sandwich and check tyre pressures


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok can you guys check my maths here cos something can't be right. So i'm messing about with a few headway cells for the bike project and got to thinking....16ah cells can easilly sustain a 150amp discharge so a 4p pack could easilly support a 500amp acceleration for say 10 seconds.

So a 45s4p pack of 16ah cells would yeild 144v and 64ah. Little over 9kwh. Cells weigh about 400g each so pack weighs 72kg. Throw in the cell blocks and links call it 80kg.

Right now i'm running 120v of 10 odyssey pc2150 agms. At 80% dod thats about 9.6kwh. This weighs a whopping 340kg!

So i can dump a massive 260kg and achieve the same (if not better due to the weight loss) performance from the car. Allowing for the loss of the 10 gallon petrol tank then the car would come in at stock weight if not a little less. Picking up an extra 24v would also help top end rpm.

At 23usd per cell i'm looking at $4140. At current exchange rate thats about 3k euros. In or about the cost of the odysseys.


Most importantly that pack can be easilly expanded as funds allow. so...........what am i missing??


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Congratulations, Jack.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

That seems about right and is the exact reason I'm going to use headways. Light weight, high power, decent energy density. (just curious where you found them for $23/cell that's a good price... Direct from Headway??)



jackbauer said:


> Ok can you guys check my maths here cos something can't be right. So i'm messing about with a few headway cells for the bike project and got to thinking....16ah cells can easilly sustain a 150amp discharge so a 4p pack could easilly support a 500amp acceleration for say 10 seconds.
> 
> So a 45s4p pack of 16ah cells would yeild 144v and 64ah. Little over 9kwh. Cells weigh about 400g each so pack weighs 72kg. Throw in the cell blocks and links call it 80kg.
> 
> ...


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Most importantly that pack can be easilly expanded as funds allow. so...........what am i missing??


Jack,

I don't know about the math, it seems right.

The part you are missing is the never to be damned enough need for a BMS system that can as much as double the cost of the battery pack.

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh that price is direct from headway. To be honest i'm blown away by this.

Edit : sorry Jim just saw you post. BMS? sod that! I'll just do my Jack Rickard impression


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## Alexander_B (Oct 19, 2010)

3k for a 9 kwh pack of performance lithium? can I have some too?  I'll contact headway in a few days.. do want!


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Yeh that price is direct from headway. To be honest i'm blown away by this.


Jack does that price include all of the extras. . . Shipping, Import Duty, sales taxes. whatever other fees the governments can steal from us.



jackbauer said:


> Edit : sorry Jim just saw you post. BMS? sod that! I'll just do my Jack Rickard impression


I've pretty much came to the same conclusiton for the pulling tractor. 

After reading your maths, I'm going to have to look at the larger cells from a cost per watt perspective and their high draw specifications, before I commit to the 8 ah power cells. I still haven't got confermation that those cells can really maintain a 200 amp rate for 15 seconds.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim i can probably get them via work so that would eliminate a lot of the tax / import problems. 

The p cells can't do 200amps for 15 seconds. They can do 240!!!!!!! I've also loaded the 16ah cells to 200amps for 10 secs.I'll post a few cellog files of the results.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Jim i can probably get them via work so that would eliminate a lot of the tax / import problems.


I've been trying to get ahold of Lorraine to get some quotes, no luck yet.



jackbauer said:


> The p cells can't do 200amps for 15 seconds. They can do 240!!!!!!! I've also loaded the 16ah cells to 200amps for 10 secs.I'll post a few cellog files of the results.


Thanks for the information. That pretty much locks me into the P cells. Now all I need is a good source and price. I have the money for 100 and am squeezing the pennies to get enough for 150.

I had a think on balancing,charging of these cells. I'm in no way electronically inclined so this may be a no go. 

What do you think of individual cell chargers using a single DC/DC isolated power supplies? I have seen units that are rated at 500 miliamps, various volts in and 3.7 volts out. Instead of the zeners and resistors on a board most of the top balancers seem to be, mount one of these with a bit of control circuitry to open the power supply to the unit when the cell is charged. One for each cell either onboard or off board


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## Alexander_B (Oct 19, 2010)

Jimdear2 said:


> I've been trying to get ahold of Lorraine to get some quotes, no luck yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, that would be the way to go, have a little board with some brains per cell group (under and overcharge), and some way of charging either all the cell banks seperately, or one big charger and charge-bypass-resistors per cell-group.


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Ok can you guys check my maths here cos something can't be right. So i'm messing about with a few headway cells for the bike project and got to thinking....16ah cells can easilly sustain a 150amp discharge so a 4p pack could easilly support a 500amp acceleration for say 10 seconds.
> 
> So a 45s4p pack of 16ah cells would yeild 144v and 64ah. Little over 9kwh. Cells weigh about 400g each so pack weighs 72kg. Throw in the cell blocks and links call it 80kg.
> 
> ...


Well, looking over your maths, you're dropping a 9kwh pack for a 9kwh pack at the same voltage. You would get MUCH better performance (Due to lightness, and capability of higher draw without peukert effect dropping voltage). It would cost approximately the same as the pack you are dropping, and last 10x longer.


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

CroDriver is using Headways for his pack:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17263&start=0
or here on DiYEC with his build thread, a few pages in:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forum...ject-28287p7.html?highlight=crodriver+headway


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well i'm putting the wheels in motion. pun intended. The biggest problem is actually dealing with the Chinese companies. I do this daily in work and its a very daunting task. They respond to emails in an ad hoc manner sometimes dodging questions and requests in ways that would make the most slippery politician green with envy.

In any event i'm now determined to get the cells but i guess this problem is what keeps a lot of people using lead acid. Last year when i was looking at batteries the convenience of just calling into a local business and seeing the product and getting advice etc was the clincher.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

I know what you are saying, it almost seems like they don't want your business.

Unless my partner comes up with a super deal elsewhere, I plan on buying from a reputable US based company. Their price right now is $18.50 per cell at the quantity I'll be buying. This way there is no hassel. I haven't seen what the warrenty will be since I plan on competition.

Did want to ask you one thing, when you loaded your headways to over 200 amps what was the sag voltage at the end or at 15 seconds.

Be well,
Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim as far as i can remember it was at the end. I'll do another test with the cellog in place and post the graphs.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

Wonderful, thanjks I'll be waiting with bated breath, still take your time, do it when you can. I bet others will be waiting as well.

Jim


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Jack,
> 
> Wonderful, thanks I'll be waiting with bated breath, still take your time, do it when you can. I bet others will be waiting as well.
> 
> Jim



Yep, sometimes through the night... 0:24 here
was stuck in croracers thread, only found it today, no yesterday 

I'd better go and dream of EVs now


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Had my first "breakdown" this evening. Leaving work I got in , switched on ,seatbelt on, main contactor closed , into reverse , handbrake off , press accelerator and ........nothing. 

Amongst smart comments from my colleagues (like "need a push start?" etc) i checked the controller. Amber led was blinking indicating a problem. Fortunatly I had the laptop so i quickly hooked up the serial cable and fired up rtd explorer. High pedal lockout alarm was active. tried recycling the power but still the same. Thorttle position was reading 2 counts above where it should be. Switched off and examined the throttle body. Cycled it a few times and tried again. This time success. Drove home no problems.

At a guess i'd say the tps might be a bit flaky. To be fair it had 107k miles on it before ev usage. I might have to bite the bullet and order a replacement from my local highwayman ...*cough* ...i mean friendly BMW main dealer. ......that gives me an idea. I might ask them to fit it!!!! Well worth an hours main dealer labor charge just to see the faces!

I'm making a bit more progress with headway. I'm more determined than ever to shed the lead. I still think i've screwed up the sums somewhere.....


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## sweetleaf78 (Oct 29, 2010)

You can test the trace quickly on your scope. Just pop the little cover off and you can clean it.


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## sweetleaf78 (Oct 29, 2010)

Also they're pretty universal you can get something much cheaper than a BMW part. If you pull it off and get a pic of the shaft I can probably tell you what works or a couple other companies sell cheap units that are bolt on.


Or, you could just skip the whole TB/cable and mount one right on the pedal.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks I might give that a try. I've looked at some "drive by wire" pedals but most are quite expensive. It'll have to take a back seat until i get the headway pack sorted.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Cue James Bond villain evil laugh :

"Good bye. Mr.Lead. Muhahahahahahaha"


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## ThWongs (Sep 4, 2010)

WoW! Looks like it's going to be a very big torch! 

Seriously... This is going to be one very cooooool BMW. Maybe the first one.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well its official. I'm going lithium. Just dropped a little under 2k on headway cells. Should be with me in a week or two. Then i gotta build a pack ......

On a more trivial issue i've been continuing to upgrade all the lights in the car to led. Biggest problem so far is the indicators. The leds are great but don't draw enough current for the flasher to work properly. Sorta sounds like i got a blown bulb! So i've ordered a replacement electronic flasher unit......


Although i don't hold out much hope i've ordered two of these led headlights:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290444456107&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Have you found any issues with Type Approval on the LED fog lights?

I've heard about the indicator problem before on a Land Rover forum, but if you are not going to be towing a trailer with filament bulbs then that won't be a problem.

Good luck with the Headways.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Well its official. I'm going lithium. Just dropped a little under 2k on headway cells. Should be with me in a week or two. Then i gotta build a pack ......


Jack,

What cells and how many did you order? I'm assuming that the 2k cost you mention are pounds or euros. Does that include all duties, taxes and shipping?

I went for 155 of the 30126P cells. Total cost to me, less domestic shipping, was just under 3k USD. Haven't decided on 50S/3P or 38S/4P.

How are you going to configure/build your pack. Are you planing on using their snap blocks and buss bars or are you going to make something of your own. I've been looking at CroDriver's pack and wonder about cooling. Even their snap blocks look like they might have cooling proplems.

What is your feeling on the parallel connections. Are you just going to tie in at the start/finish of each serial string, or do you plan on cross connecting more often. I've been thinking of cross connecting at each parallel group to give as many paths as possible to help reduce any resistance. You're pretty sharp at this stuff, what do you think?

Be well,
Jim

PS.
The image below is the 13 inch motored tractor. I included it because I just got the Windows 7 box's operating system reloaded and wanted to see if I could finally include a photo.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice Jim!!! 

Jack - you rich Irishman - someday I will get to the "official" point also, so you know I will be tracking your progress!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim it work out about 2k euros with shipping for 100 of the 16ah 40160s cells. I was able to order them through work and loose the taxes and duties that way. I need a total of 180 cells but the 100 will get me started. Otherwise christmas would have eaten up the money i'd saved.

I'm still looking at construction options for the pack and I think i'd be inclined to cross connect each parallel block. Once i get the cells next week i'll be better able to get things sized. I'm not much good with drawings etc i kinda need to see the thing.

Dave i'm far from rich had to do some major savings and budget cuts!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Started doing some thinking on the headway pack. Decided on 4 plates separated by aluminium round bar and pulled together with 10mm treaded rod. Thanks to adam for the cad drawings. Plates are 10mm delrin or polycarb 270mm x 750mm.

In other news I was stopped by the police today and spent about 15 minutes showing the ev to the cops while about 50 cars sped through the roadblock. Only in Ireland...........


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well today is the 1 year anniversary of the first ev test drive of the BMW. For anyone that missed that cinematic epic here it is digitally remastered for your enjoyment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CBrDa4iZnQ

oh will have headway cells on monday. Now if anyone would have told me a year ago .........................


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Happy Birthday EVBMW!

And the Headways are a nice present as well!


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

many congrats to you.
but I had to laugh because it made me think of the dog that runs to the fence to run outside and looking at all the traffic, runs back into the house.
but you did a great job.
what we need now is a charging system that does not put further strains on an electric infrastructure that is already close to brownouts and rationing; and then there is the battery issue.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Well today is the 1 year anniversary of the first ev test drive of the BMW.


Congratulations and many happy returns 



jackbauer said:


> Oh will have headway cells on monday.


Hope you start a thread on the battery testing and buildup, we should be getting ours in about 2 to 3 weeks. Prefer that you make the mistakes first.

Them little suckers is expensive.



jackbauer said:


> Now if anyone would have told me a year ago .........................


I know what you mean. Two years ago I gave up on finding an affordable turbine APU I could use to power a tractor, so I started researching Electric. And I thought turbines were expensive 

Ain't we havin' fun,
Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got my first big delivery of headway cells today. Unfortunatly i'm stuck in a lousy hotel right now as i'm away with work.. Seperated from my car and my cells. Very annoying.

Got a price on the plastic cell holders from my cnc guys at the weekend. Bit expensive so i might look at some alternatives. I kinda need to have the cells there to play with to help me see the layout.

Not sure if i should start another thread about the cell pack design etc but if enough people think i should .......


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hey! Happy Birthday!
I'm sorry I missed it.

I think a thread just on the pack would make it easier to search for for those who are just interested in the pack in the future.

What you could do is place a link here to the thread on the pack and then place a link at the start of the pack thread back to here so that people can see where it is all from and relating to.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> .
> Not sure if i should start another thread about the cell pack design etc but if enough people think i should .......


Sounds reasonable...


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Got my first big delivery of headway cells today. Unfortunatly i'm stuck in a lousy hotel right now as i'm away with work.. Seperated from my car and my cells. Very annoying.
> 
> Got a price on the plastic cell holders from my cnc guys at the weekend. Bit expensive so i might look at some alternatives. I kinda need to have the cells there to play with to help me see the layout.
> 
> Not sure if i should start another thread about the cell pack design etc but if enough people think i should .......


 
Start a new thread! And post the info here too, you will probably get a lot more input/help in a seperate thread about headway cells. Perhaps I'll even sketchup something to represent my idea of battery pack design for my headways with integrated individual cell chargers.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The plates for the cell pack are being waterjet cut next week. In the mean time i decided to sort the indicator rapid flashing problem after upgrading to leds. Typically , bmw use a custom flasher relay and the ebay replacement i had bought didn't fit. So i opened up the bmw relay. It uses a strip of resistance wire of about .1 ohms to measure the lamp current. If the current is below a certain value the circuit goes into "blown bulb" mode and flashes faster than normal. I took the easy option and made two little nicks in the wire strip with a dremel to effectively increase its resistance. Problem solved.

I also drove home on led headlights this evening. Was very impressed. I have left the main beams as halogen for safety sake. Typically , i don't need to use them very often.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a few teaser pics of the delrin cell holder plates. Just arrived today. Copper busbars will be done next week. This lithium game ain't half expensive. So much for a budget ev .


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

Don't these cell holders waste a lot of space? The batteries seems so far away from eachother. Or do they need so much air?


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## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

Damn, I do nice design's. lol Im glad they came out so well. I was excited to see them with cells and not just in 3D on the computer.

-Adam


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Jan said:


> Don't these cell holders waste a lot of space? The batteries seems so far away from eachother. Or do they need so much air?


That is interesting, the headway plastic holders put the cells a few mm apart. That also mean a whole lot more buss bar material required to connect them all as well, increasing weight and resistance. Perhaps there is good heating/cooling rational behind it. Enlighten us Jack?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Big thanks due to Adam for the design and cad work. Couldn't have done it without you.

The design of the cell block is based on a few observations , results of tests and simple economics. To answer the points raised so far yes the cells are spaced much further apart than the headway supplied holders. Obviously from that pack size and , to a lesser extent , interconnect distance increases.

I dont actually care about the pack being a bit bigger than normal. Just not a problem in my application as i'm not building a dragster. The cells do heat up on discharge and also a little when on charge. I don't want to create any hot spots. During some of my destructive tests i have observed cell casings rupture and spew flames and gases. Having some additional spacing can't hurt for this contingency. On a simpler note that extra area allows for easier access for cell monitoring. 

The pack design also enables easy connection in the desired config. 45s4p. And the final reason being that headway could not supply 4 way busbars and cell holders at the time of order!


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Looks nice Jack! You got me thinking


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here a few pics of a quick trial assembly. Sadly due to messing about with the profile cutting company , it looks like i won't have the copper busbars until new year. Highly annoying as I had planned to assemble the pack over Christmas.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Here a few pics of a quick trial assembly. Sadly due to messing about with the profile cutting company , it looks like i won't have the copper busbars until new year. Highly annoying as I had planned to assemble the pack over Christmas.


Jack,

It does seem that there is always going to be something that keeps us from doing what we want when we want. Always somebody else's fubar and we end up sitting on our butt twiddling out thumbs.

I going to be doing my Headway pack using the Headway blocks (when they finally get here) after the first of the year as well. I deided on the more compact format just because of space limits. Since we will only be stressing the batteries for 15 to 20 seconds cooling will not be as much of a problem.

Because you seerm more interested in long term battery heating/cooling I thought you might find this link interesting.

http://www.robfin.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx

This is a US based company near my home that you can use for product reference and specs. I'm sure that there should be someone doing something similar over on your side of the pond.

It looks like they can make up flat sections of fin sets that can be wrapped around cells and clipped together to make tubes

I have a question for you as well. What material and length stud are you using between batteries and how are you controling depth to prevent the stud from blocking the burst disc?

Have a great holiday,
Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim, what i'm going is using an m6 x 12 grub screw tightened down into the negative end cap. This is a blind hole so it doesnt matter if the screw bottoms out. The the positive end is screwed onto the remaining 4mm of stud so it cant ever get too far into the positive end. I may end up using m6 x 16 when the busbars turn up.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

We got copper...........300 euros worth


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> We got copper...........300 euros worth


Ohhhhhhhhhhhh Shiny.

We bought a bunch of the Headway plates and snap togeather blocks to put our battery togeather. I'm jealous

How thick is the material? Apologies if you have already posted the info. I ask because I'm not too happy with the quality of the Headway stuff and just might buy some copper myself.

Do you plan on tinning the buss bars?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The middle and bus plates are 1.5mm thick. I got double the required number of bus plates so i can go for 3mm is necessary. The pos and neg final busbars are 6mm.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a video detailing the plan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTWjGRZ5N60


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Figured it was time to work off some of that turkey today so decided to do a few hours in the workshop. Pictures tell the tale. The company that was supposed to supply the aliminium tubes for the corners let me down badly. Not wanting to be held up any further i improvised spacers by parting off some 20mm pvc electrical conduit on the lathe to 200mm. Will do the job until the aluminium eventually arrives.

On another note i had a nasty little surprise last week. Went on a detour one morning on the way to work to pick up some items at a shop. Added a few extra miles to the normal 12 mile trip to work. On the last mile the abs abd airbag lights came on and the brake and power steering pumps were very slow. Just as i pulled into the parking spot at work , the controller shutdown. My odyssey pc1500 accessory battery didnt like the added drain. Not surprising really as it runs the pas and brake pumps along with all the 12v systems. I didnt think it would die before the traction pack which in hindsight is silly.

I have four 100ah thundersky cells that i bought during summer for testing so , once the lead is removed , i can drop them into the front battery rack and use them for the 12v systems. Should be a big improvement. I ordered a 20amp chennic charger with a 14.2v cv point for $95usd all in.

Oh and Merry Christmas everyone


----------



## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Is that pack to sit with cells horizontal, or vertical?

If horizontal, I can imagine that vibrations along their lengths will not be equal, and they'll "wave" along the length of the 4-cell cylinder, with the cell endpoints as "pivots". It will be very minute movements, but eventually it could cause the terminals to fail.

If each cell had two of those plates supporting it (one near each end) it would probably be stiffer, as long as the plates themselves are prevented from doing the same vibration dance.


If the cells will be vertical, I don't think it'll have the same kind of problem.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The cells will be horizontal and i think you made a good point. I will have steel supports under the plastic holders so that should help. Up to 48v now :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAWg9fYjQuw


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice looking pack developing there, jack.

What precautions have you taken to prevent corrosion between the two 3mm link plates at the ends?

I noticed that you have taken a few jolts from the pack while building it. Would it be safer to leave out the link plates until all the cells are in place? It would limit the voltage to that string only and the dangerous bits would be at different ends of the pack.

When I helped set up the 153 x 200ah pack we kept the strings electrically parted to prevent the voltages getting too high until ready. We then used fuse wire to link the whole pack for final voltage testing before tranferring it into the car.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> The cells will be horizontal and i think you made a good point. I will have steel supports under the plastic holders so that should help. Up to 48v now :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAWg9fYjQuw


Jack,

Just a comment on the flexing problem. We are building a battery very similar to yours (ours will be 50S/3P (HOO RAY arriving Jan 4)) but are using the Headway snap together blocks. We decide to place one block at each extreme end of the stick and then one block at each joint. In our 5 battery string that equals 6 blocks. Since the headway blocks have a built in positioning shoulder all that is necessary is to make it rigid is to cut off the four pins and drill through and run 10-24 threaded rod where support and tension is needed. We are using almost the same strapping as you which should also give some ridgity.

If you were to add one more board to your layout and position each board at the end of a battery as close as posible to each joint, then add a rigid bottom and side (clear plexiglass??) I don't think flexing would be a concern

Have a great New Year
Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

To be honest i'm making this up as i go along. So anything is possible. Just this morning finished the 72v section. Will be testing in the car soon.


----------



## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi,

related to the vibrations, if the support of the cells is equidistant, you will enable lower frequency modes of vibration then with a support that is not equidistant.

Example:
-"cellbeam" (e.g. the 4 cells connected) only supported at the ends enables lowest eigenmode and all higher modes
- adding a support in the middle constraints the lowest mode (the bending mode), but allows the second vibrationmode (a sort of wave) as wel as all higher modes that have a zero amplitude in the middle.
- now moving this central support out of the middle, will not only constraint the lowest mode, but likely also the second and maybe even higher modes, the trick is to place the support in a non-even division of the length of the beam.

In general, higher modes will not be exitated as easily as lower modes. However, if a mode is close to a vibrationfrequency that is present in the car (e.g. from some rotating part, or from driving), that might be exitated fairly strongly, even when it is a higher mode. This is the rattle that we know so well from our cars when they get a bit older.

So my advice, do not place the 2nd and 3rd support on equal distances from the end supports.

Regards,


Huub



jackbauer said:


> The cells will be horizontal and i think you made a good point. I will have steel supports under the plastic holders so that should help. Up to 48v now :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAWg9fYjQuw


----------



## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Headways are in ...............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T47VNgnFjE4


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Wayhey!

The back of the car does look high. Maybe get some big rubber to fill the arches and make it a hotrod?

Well done.

It is good to see what you look like too, I can momentarily put a face to a name.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

That was just an actor I hired to play the part. Its crazy now light the whole thing feels. Even with a much lower traction voltage i just have to tip the accelerator.........when i get to 156v........


----------



## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I guess it feels like the three big guys just got out the back.

How does the full pack capacity compare to the LA pack? Any thoughts as to the potential range difference?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but since youve revealed the guy in the videos is an actor, maybe you should combine all of your videos into a movie, put it on a disc and place it with a distribution company. You can be the famous writer/director/producer/camara man.

Seriously, I'm on wireless modem so the load pause is about 5 seconds for every 3 seconds of play. I know others have a similar problem. If you ever have some free time, (does that ever happen) if you could put them all in sequence on a DVD I would be willing to pay. You have a lot of good information in there but watching it in snippets is so painful I usually don't. 

By the way nice job, I cant wait to get to building our Headway pack. Keep us up to date on specs/trials/tribulations as you progress.

Be well,
Jim


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

Jimdear2 said:


> Seriously, I'm on wireless modem so the load pause is about 5 seconds for every 3 seconds of play. I know others have a similar problem. If you ever have some free time, (does that ever happen) if you could put them all in sequence on a DVD I would be willing to pay. You have a lot of good information in there but watching it in snippets is so painful I usually don't.


You could always hit pause as soon as the video appears, and wait for the red part of the playback bar to get to about half way (Or even further if needs be) to build up a larger buffer. It does mean you won't be getting the instant gratification of watching it right then and there, but you won't have to wait... for... the... lo... ad... ing... to... fin... ish... in... fits... and... sta... rts...

Out of interest, why did you choose to place the cells in a square grid, Mr. Bauer? Wouldn't a hex grid enable you to fit more cells in less space? Or was that merely convenience's sake to make the parallel strings easier to work with?

And, given the size of the pack, have you thought about hiding the cells deeper in the car, under fenders and around edges, or even in a flat pack on the underside of the car, or under the rear seats? It looks like you'd have the space, and it'd really help the car look "stock". Especially having your boot back.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ultimately its gonna be a 9.8kwh pack which is small for a car but its what i can get and can afford right now. The lead acid was 12kwh but only about 8kwh useable due to peukert. The longest distance i drove on lead was 25 miles to 30% soc. I would be very happy to get 30 miles with the lithium. The higher voltage and greatly reduced weight should help top speed. Typically i drive 12 miles a day.

Jim i'd be happy to make a dvd if i can find the old tapes from over a year ago! No need for payment. To be honest i've resisted this as i wanted the information to be free for all and there are lots of guy doing very professional dvds now like Gav and Ben Nellson. Who wants to listen to a boring mick?? Not trying to sound like a wet rag but I like to give back to the community that helped me so much.

Anaerin , to be honest this whole project is trial and error. More error sometimes but thats how i work. Yep the pack could have been a different shape and yes the cells could be hidden away for example under tha back seat. Maybe if circumstances allow i'll do that for the next phase.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Hey Jack,

Congrats on the Li pack change. I think you have shown a really good example of upgrading to a better battery chemistry, but only to the amount you really need (or could afford) either way, it demonstrates to people that they don't necessarily have to save up $15k to go lithium. You have lots of opportunity to increase your pack size when and if you decide. Nice job.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks! At the end of the day its costing about the same as the odyssey agm pack. The chennic 14.2v 20A charger turned up today. Quite impressed as only ordered on christmas eve. Will fit to the car tomorrow and report back. Not a bad price either at $95usd. Tested it on a dmm at 14.215v


----------



## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Jim i'd be happy to make a dvd if i can find the old tapes from over a year ago! No need for payment. To be honest i've resisted this as i wanted the information to be free for all and there are lots of guy doing very professional dvds now like Gav and Ben Nellson. Who wants to listen to a boring mick?? Not trying to sound like a wet rag but I like to give back to the community that helped me so much.


Jack,

Any time you get the time to put something together on a DVD, feel free to PM me for my address. If you wont accept payment, I'd be happy to make a donation to your favorite charity in your name.

Boring. . . never, a mick. . . maybe, a wet rag. . . we need more of it.

Have a great day,
Jim



DIYguy; said:


> Congrats on the Li pack change. I think you have shown a really good example of upgrading to a better battery chemistry, but only to the amount you really need (or could afford) either way, it demonstrates to people that they don't necessarily have to save up $15k to go lithium. You have lots of opportunity to increase your pack size when and if you decide. Nice job.eople that they don't necessarily have to save up $15k to go lithium. You have lots of opportunity to increase your pack size when and if you decide.


DIYguy,

I agree. Jack's candid and homely step by step approch to his posts has probably helped calm the fears of many people who want to do a similar thing. Conversly the results he achieves help many decide if that is really what they wanted to try to do.

For me, since I'm about a week behind him in doing a similar pack for different reasons, including the space for expansion, I'm just going to let him continue to be the sacrifical goat. Are you blushing yet Jack?

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh i'm getting embarrassed alright. Thanks for the kind words.

ok so i have a few observations and questions. The 24s4p pack is now installed as previously mentioned. I programmed the charger for a 10amp cc charge to 84v and a cuttoff at 0.5amps. Charged , hit the cv point within .2v current tailed off and charger terminated. Pack setled back to a little over 82v. So i went in with the multimeter to check individual cells. Now , when i say cells i mean a block of 4 x 16ah cells in parallel.

Cell voltages varied from 3.37v to 3.42v until i hit 3 that were 4.15v. Engage panic circuits.......panic circuits engaged .AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOO MY CELLS!!!!!!! 

So managed to calm down and think the thing through. I worked on the theory that my 3 friends were either A) of lower capacity or B)started life in the pack higher up the charge curve. Decided to go for a drive and seeing as it was lunch time , i went to the local chip shop exactly a mile away. Pulled up and ordered some unhealthy food. While waiting i measured all 24 blocks. Everyone measured 3.37v plus or minus a few mv. Everyone. As i stood there pondering the mysteries of lithium cells , the food was ready. Fired up and drove the mile back to work. Munched a burger. Measured all 24 again. Guess what ? 3.37v plus or minus a few mv. Everyone.

This time i set the charger to terminate at 1.5amps plugged in and went back to work.

Spent most of the afternoon fault finding an inverter system in a coffee wagon. Got it fixed eventually after getting my arms covered with burnt engine oil (worst possible insult to an ev guy) and sucked down 2 double expressos!

Now at this stage my hands are shaking really bad and my heart is hammering when i noticed the charger had terminated. So i get the multimeter out and measure all 24 , made more difficult by shaking hands and blurred vision from the coffee. Cells varied from 3.41 to 3.45 volts with the 3 odd men out measuring 3.62 , 3.71 and 3.80v.

I'm still churning these findings in my head. My working hypothesis is that the 0.5amp termination current was far too low and allowed a trickle charge to push the 3 cells of lowest capacity up the steep end of the curve. Does that sound reasonable? I still think i should be terminating charge at a higher current and will do some more tests over the next few days and report outcome.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Jack,

A thought comes to mind, why not move those three cells into different parallel groups, some groups with the lowest overall voltage. Try to average out the packs.

Does this make sense?

I know it's a pain to pull out and apart, but . . .

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Sadly not really a runner with the current pack design. I kind of guess that it would only push the issue to the next lower capacity block in any event.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

Maybe i missed the info. 
Did you balance the cells in any way (top or bottom) before you put the pack together?
I can recall such behavior (out of balance) after overdischarging the pack or exceeding max C rate for discharge. 
Recommended is also not to charge to 100% SOC.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

No balancing done at all. Not exceed discharge or charge.


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## zwmaster (Nov 23, 2009)

I would recommend you to balance the cells. 
You could bottom balance all of them to 2.5V i think for HW with 0.3C currrent. Then put the pack together and charge it up.
All should then be in around 10mV apart and reach 3.5-3.6 in similar time period.
Monitor first charge with multimeter. 

This is what I would do now that you have allready charged them.
There is a lot of different opinioun out there so don't take my for granted.
4,2V did not kill any of our HW cells. Overdischarge did.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

you do have those nifty little monitoring tabs so why not rig up some cables to take a bit of charge out of only the 3 groups that are hitting the top. Just a big resistor or other load that you can bring them down, might take a couple of tries but it should get you to a safer part of the curve.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Off the battery topic for a bit , I fitted an iec62196 charge socket and "control" to the car today. Purchased from Dostar in china for $125.
http://www.dostar-ev.com/en/product...me=EV Charge Coupler&SmallClassName=IEC 62196

I also purchased a compatible charging cable from the same company. The controls are very simple as it uses almost the same setup as j1772. Just 2 diodes and a 1k resistor. Via work i was able to purchase a charging pole controller from Mennekes in Germany:
http://www.mennekes.de/web/?appid=content/exp.def-live/de/&serviceconfig=live-browse-fresh

I built it , a contactor and a 32A RCBO into a box. Dostar charge cable on one end and a 32A industrial plug on the other. Instant charging pole! Plug in , 2 second later contactor thumps in and power on. Pull the plug and the pilot signal breaks contact first and openes the contactor before the power pins break. Nice and simple and the car is now compatible with the 1500 charging stations that are supposed to be installed throughout the country this year. Wait and see i guess!

Camera battery died so i'll get some pics on monday.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Fitted one of these OWL energy meters to the car today:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Owl-Micro-CM1...30448567304?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item1e5f572c08

Now i can keep track of power usage when charging. Had it on the desk at work today and could see the charger taper down then shutoff. Very usefull.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Fitted one of these OWL energy meters to the car today:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Owl-Micro-CM1...30448567304?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item1e5f572c08
> 
> Now i can keep track of power usage when charging. Had it on the desk at work today and could see the charger taper down then shutoff. Very usefull.


That's an interesting piece of gear, and they also make something that should work off of 120v for us north americans.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Don't think voltage matters. Transmitter and receiver run from two little aaa batteries. website here with more info : http://www.theowl.com/

My charger maxed out at 4.1kw today. Not bad for a bunch of old plasma cutter parts


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Don't think voltage matters. Transmitter and receiver run from two little aaa batteries. website here with more info : http://www.theowl.com/
> 
> My charger maxed out at 4.1kw today. Not bad for a bunch of old plasma cutter parts


Sorry Jack, have to disagree:


*Q6: I live in the USA and my electricity is 110 Volts, can I use an Owl Micro*


No. as the voltage is set at 230 volts it is not suitable. You can however use the Owl CM119 or Efergy Elite both of which have the facility to set 110 as the voltage!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

ahh. My mistake


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I have one of those OWL gadgets. One of the national newspapers were giving them out free last year, with collected tokens, along with one of those remote controlled extension leads. 

Haven't found a use for the extension lead yet but the OWL put me off welding for a while.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Upgraded the brake vac pump today to the vw/audi. A world of difference. Cannot be heard inside the vehicle during driving. Only takes 3-4 seconds to pump up to full vacuum. The tomas used to take 10-15 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2j65O2k9gM


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

NICE!!! almost noiseless. 
That was a great part find.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice pump.

Is the box sealed or do you have air holes?

It is very quiet, what Audi is it from?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

YEP! Nice one the box gave me an idea to redo that way


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Box has a hole in back to let air out. One thing i should point out is that these pumps require a non return valve. If not fitted it just keeps cycling on and off.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Got working on my 4d systems 3.2" display today. Hope to integrate it with the charger and possibly bms.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Absolute Madness!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Guess i asked for that!

Anyway here's something more interesting on the display. Now up and running with the controller data stream. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mSvmUTencU


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Anyway here's something more interesting on the display. Now up and running with the controller data stream.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mSvmUTencU


That's nice work there. Just what I would like to have.

How much are you looking at to sell a kit????


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Anyway here's something more interesting on the display. Now up and running with the controller data stream.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mSvmUTencU


Jack,

Would this work on the standard REV 2 Paul & Sabrina controller? 

If so I second Woody!

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes should work on any p&s controller. I'm running v1.11b in the video which is the most recent. The display is available from 4dsystems in Australia :
http://www.4dsystems.com.au/prod.php?id=114
You then need a rs232 to ttl level converter to convert to 5v levels for the display. eg:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220720947220&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

A 1mb micro sd card is also required to store the program code. this can also store movies and pictures that can be played / displayed.

A little bit of board with a 5v reg (7805) , few passives etc and its all done. The code will be free. The original design was done by Greg Fordyce over on ecomodder. I hope to add simple gauges and as its a touch panel screen , menus.For now its a simple way to display controller data in the car without needing a laptop.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I reckon you would have buyers if it was a (cardboard) boxed item ready to plug in, at least with me anyway.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Made some progress with the display. Cleaned up the refresh to get rid of unwanted data , heatsink temp now in degrees c and rpm measurement implemented. Simple touch screen interface implemented.Also started stuffing the bms pcbs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g8O8hLwPbc


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Made some progress with the display. Cleaned up the refresh to get rid of unwanted data , heatsink temp now in degrees c and rpm measurement implemented. Simple touch screen interface implemented.Also started stuffing the bms pcbs.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g8O8hLwPbc


Ups... Are we supposed to see this handsome "pcb" picture?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Sorry you have me at a loss?


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Sorry you have me at a loss?


This image was included in your post


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Nice little start up display. Maybe you could have a little countdown timer on it so that you don't get the start up 'button' until the system is ready.

Or better still, a numeric keypad to enter a start up code before the controller comes on. It'll would be a good security measure.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I just thought people might like to see the board being built. Woody give me some slack here i'm just getting to know this thing. On a side note i like the keypad idea. Just like the transporter!


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I just thought people might like to see the board being built. Woody give me some slack here i'm just getting to know this thing. On a side note i like the keypad idea. Just like the transporter!


You are doing, certainly, a great job!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I just thought people might like to see the board being built. Woody give me some slack here i'm just getting to know this thing. On a side note i like the keypad idea. Just like the transporter!


You are doing far, far better then I could do. 
I usually find that after I have carefully nailed a few chips to the board and then screwed a display over the top nothing works properly.

The keypad idea might be a good thing for those needing an automatic security system for the IVA inspection (says Woody, planning in advance).


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> On a side note i like the keypad idea. Just like the transporter!


You mean this one?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

As in "The Transporter". The man with rules :


Never change the deal.
No names.
Never open the package.
Never make a promise you can't keep.
Here's a few pics of the charge connector and lead:


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Are you Stage 2 or Stage 3 charging?


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## Merzie (Jan 24, 2011)

Hey there. I 'm new here, looking to convert an E30 or 2002 in the future. (don't even have the car yet). Mechanically I've only disassembled a lawnmower and done rc stuff, but hopefully I can learn as I go and have someone pull out the engine for me.

Is there a board out there that would somehow let us link our iPhones/ipads or smartphones in order to view this data you are displaying on that little lcd? It would be so much easier in my eyes to make an nice interface on iOS, while also using the device to control music and other functions.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Merzie said:


> Hey there. I 'm new here, looking to convert an E30 or 2002 in the future. (don't even have the car yet). Mechanically I've only disassembled a lawnmower and done rc stuff, but hopefully I can learn as I go and have someone pull out the engine for me.
> 
> Is there a board out there that would somehow let us link our iPhones/ipads or smartphones in order to view this data you are displaying on that little lcd? It would be so much easier in my eyes to make an nice interface on iOS, while also using the device to control music and other functions.



Welcome to the forum!

What kind of connection did you have in mind? WLAN, Bluetooth or USB?
Do you have experience in programming or web design?


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## Merzie (Jan 24, 2011)

It would need to be USB to start, I think. I have no experience with any of the above, but I am taking programming courses now and might be able to some day.

I don't know how to interface at all with Arduino, and I don't know it's capabilities. If it could be connected to with wifi or bluetooth, great, but it's always going to be best to have a direct connection for charging.

(iOS is supposed to be pretty easy to develop on cause apple has a nice dev package)


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## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

Merzie said:


> It would need to be USB to start, I think. I have no experience with any of the above, but I am taking programming courses now and might be able to some day.
> 
> I don't know how to interface at all with Arduino, and I don't know it's capabilities. If it could be connected to with wifi or bluetooth, great, but it's always going to be best to have a direct connection for charging.
> 
> (iOS is supposed to be pretty easy to develop on cause apple has a nice dev package)


Well USB is out unless you jailbreak your i Device. Apple will only give you the dev tools for the dock connector once you have proved that you are a legal business. They want tax documents and some other stuff. I know this because I looked into it. 

You should start a new thread on this as to not droud jacks build thread.

-Adam


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

To be honest i prefer to avoid devices such as ipads and the like for instrumentation. Simple is better. Less of a learning curve and no "you can't do this and you can't do that" bs.

Here's a video on the bms system i've been building up. Designed on the UK battery vehicle society forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuWNt8EuBSM

I happen to think its a very usefull piece of instrumentation with a lot of sensible features. It's also elegantly simple in both hardware and software. I'm in the process of modifying it to better suit my needs.......


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Well said Jack!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I heard from the shipping agent last week. My batch of 100 x 16ah cells are landing at Dublin port on tuesday week. This raises a question. Can the motor take a nominal 152v pack voltage? On lead i was running at 120v nominal with no problems but always felt like i needed a few extra volts. Any thoughts?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Hall effect pedal up and running with the control board. Now just gotta think about mounting the thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vuDpcr8_I0


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a few pics of the completed bms boards.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

A chap can get RSI assembling that lot!


The hall effect pedal seems to work well. Will that big housing fit in the footwell without too much modification?


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

that is a lot of work, and every one of those wires need electricity running through them, plus the board. isn't there a simpler way to do it?
I'm not smart enough to even know what it is unless someone told me, making one would be impossible for me.
Nice work.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I gotta be honest i'm conflicted about the whole bms thing. I WANT to know what the cells are doing but to do so means a very complex system. Complex systems are inherently unreliable. The BVS system is very simple and elegent in its design but still requires a lot of wiring and connections. Time will tell.

The ideal bms would be wireless. ie one board per cell with a wireless transmitter , powered by that cell. No wiring , no spagetti.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

do we really need to monitor every cell every second?
why not monitor sectors of battery packs, and rotate batteries like we do tires, or on power tools?
what if you built a monitor that you could place on a group of batteries to check them and then move it off to check the others? after all how often do you really need to check them if they are charged daily? all a driver really need to know is the total power available at any specific moment, and a single guage will do for that measuring total output.
so maybe the real solution is to make the battery easy to put in and take out, like in a power tool, for checking, or even replacing. instead of building racks that require taking the entire thing out - we make the hardware different and eliminate the need for complex electrical systems. every wire is weight. every wire eats up electricity, every impulse requires electrical use to power the manager to give us data we don't actually need second by second.
it's like driving a gas engine - you need to know how much gas is in the tank, you don't actually need to know how much gas each cylinder is using every second of operation, unless you are racing.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I gotta be honest i'm conflicted about the whole bms thing. I WANT to know what the cells are doing but to do so means a very complex system. Complex systems are inherently unreliable. The BVS system is very simple and elegent in its design but still requires a lot of wiring and connections. Time will tell.


I know what you mean, you keep trying for KISS and you keep runing into (can't remember the acronym) that wants to make things more complex. *I DO NOT LIKE* the BMS types I have researched/read about. Then there is this whole Top Balance/Bottom Balance/Get evey erg out/Don't use it all debate going on. I still don't see a consensus. Then there is the throw power away into a resistor (as unused heat) to balance things. YUCK

For my dream battery for the car I will never be able to build, I started off with oversizing the pack, You figure your maximum normal travel and figure that plus add at least 20% to give you what you need. *It must be remembered that that 20% is NEVER TO BE USED.*

So now you have a pack that will allow you to travel 20% less then the distance it could, I can hear the screams already, cost, weight, etc. *But* *Remember*, to offset that you will most likley get many more cyles of that limited distance from this battery. In the end you may have a net gain of total distance traveled.

Now you have the choice of going with a complex BMS and programmed charger. This set up could double the cost of the pack. *NOT ON MY WATCH.*

Now my pack is similar to yours. It has 150 (soon to be 200) Headway 38120 P cells, you went with bigger 40mm S cells, Like yours, mine are arranged in buddy sets, _this mimics a lithium prismatic cell in size, weight and amp hours_ but kicks prismatics butt in output C rate. Each 4 cell stack will be equivalent to a 32 amp hour 3.4 volt battery. One difference I can get 800 amps from that stack for over a minute with a sag of no less 2.4 volts. 

So now back to KISS. instead of the high dollar complex programmed charger/BMS system, we are going with a simple limited charging system to handle cell balance and overcharge protection

We wanted to do a system built from off the shelf components. so here is what we came up with.

We put individual simple DC to DC converters as chargers on each battery and never allow them to charge above 90%. We do this by accuratly limiting the charge voltage. So we have cell overcharge and balance covered without a $3000.00 battery charger and $2000.00 BMS. Each one of the boards we are building will cost about $15.00 (we got a deal on some of the stuff) that's $750.00 for a charger/balancer system that CANNOT over charge the battery and balances the cells on each charge. 

An additional plus is that we can charge from any voltage source from 36 to 72 volts. Even better . . . do the math to see what amprage we can put through each 3.55 volt charger/DC to DC from a 48 volt source. Our converters are rated at 25 amps

The remaining areas of concern is LVC and component failure for our off the shelf component system we chose Cell Logs. For LVC we set the cell logs low voltage alarm to 2.25 volts. Any Cell (stack) that drops below that set voltage triggers a latching circuit that cuts power by XX% and turns on a warning alarm/light. The latch requires a positive action reset. The rest of any concerns can be checked through verious Cell Log functions.

So for around a $1000.00 USD we have all of the bases covered. No as transparent or KISS as we would like but covered. I bet a smart EE and programmer could put all this on one board and make a install and forget system. The only thing would be a power cut back and blink codes and for everything else.



jackbauer said:


> The ideal bms would be wireless. ie one board per cell with a wireless transmitter , powered by that cell. No wiring , no spagetti.


Funny you shoul mention that I sent a suggestion to Tess and QER about an on battery unit that would send RF type signals through the main power wiring and then be recieved by an ECM. Similar to those through the house wiring intercom systems. Tess commented on it but I never heard any more. Probably too busy with the Jr. launch.

Sorry about the enth of the rant.
Jim


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

I've never understood why every cell has to communicate back to the head board individually. Why not just run an isolated I2C bus between the cells and the head board (Using one of the many I2C isolator chips, or even just an opto arrangement)? You don't need spaghetti running from every cell to the headend then, you just need 2 wires. Then your headend board can interrogate the cells in turn, rather than having to monitor them all at once. With a 400KHz bus, and 100 cells, that gives you 1,000 readings per second (Allowing for overhead). More than enough. So an attiny on each cell, with temperature, voltage and amperage sensors hooked up to it, an I2C bus coming out, and a trigger to a MOSFET to shunt current, would give you all the information you need, along with Over-volt and Under-volt protection. Or, if you really wanted to go completely wireless, you could use an x-bee. The problem with wireless, of course, is all the RF noise that's happening under the bonnet as several hundred volts at close to a thousand amps is being switched on and off quickly.

The problem with sending data through the power line is the magnitude of power that's being switched, and the inherently "spiky" nature of the power demands, and the sagging of the cells' voltage. If it was AC power you were sending, then frequency modulation would be the simple way to send data, but as it's DC you don't have such luxuries.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I just thought people might like to see the board being built. Woody give me some slack here i'm just getting to know this thing. On a side note i like the keypad idea. Just like the transporter!


I had another thought on the keypad security idea.

How about having a keypad on the touch screen to set up a code to activate everything but once it is set up remove the display of the keypad.

The car just has a blank screen with no indication of needing to touch or do anything. Touch the invisible keypad numbers and it all comes to life!


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Anaerin said:


> I've never understood why every cell has to communicate back to the head board individually. Why not just run an isolated I2C bus between the cells and the head board (Using one of the many I2C isolator chips, or even just an opto arrangement)? You don't need spaghetti running from every cell to the headend then, you just need 2 wires. Then your headend board can interrogate the cells in turn, rather than having to monitor them all at once. With a 400KHz bus, and 100 cells, that gives you 1,000 readings per second (Allowing for overhead). More than enough. So an attiny on each cell, with temperature, voltage and amperage sensors hooked up to it, an I2C bus coming out, and a trigger to a MOSFET to shunt current, would give you all the information you need, along with Over-volt and Under-volt protection. Or, if you really wanted to go completely wireless, you could use an x-bee. The problem with wireless, of course, is all the RF noise that's happening under the bonnet as several hundred volts at close to a thousand amps is being switched on and off quickly.
> 
> The problem with sending data through the power line is the magnitude of power that's being switched, and the inherently "spiky" nature of the power demands, and the sagging of the cells' voltage. If it was AC power you were sending, then frequency modulation would be the simple way to send data, but as it's DC you don't have such luxuries.


What do you think of the MiniBMS (http://www.cleanpowerauto.com/MiniBMS.html)?


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

marcexec said:


> What do you think of the MiniBMS (http://www.cleanpowerauto.com/MiniBMS.html)?


MiniBMS is the kind of thing I'm talking about, but it would be so very easy to go further. All MiniBMS can do is issue a "Fault" or "Warning" alert. The system I'm proposing can give finely-grained details on what each individual cell is doing, can work in conjunction with a charger, so that rather than charging until one cell reached HVC, it can top-charge until all cells reach HVC (when a cell reaches HVC, it sends a signal down the communication lines to the charger (to reduce the charging voltage by 1 cell's worth), and cuts the cell out of the loop, possibly using a solid-state relay or something similar). Similarly, if there is one particularly weak cell, when it triggers LVC it can be switches out of the string to prevent over-discharging. This would give a gradual decrease in power as the pack reaches empty, along with the necessary data to warn the driver he is reaching "empty". It also means any dud cells can be found and fixed in short order, as well as giving solid protection against any and/or all potential problems. Possibly even a "high-power cut-out", so if there is a runaway short somewhere the batteries disengage themselves before the ensuing plasma event consumes them.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

There really is no need for such fine-grained control.
Top-charging each cell just wears them out faster for almost no gain. 
If a cell is bad, you need to identify it and just replace it.
unless you have thousands, in which case you identify and replace modules.
I see no problem with wires to each cell, small wires will just melt like a fuse if a serious mishap. The problem would be if you have subpacks and not want to run all the wires across town to the next pack,
in this case, have a monitor for each subpack and report that centrally.

I would look at what the Prius does, it's what I think is a good approach,
except they make it very hard to replace cells, but since they last 100k miles, not too big an issue is it?




Anaerin said:


> MiniBMS is the kind of thing I'm talking about, but it would be so very easy to go further. All MiniBMS can do is issue a "Fault" or "Warning" alert. The system I'm proposing can give finely-grained details on what each individual cell is doing, can work in conjunction with a charger, so that rather than charging until one cell reached HVC, it can top-charge until all cells reach HVC (when a cell reaches HVC, it sends a signal down the communication lines to the charger (to reduce the charging voltage by 1 cell's worth), and cuts the cell out of the loop, possibly using a solid-state relay or something similar). Similarly, if there is one particularly weak cell, when it triggers LVC it can be switches out of the string to prevent over-discharging. This would give a gradual decrease in power as the pack reaches empty, along with the necessary data to warn the driver he is reaching "empty". It also means any dud cells can be found and fixed in short order, as well as giving solid protection against any and/or all potential problems. Possibly even a "high-power cut-out", so if there is a runaway short somewhere the batteries disengage themselves before the ensuing plasma event consumes them.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok folks i don't mean to be offensive but can we please take the bms discussion elsewhere? I really don't want my thread to become another of these endless talking shops. My final thoughts on the matter are that everyone should do as he/she thinks is best and the only way to discover things is by experiment. I will report back on progress or lack thereof.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Ok folks i don't mean to be offensive but can we please take the bms discussion elsewhere? I really don't want my thread to become another of these endless talking shops. My final thoughts on the matter are that everyone should do as he/she thinks is best and the only way to discover things is by experiment. I will report back on progress or lack thereof.


Darn there is no thumbs up iconic do-hicky !!!


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## Anaerin (Feb 4, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Ok folks i don't mean to be offensive but can we please take the bms discussion elsewhere? I really don't want my thread to become another of these endless talking shops. My final thoughts on the matter are that everyone should do as he/she thinks is best and the only way to discover things is by experiment. I will report back on progress or lack thereof.


Agreed. My apologies. There's a more appropriate thread in the "Batteries" forum, and I've moved my suggestion there. Sorry for the noise.


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## nimblemotors (Oct 1, 2010)

Can you change the name of this thread to "Jack Bauer's Thread and Experiements", instead of "Bushed Motor Works", 
so we can be sure to be careful posting anything to it



jackbauer said:


> Ok folks i don't mean to be offensive but can we please take the bms discussion elsewhere? I really don't want my thread to become another of these endless talking shops. My final thoughts on the matter are that everyone should do as he/she thinks is best and the only way to discover things is by experiment. I will report back on progress or lack thereof.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Please don't take offense as none was meant and no apologies necessary. I just want to keep this thread on topic and bms is the biggest hot potato in this game

Anyway latest news from the shipping agent is that the cells are now due in on the 19th............fingers crossed. By the way i can highly recommend Forwardmetals in the uk for a fast efficent service for aluminium:
http://www.forwardmetals.co.uk/


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi Damien,

one question, that I was not really able to solve from looking (and listening) to your video's is what gears you usually use while driving.

Do you need to start in 1st gear, or is a higher gear also feasible for driving away. And what other gearshifts do you usually need for higher speeds.

The background of my question is that I want to go direct drive, but I am unsure whether my 260 Nm torque is sufficient to do this, looking at the original 150 Nm of the ICE. I want to avoid getting stuck against a small ridge or gutter, on the other hand I really like the simplicity and clutter-free appearance of direct drive.

Maybe you also know the max torque of you motor, that would be ideal for my considerations.

Regards, and thanks in advance,


Huub


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I typically take off in 2nd or 3rd and would use 3rd for town driving upto about 30-35mph. 1st is useless. For motorway driving i would go up to 4th then 5th to hit 60mph. My biggest problem on this car is the diff. Its very low ratio at 3.74:1. This means i'm at 3000rpm in 5th at 60mph. I dont like reving the motor over 3k so this limits top end. Sadly the compact BMW uses a different diff carrier to the normal e36 range as i had looked at swapping in a 2.28 diff from an m series.

I don't have any data on the motor and would strongly recommend against direct drive. I can take off in 4th (1:1) but it pulls a lot of amps and is slow. Bear in mind this data is based on a 120v lead acid pack weighing 365kg. I'll do a few more tests with the 152v 95kg lithium when the boat eventually arrives


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi Damien,

for your information, the diff in the E36 compact (and the Z3) is the same as the E30 diff. For that car you will find a larger variety of diffs (going down to ca. 2.72 AFAIK). Indeed the diff of the E36 sedan does not fit in the compact.

Another option would be the automatic version of the E36 compact, which has the 4.45 diff, compared to the 3.45 diff for the manual gear (at least on the EU continent, I am a bit amazed about your 3.74 ratio, never seen that in a E36 compact till now).

My motor (industrial AC) will have max rpm of 5000, and max torque of 260. I will try to do a simulation with 3rd, 4rd and 5th gear, to see where I end up with.

You are clutchless, isn't it. If yes, I have a feeling that 3rd gear with your motor is not that different from my motor in direct drive (but difficult to judge without the exact data of your motor, just based on the size of your motor compared to mine).

Regards,


Huub

edit: here a link where to find a E30 to E36 swap: http://www.emotors.ca/articles/7.aspx


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thats some excellent info thanks a lot. Sorry i made an error with the ratio its 3.45. I have found a 3.23 and am in the process of getting it purchased. Not a huge difference but if i could squeezw 70mph at 3000rpm i'd be happy.

The car refused to "start" this morning. Controller locked out so i hooked up the laptop. Throttle fault. The throttle graph was dancing all over the screen. Thankfully the controller realised this or i would have been doing an impromptu wheel spin video. The tps had finally let go. Fortunatly i had a "donor vehicle" on hand to supply a replacement. Once i swapped out the sensor from the 328 all was well. Indeed the throttle is a lot smoother and i can do my 1 amp driving again.

Also finally got my milling machine out of storage and up and running.

Anyone wanna buy a 2.8l 6 cylinder petrol engine? low miles and one carefull lady owner ???????


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Damien,

please be aware that sometimes changing the diff also means changing the axle stubs and some other parts. See the link I included with the previous post.

To look up part numbers, and some technical info (e.g. diff ratios), I mostly use:
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/

Other good site with BMW E36 info, partly useful to EV too:
http://www.bimmerdiy.com/dir/e36

Regards, and good luck!


Huub

PS. that is a great looking cabrio you've got there


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Also finally got my milling machine out of storage and up and running.


Jack, two questions:

Did you move to a new shop? Never really looked through your videos because my internet connection was too slow. Always thought you were in a small (like 1 1/2 car) garage under your house. (My impressions) This looks like an industrial 2000 sq ft shop. Nice . . . makes my old chicken shed look nasty (It was nasty, even before the roof collapsed under the snow load this winter)

Second question, when you assembled your Headways did you have any of the batteries have the negitive terminal end start turning in the case before you could get them tight? I know you are using the 40 mm batteries and we are using the 30 mm. Just curious. So far it doesn't seem to affect the output when we loaded it on the test rig. It just makes assembly, disassembly difficult when using the OEM snap together blocks. Plus there is always a bit of worry at the back of your thoughts

That convertible is going to make a first class EV. Going with Headways again, or going to try pouch batteries like CroDriver and the Zombie seem to. Your going to need a lot of extra power to run that top up and down when the weather changes.

Sorry had to sneak in that third question.

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim,
The car and mill are on the top floor of the building owned by my boss at work. Basically it was a storage area full of old junk so he kindly donated it to the cause and i spent 2 weekends clearing it out. I converted the 316 in an old basement that had a cordened off area that i rented for a little over a year. It wasn't actually that bad though your about right in terms of the space. Biggest problem i had there was a toilet soil pipe ran along the wall at the rear and it was split badly. I replaced it as soon as i moved in for obvious reasons (and hence my youtube name!!) 

I did have one cell twist its neg electrode during assesembly. I removed it and it read 0v. I was carefull with the rest and thankfully had no further problems.

The 328 will be fun. Familiar yet different and the automatic will be an interesting challenge. The car actually belongs to a friend , i'm just the "consultant" on the project! Not sure on the battery front yet but the motor will be a kostov 11" 250v. I have a little surprise for it from my pals at fuji. Its big , black and rated at 1200v and 3300amps


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Damien,

a short remark, looking at the ratio 3,23/3,45 I do not think you will get 70 mph with 3000 rpm.

If you have 60 mph now with 3000 rpm, you will end up with Vmax of 64 mph after the conversion. furthermore the ratio is longer, so you will loose a bit (not much) due to the lower forward force at the tires.

So you will end up with a 2-3 mph speed gain, not sure this is what you are looking for considering the hassle and costs of the conversion.

Regards,


Huub


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Huub , your such a ray of sunshine  I got a few minutes today to build up the "tophat" cell holder. This will hold 32 cells and fit on top of the main pack. Tophat and main cell pack will be held in place by two pieces of 50x50x5mm aluminium angle.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Jim,
> Biggest problem i had there was a toilet soil pipe ran along the wall at the rear and it was split badly. I replaced it as soon as i moved in for obvious reasons (and hence my youtube name!!)
> 
> Damian (is the spelling right),
> ...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Its spelt Damien. With an 'e' 

Yeh its gonna be another custom driver board and a watercooled heatsink. Cells should be here early next week i'm told.


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Its spelt Damien. With an 'e'
> 
> Yeh its gonna be another custom driver board and a watercooled heatsink. Cells should be here early next week i'm told.


Damien,

You bet we'll be watching that one real close. Darin my partner in this tractor with the 13 inch GE has similar ideas.

Also want to see how the car performs with the whole battery installed. You might get your speed with the increase in voltage by pushing the motor another 1 or 200 rpm and not need the taller gearing.

Jim


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Hi Damien,

just did another thinking on your diff, and maybe I made a mistake.

I assumed the current 60 mph limit is due to the fact that you are out of power at that speed. However, reading back, you most likely stop at that speed due to the 3000 rpm limit of the motor?

If that is the case, and you have sufficient extra power/torque/current at 60 to reach 70 mph, then a longer diff might be working.

You would need ( (70^2/60^2) -1 = ca. 36%) more power to reach 70 mph from 60 mph, assuming air resistance is the main contributor to your power need (air resistance is going with the square of the speed). I assume you can look this up in the current that the controller is providing.

If you have indeed this 36% reserve, then you would need a diff of 60/70 * 3.45 = ca. 2.96 ratio to achieve a speed of 70 mph with 3000 rpm. There is a 2.93 ratio diff for the 6-cylinder E30, so that would fit nicely.

Please be aware that acceleration will suffer with the longer diff., but as you have a geared system, this might not be too much of a difference.

Hope this helps a bit, regards,


Huub


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> You would need ( (70^2/60^2) -1 = ca. 36%) more power to reach 70 mph from 60 mph, assuming air resistance is the main contributor to your power need (air resistance is going with the square of the speed). Huub


The work done increases with the square of speed, like you say, but the power required actually increases with the cube of speed, since at higher speed that work is also being done in less time.

The additional energy required is (70^3/60^3) -1 = 59%.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

MalcolmB said:


> The work done increases with the square of speed, like you say, but the power required actually increases with the cube of speed, since at higher speed that work is also being done in less time.
> 
> The additional energy required is (70^3/60^3) -1 = 59%.


Malcolm,

you are completely right, I mixed work/current/torque with power, my bad.

So indeed the current reserve should be ca. 36%, the power reserve ca. 59%.

Damien, if you have a working point of your car, meaning speed, rpm (gear), voltage and current, or even more working points, and the max voltage and current you have observed, I can do a simulation to find the effect of a different diff.

Regards,


Huub


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Let me get this straight. 59% more energy is required to cruise at 70mph than 60mph?. Very interesting.

typically i would have been pulling about 150 - 170amps in 5th at 60mph , 3000rpm with a 120v lead pack. HOPEFULLY the cells will arrive this week and i can test with lithium.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Let me get this straight. 59% more energy is required to cruise at 70mph than 60mph?. Very interesting.
> 
> typically i would have been pulling about 150 - 170amps in 5th at 60mph , 3000rpm with a 120v lead pack. HOPEFULLY the cells will arrive this week and i can test with lithium.


Damien,

not completely:
* you need 59% more POWER to go 70 mph instead of 60 mph
* you will need 36% more ENERGY or WORK to drive a certain distance with 70 mph compared to driving the same distance with 60 mph

The first part (power) determines you motor selection and max current design (max. C number) of the battery.

The second part (energy) determines the size (in Ah or kWh) of your battery.

Regards,


Huub


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Cells arrived today 100 pieces of 40160s 16ah. All read 3.35v plus or minus a few mv. One issue is the guy who drilled the neg end terminals of this batch must have been drunk. A few are practically unusable due to the holes being at an almost 45 degree angle. Thankfully it looks like i will get 96 good cells from the batch. Just scraped by!

I got the tophat pack built up today. Big day tomorrow. 152v!!!! If i end up doing a Thelma and Louise then its been an honor knowing you guys


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Looking good, can't wait to see them all out of the boxes and into the frames.

Are the crocked ones salvageable or will you return them?


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Wow!! That looks like a great box of Blue Fun!!!

Hope you can get credit for the crooked drilled ones....


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Sorry about the poor pictures. My hands were shaking after screwing in 96 headway cells. Started at 8am yesterday and did a quick test drive on 128v (ie no top hat pack) at 5:30pm. The car is COMPLETLY different. I really can't describe in words the improvement. No complaints from the motor so i'll up it to the full 152v during the week and shoot some video.


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Damien,

whow, that is truely a "power pack"! Jealous looking at all that blue shining boxes.

No concerns of something shorting the pack during manouvring?

Regarding the wrong threads in the batteries, I was surprised, as I was assuming 100% Quality Check at the battery manufacturing (and something like 45 deg off can't be missed). Also looking at the experiences of JimDear (the loose endcaps), we should become careful in the ordering process and upfront clarify/demand free replacement of faulty batteries.

Regards,


Huub


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The pack is not finished by any stretch of the imagination. Lots of extra insulation and tiedown components to be fitted. Regards the few problem cells i'm not worried. I take the view that the Chinese will actually SUPPLY the cells for money. As part of my day job , i frequently meet sales and technical reps from major battery manufacturers. When the subject of lithium is raised , all assure me they are "into" this new technology in a big way and support this fact with nice graphics and sales projections etc. I then pop a 100ah thundersky cell on the desk and ask when can i have some samples. Not one yet can do so.

I decided to wire the pack for monitoring as can probably be seen from the photos. All the tails are fused at the cell connection with a 2amp 150vdc fast acting fuse.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Cells arrived today 100 pieces of 40160s 16ah. All read 3.35v plus or minus a few mv. One issue is the guy who drilled the neg end terminals of this batch must have been drunk. A few are practically unusable due to the holes being at an almost 45 degree angle. Thankfully it looks like i will get 96 good cells from the batch. Just scraped by!


It's a sad state of affairs when we are happy to have defective products delivered. It seems that Headway's QC consists of shipping everything that comes off the line and let the customer deal with it. Since it's probably not worth the shipping to send the defects back Headway comes out ahead. Did you mention the defects to Headway? Maybe some machine got bumped into and it's still drilling crooked holes


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

JRP i haven't been near a computer until today i've been too busy building the pack. I know its not a good scenario but i can live with it. I will drop them an email but don't really expect anything. I can use the 4 odd ones to make a little 12v pack by using wire links. No great loss.


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

JRP3 said:


> It's a sad state of affairs when we are happy to have defective products delivered. It seems that Headway's QC consists of shipping everything that comes off the line and let the customer deal with it. Since it's probably not worth the shipping to send the defects back Headway comes out ahead. Did you mention the defects to Headway? Maybe some machine got bumped into and it's still drilling crooked holes


we need to make our own batteries instead of buying them from chicoms.
they have never had quality control. i have used a lot of automotive parts that were made by them and the qc stinks. they look like good parts but their metallurgy sucks as does any qc on the actual part.
you have to remember that they are a communist country, not a democracy, therefore when the local party boss says you are not up to quota, everything off the line is sent out. there it is not that you don't get a bonus, it is you get a bullet in the brain and your family gets a bill for the cost.
knowing how the penalty works, if you were working on the line and the head of the factory said the party boss wants everything to go would you tell them no, that some parts don't work properly?
the western world needs to get on the ball, and don't worry that chicom slave labor camps can initially make it cheaper, we can make it better; provided we don't let the unions get in the way.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

C'mon, let's keep the politics elsewhere.
If you want, you can be productive and do something about it. Look what those guys from Croatia over at Endless Sphere are doing with the Colossus brushless motor are doing.
keep the thread to the BMW, please?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Plus the fact that the Chinese cells from CALB have had excellent QC.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Drove the car today at 152v. It was a religious experience. ie lots of "Jesus Christ this thing is fast!" and "Holy s**ts" mixed in.. I was a bag of nerves as i honestly thought i'd loose the motor , controller or both. Neither complained a bit. In fact the battery amps seemed much lower for much greater power. Only slight problem is the voltage sensor in the charger. The resistor i was using fine at 76v and 120v was just out of range at 152v so will swap it out tomorrow. Charger still worked fine but i just had to terminate manually at 165v (3.45 per cell).

I have to say there is just no comparison whatsoever to when i was running lead acid. None. Hill climbs are no problem. A hill near work that i would struggle to climb at 40mph with a 120v agm pack , today i had to come off the throttle when i hit 60! Hard to believe its a used forklift motor ...........


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Yahoo!!

Father Damien leading the herds .

Amen,


Huub


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## MalcolmB (Jun 10, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Drove the car today at 152v. It was a religious experience


That's good to hear, really encouraging. Well done! I guess it's about time for another video update soon...


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Great NEWS Jack !! If I have to take all day (on dialup) to download - I want to see the video!!!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Great progress, I'm waiting for the video too.

Good to know it was a worth while change.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Sorry about the poor pictures. My hands were shaking after screwing in 96 headway cells. Started at 8am yesterday and did a quick test drive on 128v (ie no top hat pack) at 5:30pm. The car is COMPLETLY different. I really can't describe in words the improvement. No complaints from the motor so i'll up it to the full 152v during the week and shoot some video.


Woow, looks somehow familiar 

Just kiddin', nice pack Jack. Just keep an eye on the voltages as some cells are failing sometimes


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Huub3 said:


> Yahoo!!
> 
> Father Damien leading the herds .
> 
> ...



Being in Ireland we all should rather hope that he does not end up with sheep as a hood ornament .

@Jackbauer: Damien, do you have any figures? sagging, max power, heat?
What was that motor rated for anyway?
Well done - final stage so far? Maybe it's the CBR's turn now...


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Cro,

regarding the failing of the Headway cells. Do these fail open or short circuit.

Latter case would be really bad, as it would take out also the parallel "buddies" of the failing cell (and cause a lot of heat).

Regards,


Huub


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm guessing cro means they are bad out of the box. I would agree. Out of the 200 i purchased , 3 read 0v or thereabouts. little over 1% failure rate i can live with!

I will do some video later in the week. Work has me very busy these days. A local performance shop has a dyno and i intend to do a run there as soon as time allows as it will let me see everything under controlled conditions.

The motor is rated for 11kw for one hour. The bike has been on the back burner a bit due to the cost and time involved with the lithium pack for the bmw. Hopefully it'll be a summer project .......


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Actually I took it to mean failing during use, hence keeping an eye on the voltages. I doubt he expects you to wire a cell into a pack without checking it first.


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I'm guessing cro means they are bad out of the box. I would agree. Out of the 200 i purchased , 3 read 0v or thereabouts. little over 1% failure rate i can live with!
> 
> I will do some video later in the week. Work has me very busy these days. A local performance shop has a dyno and i intend to do a run there as soon as time allows as it will let me see everything under controlled conditions.
> 
> The motor is rated for 11kw for one hour. The bike has been on the back burner a bit due to the cost and time involved with the lithium pack for the bmw. Hopefully it'll be a summer project .......


Did you do any load tests on the cells? Or just a voltage measurement?
I'm about to buy ~800 cells (I need 768), and I would like to know if they work or not before assembling the packs. 

Great to hear that the car is more powerful and draws less current!!
What kind of draw do you have at cuising speed? during acceleration?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Congratulations with your first EV drive!

When is the video of the EV Beamer being recorded ?


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

JRP3 said:


> Actually I took it to mean failing during use, hence keeping an eye on the voltages. I doubt he expects you to wire a cell into a pack without checking it first.


JRP,

indeed, I also read it this way.

@Cro: could you please explain the case of the failing batteries, and the failure mode.

I am also seriously considering buying the Headways (ca. 300 pcs), but I am getting a bit concerned about the quality issues, at 0 hrs, and maybe (depending on your experience) also in operation.

Regards,


Huub


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Huub3 said:


> @Cro: could you please explain the case of the failing batteries, and the failure mode.


I also would like to see CroDriver give us a rundown on how the headway pack he replaced held up and if he experianced cell failures, how they occured.



Huub3 said:


> JRP,
> I am also seriously considering buying the Headways (ca. 300 pcs), but I am getting a bit concerned about the quality issues, at 0 hrs, and maybe (depending on your experience) also in operation.


Huub and RWaudio, you are both on the edge of a very large purchase. I can't stress enough my thoughts that you should look into a well recognized and established reseller. Be sure that you and the reseller are in complete agreement on delivery and warrenty issues.

*In discussion of Headway quality issues:*

I bought 160 Headway 38120P cells and had only one 0 volt DOA. Now these batteries came directly from Headway, still in their packaging. It appears that they must be taking them directly from the assemply line with minimal, if any, QC and packing them up.

That DOA was replaced by Manzanita per their 1 week no DOA warrenty. I assume they will take this up with Headway. That's one advantage to dealing with a local reseller.

We also noticed off center and missaligned negitive end tapped holes.

We also had a problem with the negitive end turning in the case when tightening two cells together. 

Another quality issue is I noticed a number of cells that he positive end cap was made from metal that was rust pitted and had been plated over.

R.E. the pitted metal condition, I can only hope that the metal was oproperly cleaned pefore plating.

The off center tapped holes were within an acceptible tolerance to assemble our pack. However this was irritating considering the cost of the products. If we had batteries as bad as those Jack Bauer found, we could have done as he has or placed them in the outer end of a serial stick of the pack where flexible connections were possible.

The negitive end problem has been tentatively traced to a bad epoxy mix or application. It appears that the negitive end is fixed into place by the bond of the epoxy to the case and a nut on a threadded shaft into the battery. We had two batteries that had the epoxy shatter when the negitive end turned so were able to determine this as a likely cause, We can't tell if the lack of a bond is poor metal prep or poor quality epoxy.

We sent two of the batteries (1 with broken epoxy and 1 that just turned) back to Manzanita for evaluation. Hopefully they will communicate with Headway about these quality issues.

They have been very busy at Mananita so we told them to do therir evaluation as/when they can. Right now we have sufficient batteries to complete the pack construction.

Meanwhile we thought we would try a couple of repair ideas ourselves. Fot hr batteries that had the negitive end just turn we applied a good dose of super glue to the joint between the case and the epoxy. For the battery with the broken epoxy seal. We cleaned the surfaces well an then we mixed up a batch of quality epoxy and filled the gap. After a 24 hour cureing both batteries were test for mechanical strength. They seem to be able to hold quite a bit of force. At leat 150% of what we were torqueing the batteries to.

Our major concern now is capacity and life. We will load test the batteries with our equippment this week end and see if they will handle 200 amp loads. Life, well we just don't have the equippment or the money to do destructive testin.


The first lesson I've learned is that the quality control of Headway could stand improvement.

The second lesson is that although you pay more when dealing with a domestic reseller you can get some reassurance.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The other big advantage of a local reseller is that all that import nonsense is dealt with. You guys would not BELIEVE the bs and expense i had to go through to get my cells the last 30 miles from Dublin port! I joked to a friend that it took 2 months to come 3000 miles from china and 2 weeks to get the last 30! 

The company i work for are in the renewable energy sector and we looked at importing headway and other lithium cells for sale to the ev conversion market. The difficulty is that no one seems to see the extra costs involved in having a cell "on the shelf" and just assumes your a rip-off. We gave up after so many "WHAT? I can get them for x from China" type situations.

I see both thundersky and calb now have warehouses in the states. That can only help the situation a lot. Anyway , rant over


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> The other big advantage of a local reseller is that all that import nonsense is dealt with. You guys would not BELIEVE the bs and expense i had to go through to get my cells the last 30 miles from Dublin port! I joked to a friend that it took 2 months to come 3000 miles from china and 2 weeks to get the last 30!
> 
> The company i work for are in the renewable energy sector and we looked at importing headway and other lithium cells for sale to the ev conversion market. The difficulty is that no one seems to see the extra costs involved in having a cell "on the shelf" and just assumes your a rip-off. We gave up after so many "WHAT? I can get them for x from China" type situations.
> 
> I see both thundersky and calb now have warehouses in the states. That can only help the situation a lot. Anyway , rant over


Damien,

Thanks for bringing this point up. 

I was a bit reluctant to mention this advantage, since I was one of the fools that was going on about it.

It's kind of a shame that buying lithium is kind of a one time experiece for most people. After going through all the B.S. I hear people talking about when purchesing direct, they won't be buying again for a looooong time. They never get the chance to see what both sides of the coin is like. Also like me I expect they don't like to expose themselves to ridicule for making bad decisions.

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Time for a quick update. Here's a little video on the traction pack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0wkAsbxvPc

Have some new software in the controller that reads motor rpm and limits same. Very usefull feature as with the hot battery my motor just keeps on revving. It has a slight bug that i'm tracking down. Seems to use the serial lead as an aerial to pickup noise!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwPaF2jC2nY


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Time for a quick update. Here's a little video on the traction pack:


Damien,

It is amazing at how your pack and ours parallel even though there is a large ocean between us. I guess form follows function. Later on when the pack is closer to finished, I'll shoot some photos. Yours is a lot more elegant then ours but we had to cram what will be 200 38120P cells in a 50S/4P layout, along with 50 charger monitor boards, into a 16x30x7 inch space.



jackbauer said:


> Have some new software in the controller that reads motor rpm and limits same. Very usefull feature as with the hot battery my motor just keeps on reving. It has a slight bug that i'm tracking down. Seems to use the serial lead as an aerial to pickup noise!


Damien,

This new RPM limiter software you have installed on your controller interests me. I know that the control section of your controler is based on the Paul and Sabrina. I will be using a kit built, version 2, P&S on my pulling tractor and was wondering if this is sometihing that could be incorperated into mine. I have a two pulse sender on my motor. This would allow me to get rid of a lot of circuitry and a tach.

Jim


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

_Johnson Controls_ Inc. in Milwaukee makes all kinds of Lithium batteries - but YOU (or I) can't buy them.... hmmmm 

They make all the Lead-acid batteries for Wally Worlds MAX 29 series...
And this : 
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2011/01/10/johnson-controls-unveils-test-electric.html


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Nice work on the pack!

I guess your job's experience shines through - especially on the terminal block! Ho did you make the actual connectors with the included fuse?

This is something everybody should look into - safety is important!
I fear the day the first news appear of someone dying in/because of an EV...

Damien shows how it's done properly.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Sorry guys, I wasn't following the thread. 

We had about 3 cell failures in my battery pack. I can't say for sure if failing cells or the lack of a good BMS where the reason for failing but it happened. 

It always happend the same way. When I tried to accelerate the pack voltage dropped suddenly and the car didn't move. When it happened the first time I was at the starting line on a racetrack and I thought it was a controller failure. I keept trying untill I heared a small explosion and started to smell the typical smell of a failed LiFePO cell. All paralleled cells where at 0V after that event. No wonder that the cell popped since all the voltage drop happened at this cell. It probably heated up to a very high temperature.

No one knows for how long this paralleled row was at 0V before the cell popped.

It happened two times after that again but I stopped driving as soon as the voltage started to drop.

The same thing would have happened with the new A123 pack if we didn't have our new BMS. After just 50% DOD this starts to happen:










I wouldn't use a battery pack without a good BMS never again. But unfortunately I haven't seen any BMS that meets my expectations. Except our own, of course


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

CroDriver said:


> I wouldn't use a battery pack without a good BMS never again. But unfortunately I haven't seen any BMS that meets my expectations. Except our own, of course


Nice display! I like the idea you can glance at it and see a problem!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Are the cell capacities that poorly matched?


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

Cro, 

Thanks for the response. That really nice display actually is encouraging. Could you tell me how long the pack had to be at rest before this kind of situation would become appearant?

We are using Celllog8s to constantally read each of our 50S/3P parallel stacks. I was very woried that a bad cell in the individual stack would be hidden. This display shows they will stand out. Once we see something like this we will know where to go. Since we will have the Cellog8s set to give an alarm when it sees a big difference in voltage between the 8 cell packs it is monitoring and also an alarm and a controller cutoff or cutback if a cell pack falls below a set voltage, we should avoid cell blowups.

Was there any other reason (other then more power) that you switched from the Headways? How are you monitoring the individual packs with the A123 pouches?

Thanks for all of the things you try and prove good or bad and for all of your successes, they all point to a positive future for EVs.

Jim


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

JRP3 said:


> Are the cell capacities that poorly matched?


JRP3,

In light of some of the other quality issues I've seen and read about, it possibly could be.

We didn't spend the time to check the capacity when we checked our 150 cells, we just load tested and checked cell volage. Now I'm wishing we had.

I would be interseted to see the results of capacity testing of a batch of cells. I think that RWAudio and Yabert are both contimplating buying or have bought cells that arn't assembled into a battery yet. Hopefully someone will run a large enough number of cells through a comprehensive test series to get a valid se of data.

I don't want to pull our battery down to do that tesing. We really don't have the time or resources.

Jim


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## Huub3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Jim, all,

for my understanding, and to learn, how does this capacity measurement work?

Is this done with some specialized gear, or can this be done with some sort of load and a DMM at home?

Maybe if we can agree on a measurement set-up and protocol, we can compare values of different batteries and production dates.

Regards,


Huub



Jimdear2 said:


> JRP3,
> 
> In light of some of the other quality issues I've seen and read about, it possibly could be.
> 
> ...


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## rwaudio (May 22, 2008)

Jimdear2 said:


> JRP3,
> 
> In light of some of the other quality issues I've seen and read about, it possibly could be.
> 
> ...


Based on what I've heard from various people about headway cell failures, I'm contemplating setting up some sort of load test to determine impedance and capacity and log the voltage curve but even at 10C spending 5-7mins per cell (800cells) would be a long process. Initially I had planned to give them a pass/fail load test just to make sure they don't have an abnormally high impedance or some other fault.

Not to mention the amount of heat that would need to be delt with using a resistive load...


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Have some new software in the controller that reads motor rpm and limits same. Very usefull feature as with the hot battery my motor just keeps on revving. It has a slight bug that i'm tracking down. Seems to use the serial lead as an aerial to pickup noise!


Damien,

How is the rpm limiting software coming. It would be a wonderful addition to the Open Revolt controller I'll be using on the tractor. I have a revision 2 board. Is that still compatible to what you are using?

Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim , Yes the software should work with that board. Its getting better. I will be fitting a little low pass filter to the line in a day or so.

I also have a headway load tester system in the works. Its called an electric bmw on a dynamometer Coming soon ..........


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> I also have a headway load tester system in the works. Its called an electric bmw on a dynamometer Coming soon ..........


Bravo! That's the best load tester you can get


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

My pal Jim and i took the bmw out for a motorway run today to gauge performance. I manned the laptop and camera. Just prior to the run i fitted a .1uf 50v ceramic cap across the zener in the rpm circuit. Worked a charm. No more false readings or triggering of the software limiter. So i'm pleased to report the rpm limiter software in the controller is now working perfectly , much to the annoyance of Jim who was busilly overtaking every car in sight. The phrase "lets go easy on the new traction pack" didn't register

Some interesting results. In 5th gear , 3000rpm yeilds 65mph and less than 100amps on the flat. On a slight incline this increases to approx 130amps. 3300rpm yeilds a little over 70mph. I really don't want to puch the motor any higher. The nameplate says 1180 if i remember. On the way back we stopped off at a fast food shop for lunch and i checked the cells and motor. Both cold to the touch. The 70mm sq traction cables were warm however. I was very surprised at the low cruising amps for such high speed and a less than optimal drag profile. Another thing that amazes me is the performance of the motor. Its from a forklift for crying out loud!! A 72v forklift and i'm running 152v. As you can hopefully see in the video it pulls all the way to 3k rpm and beyond if i let it. Running a 100r 100w resistor on the shunt field. I could probably drop this a bit and increase shunt current and gauge results.

Sorry for the poor sound on the video, My new camera is crap. Then again i'm glad i spent more on the headways than the camera!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ11jOIq5m8


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Looking good. I envy you moderately.*

Regarding the cable I found http://www.smak.co.uk/Cables-and-Wires/1684-70mm2-Welding-Cable-485-amp-Black-50m/flypage.tpl.html and http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/cable_conductor.html.
I figure around 300A should be OK, but it might need a little airflow.

The best thing is the figures you provide:

156V * 100A = 15.60kW
156V * 130A = 20.28kW
(at a steady speed)

It shows how efficient everything is and that you don't need that big a motor. Very cool. 

*just not into BMW, that's all


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## Jimdear2 (Oct 12, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Just prior to the run i fitted a .1uf 50v ceramic cap across the zener in the rpm circuit. Worked a charm. No more false readings or triggering of the software limiter. So i'm pleased to report the rpm limiter software in the controller is now working perfectly , much to the annoyance of Jim who was busilly overtaking every car in sight.


Damien,

At your convenience, could you possibly help out a non electronic guy with a list of components, a schematic, programming code and the name of whatever equipment I will need to add this feature to my revision 2C controller board. I will have help from some knowledgeable folks, but I don't want to bother them unless I need to.

I assume it will work with a 2 pulse per rev signal from a prox sensor, or will that need to change?

Thanks,
Jim


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Jim,
Yep i'll do a little sketch. Yeh its 2 pulses per rev. I used a simple industrial prox sensor and two little steel "butons" epoxyed to the com end bearing inner race. 

Components:
2.2k 0.25w resistor x 1
4v7 500mw zener diode x 1
0.1uf 50v ceramic cap x 1


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Circuit attached. Any questions just ask. Tach input on the controller is portb pin 5 on the atmega168. Its picked up on the icsp connector for convenience.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Stopped by the weigh bridge on the way to work this morning. 1260kg! Down from 1550kg with lead. Enough said


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Construction of the liquid cooled heatsink for my new controller is going very well. Special thanks to magudaman for the design and construction. Thinking of using the radiator from my honda cbr motorcycle profect as the coolant rad. It has a fill cap , hoses and small 12v fan already attached. I have a vw 12v coolant pump originally intended for the cabin heater as a pump. Any thoughts?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Looks good but why is there a break in the gasket on the left in the last pic, and what are all the extra holes in the first pic?


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Very impressive craftsmanship. 

For those who do not have access to mechanical crafting / resources , Thermalloy sells chillplates 2 to 6 pass various sizes.


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## broadband155 (Mar 23, 2011)

Hi All. First time posting here but have read this project through. Great reading and I am so encouraged. I have been thinking about a conversion for a long time.

Just wondering if it is worth using the heat from the controller to heat the cabin? I know you wouldn't want the heat in warm weather but could you use the existing controls, perhaps with the CBR rad as well?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thats not the correct gasket. Wrong one was supplied by the company so the new one will be the correct fit. Its not the amount of heat that the transistors make thats the problem its getting it away from them. Typically only a few hundered watts max as opposed to the tens of kilowatts from an ice car. Not near enough for a cabin heater.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Like it Jack!! Keep the pictures coming... ..


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just finished building the lcd display addon for the controller. Very nice system. Displays temps , motor and bat amps , pack voltage , aux bat voltage , miles to empty etc and has a built in pwm fuel gauge driver.

Although designed for the open source controller , it would work with any system upto a maximum voltage of 200v with little modification.

Did a little video walkthrough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zg7CiqjsOo


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I like the water cooled heatsink.

You are guestimating at a few hundred watts of heat to remove with yours, through the CBR rad and fan.

I was also thinking of a water heatsink for my Curtis 1209B but I was thinking of maybe a screen washer bottle with twin pumps.
One pump will pump for screen washing and the other will pump fluid through the heatsink controlled by a thermostat when thermosyphon isn't enough.

Do you think it would work? I am working on the basis of the heat being intermittant, when pulling high current, and for short periods and so a body of screen wash, say 2-3 litres, should absorb it. I will just need to keep it topped up.

I am tempted to get work to machine the heatsink from two bits of 15mm aluminium plate that I will then stick together, similar to yours.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Should work. Water has a high specific heat capacity. So it takes a lot to heat it up but then a lot to cool it off. That said old stationary engines used evaporative cooling very well.

I got the lcd module installed and running. Also driving the fuel gauge but obviously needs to be calibrated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO04UTbUPLM


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Should work. Water has a high specific heat capacity. So it takes a lot to heat it up but then a lot to cool it off. That said old stationary engines used evaporative cooling very well.
> 
> I got the lcd module installed and running. Also driving the fuel gauge but obviously needs to be calibrated.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO04UTbUPLM


Now we should teach the Japanese about WATER cooling.... (Reactors - we have detected radioactive Iodine in the states already...)

Like the LCD and driver. My four line LCD does not read as well as the font on the one you are using! Great job... I downloaded (on dial-up) it just to watch!! ......


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Should work. Water has a high specific heat capacity. So it takes a lot to heat it up but then a lot to cool it off. That said old stationary engines used evaporative cooling very well.
> 
> I got the lcd module installed and running. Also driving the fuel gauge but obviously needs to be calibrated.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO04UTbUPLM


That'll make my cooling very simple then. If I set up a water tank with a large surface area, say long and thin, it should cool more easily, especially if it is outside the body work.

That display is great, I love the fact it drives the fuel guage.
Are you going to change the pump motif for something more appropriate?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh the fuel gauge is a neat addition. I'm still getting it dialed in. Lots of little niggles. In other news , i've been slowly increasing the charge voltage per cell in the pack over the past weeks. Up to average of 3.45 per cell this week. Generally read between 3.42 and 3.47 at cv. I'm using a little 100uA ammeter with center zero in a lee hart bridge circuit to monitor balance. Like watching paint dry.

"What are we going to do today , Brain?"
"The same thing we do everyday Pinky , watch the needle!"

Invested in a set of front discs and pads. Old discs were quite worn and I had noticed a judder when under heavy braking. Now that i'm motorway driving!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Finally got a chance to swap out the front brake discs and pads today. Left side were reasonable but right side pads were a mess. Looks like the discs rusted up when the car was off the road being converted then the pads got gummed up with the debris. Feels nice and solid with no drag or judder now.

Had a few problems with the lcd module. Got that sorted also. Pleased to report the soc and range estimates are looking accurate. The bmw fuel gauge is a bit problematic. Needs some research / messing about.

Bout ten days ago i had the front wheel balanced by a major tyre outlet. When i went to undo the wheel nuts today I had a barrel of fun. All 16 stone of me bouncing on the wheel brace wouldn't budge them. Ended up with 6 foot length of steel pipe and a socket bar. Bent the socket bar but got them loose. These guys never heard of a torque limiter on their impact guns!

BMW = Breaks My Wrenches


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Bout ten days ago i had the front wheel balanced by a major tyre outlet. When i went to undo the wheel nuts today I had a barrel of fun. All 16 stone of me bouncing on the wheel brace wouldn't budge them. Ended up with 6 foot length of steel pipe and a socket bar. Bent the socket bar but got them loose. These guys never heard of a torque limiter on their impact guns!
> 
> BMW = Breaks My Wrenches


I hope they didn't stretch those bolts 

Dawid


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks to magudaman my heatsink arrived safe today. I started laying out the new controller.

Believe it or not I had an ex lotus guy drive the bmw today and discovered a few interesting facts:

1: at full thorttle battery amps and motor amps really are the same. 500 in this case.
2: A 48s4p headway pack can hold 142v at 500amps load. Max bat temp 35c.
3: A forklift motor can move a car very fast!
4: A 72v forklift motor can run at 142v , 500amps , 3000rpm and not explode or have a case temp higher than 25c.
5: BMWs corner very well even under power.
6: I can scream very loud.
7: When in doubt , bat-amps-lim 100 !!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> 1: at full thorttle battery amps and motor amps really are the same. 500 in this case.
> 2: A 48s4p headway pack can hold 142v at 500amps load. Max bat temp 35c.
> 3: A forklift motor can move a car very fast!
> 4: A 72v forklift motor can run at 142v , 500amps , 3000rpm and not explode or have a case temp higher than 25c.
> ...


That's useful information to have to hand - wear ear protection when driving with jackbauer!


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## Salty9 (Jul 13, 2009)

A autotrans cooler should be appropriate for cooling. I replaced a OEM one from a Ford F250 that was only as big as a small paperbook book. They used to be fairly cheep too.


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## CrunchTime (Feb 13, 2009)

If he comes round for another drive: We Want Video!

(Maybe with the microphone off, though...)


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Just snagged this little gem on ebay. Perfect for the new liquid cooled controller.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

What is it? A heater core with a fan, or a mini radiator with a fan?  Did it come from an existing vehicle?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Its an oil cooler , i would say from a piece of industrial machinary such as a moulding machine. The fan is 12v dc and its aluminium so should work well.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Progress ..........


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

WOW!! Nice!.........


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I received my E46 throttle pedal today from ebay. It has two hall sensors. 5v 5ma supply each. One outputs 0.77 to 4.2v and the other 0.4v to 1.9v over the range zero to full throttle. I hope to fit this to the car in place of the old throttle pedal and cable system which has started giving trouble.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Pedal installation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrigNHzXuEU


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

"Typical Haynes manual isn't it? Just eases right out"


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## pm_dawn (Sep 14, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Progress ..........


 
What are those IGBTs ?? 400A duals ???

I have a couple of IGBTs I would like to build a Sepex controller out of.
Have you modified the Revolt in any way to make it drive the IGBTs ?


Regards
/Per


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The igbts are powerex cm400du-12f parts. In this application they are being driven by VLA500K-01R igbt drivers. The rev c revolt baord has been modified to output the 5v inverted pwm required by these drivers. I'll have more details once i get the controller finished.

Jeez , what a day. Spent most of the day running errands. The first of which got the car covered in cow poo and muck and saved me having to hire a vibration table to test the systems! Fortunatly a few showers got rid of the worst of it before it baked on.

Then I ran outta juice. 41.1 miles of mixed driving. Some motorway at 60-70mph and some back roads at 30-50mph. About 7 miles from base i knew i wasn't going to make it so diverted to a friend's garage. Crept up the lane in first and just got there. Switched off with a little under 120v resting. All the cells were sitting between 2.4 and 2.6v except one which was 2.1v. Total of 62.2ah removed from the pack. Got a charge and a mug of tea! Not a bad ending to the day

.......now just gotta get rid of that smell............


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> 41.1 miles of mixed driving.
> <snip>
> Total of 62.2ah removed from the pack.


So someething like 250Wh/mile? that sounds pretty good.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yeh was very happy with that. I didn't hypermile it until the very end but didn't drive very hard either.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

More controller .........


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

That is some serious fabricating skill.

You do the aluminium machining yourself or at a machine shop?
Those pwrx driver boards apear quite large? Are they?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I did it all except the heatsink. Just lots of drilling and taping really. The vla drivers are quite compact. Not large at all.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

Great job!!! I imagine it is almost complete? if after you are finished with this project you are looking for a different challenge take a look at this:
http://www.circuitcellar.com/archives/viewable/217-Ponech_McIntyre_Krahn_Hall_Kasmer/4.html

I found it when I was searching for 'powerex cm400du-12f'


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

efan said:


> Great job!!! I imagine it is almost complete? if after you are finished with this project you are looking for a different challenge take a look at this:
> http://www.circuitcellar.com/archives/viewable/217-Ponech_McIntyre_Krahn_Hall_Kasmer/4.html
> 
> I found it when I was searching for 'powerex cm400du-12f'


I hope Damien does! 

My work in progress attempt to do 3phase for AC Induction motors. Hope it works out and if it does it wont be sooner than 2012. Wandering with the idea to make it opensource/hardware. Electronics should be not that much of a problem, mechanics and firmware still ar blanks.
Anyone who's good in writing firmware or mechanics is welcome to join this endeavour.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Nice work Steven. I would be more onboard with the idea of an ac controller if suitable motors were more readilly available.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

steven4601 said:


> I hope Damien does!
> 
> My work in progress attempt to do 3phase for AC Induction motors. Hope it works out and if it does it wont be sooner than 2012. Wandering with the idea to make it opensource/hardware. Electronics should be not that much of a problem, mechanics and firmware still ar blanks.
> Anyone who's good in writing firmware or mechanics is welcome to join this endeavour.


Hey Steven,
I wish I could help, but I dont have any programing skills...maybe you can ask here:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...-3-phase-inverter-ac-controller-10839-52.html

and maybe try to contact this person and share ideas or something:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaWrr5xQu7Y


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Nice work Steven. I would be more onboard with the idea of an ac controller if suitable motors were more readilly available.


I'd bet HPEVS would sell you a motor without the Curtis controller, or you might find an ABM forklift motor like these http://www.evalbum.com/1396


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Good point jrp. I even spotted a 48v ac toyota forklift on the scrap pile last year when i went to pickup the motors for the bike. I might give them a call and see what's about.......

Did a little extra on the controller today.Built and fitted the little igbt interface card. Just a piece of stripboard comprised of 8 resistors. Four off 3R3 2W for the gates and four off 0R33 2W for the emitters.

I struggled with either cutting the igbt gate leads to different lenghts or keeping them the same. Eventually decided to cut em to size. I suspect the emitter resistors will help them forgive me


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Not far from turning it on are you now?  

Why haven't you connected the wires directly to the pwrx vla drivers?
Is the seperate board for adding gate resistance? Aren't these already integrated on the driver board? The Miller capacitance can take over control of the gate when adding too much series resistance, slowing down the on/off time.

//Steven

edit: ohh think I know already. You want to prevent voltage accros the busbar to induce unwanted gate voltages. Very tricksy. Not sure adding resistors help though.
You already twisted them to couple the wire. For ripple voltages due to the fast- dI/dt the small wires have enough inductance to function as an common mode filter. If not adding ferrite beads should help better than resistors.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm aiming to use one driver for the 4 modules. This way i hope to avoid any tolerance issues between two vla modules. The gate resistors control the switching time. High resistance = long switching time and increased switching losses. Low resistance = short switching time , less switching loss but onset of ringing. Its a compromise. No doubt i'll end up changing them! The emitter resistors are sized at approx 10% of the gate resistor. In a parallel setting they allow small loop currents to form between the kelvin emitters thus greatly reducing the problem of one device turing on or off before the other and taking all the hit.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> If not adding ferrite beads should help better than resistors.


I was about to say that went through a nightmare on one of my latest robots at 15 KHZ and stopped all the oscillations and rings with tiny little ferrite beads over the business-end of the driver resistors..... Looks really great Jack!! 
\


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

First bench tests of the new controller completed sucessfully today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_I_Ny7tiYg

The vla500k module gives a very nice drive signal on the gate. Almost no miller knee. So all i gotta worry about now are some nasty inductances lurking in there. I'll be using a forklift hydraulic pump and a variable pressure blow off valve as a load.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here's a few pics of the mostly completed controller. Just got to fit the solid state relay and freewheel diode for my pesky shunt field. 

For the home charge point , i decided simple is better. An outdoor 32amp 240v switched industrial socket. Cabled back to the fusebox with 6mm sq and protected by a 32A 30mA rcbo. Job done.


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## DavidDymaxion (Dec 1, 2008)

I bow in your general direction for building your own controller!

Does using a solid state relay mean you are just going to switch the field on and not modulate it?


jackbauer said:


> Here's a few pics of the mostly completed controller. Just got to fit the solid state relay and freewheel diode for my pesky shunt field. ...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The shunt is switched on at greater than 5% throttle and off at less than 10%. I found that running the shunt with no series field present (ie zero throttle) caused the commutator to light up like a catherine wheel. No one has as yet provided a reasonable explanation for this phenomenon hence the switching.

The original design for the forklift had it running at 4 amps. I run at 1.5amps as the best compromise between top rpm and starting torque. Obviously a field controller would be ideal but so far i have had success with this simple arrangement.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well the controller is done. Now just have to bench test it and install in the car. Still trying to decide on a rad and fill bottle setup......

The transistors seem to be switching nicely with no surprises. I guess 500amps at 150v will tell the tale. The controller now has a brake signal input. When this goes active pwm is commanded to zero regardless of throttle input. If current does not fall to zero in an acceptable time , the main contactor opens.


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Well the controller is done. Now just have to bench test it and install in the car. Still trying to decide on a rad and fill bottle setup......
> 
> The transistors seem to be switching nicely with no surprises. I guess 500amps at 150v will tell the tale. The controller now has a brake signal input. When this goes active pwm is commanded to zero regardless of throttle input. If current does not fall to zero in an acceptable time , the main contactor opens.


Nice job Jack. I'm sure I speak for many when I say that I'm envious of someone who can build their own motor controller.. Way to go.... again!

Gary


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

We now have a brake signal input on the controller. It will ignore throttle demand while the brake is pressed. This modification removes a potential problem with a failed power stage or stuck throttle pedal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLHFJS5cFzs

In other news i've started to do my daily commute all motorway. I used to only drive about 3 miles of motorway before getting off onto slower roads. With the rather amazing energy useage of the car that i have witnessed the full 10 miles of motorway is no problem. 60 - 70mph all the way. 5th gear , 3000 to 3200rpm and 100 to 150amps. Its kinda crazy to find myself overtaking ice cars on a motorway.......

Edit : sorry didnt realise i was repeating myself bout the brake signal


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Bench test of the liquid cooling system :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BVI3LcYZqA


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good set up jack, Have you tried it with heat on the chill plate?

You could place a halogen lamp over the plate to heat it up while chilling to see how it copes with removing heat and see if the thermal stresses in the plate affect the seals.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Bench test of the liquid cooling system :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BVI3LcYZqA


Nice - as usual Jack! And as usual I downloaded and watched the video off of my lowly dialup LOL... ... Keep up the good info..


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

One question for you Jack - is the cap vented for expansion? I would assume so by the little black part. As it heats there may be a bit of expansion - but less than an amp for that pump - Nice! I hope you can get some temp readings on the cooler fins - I would be curious just how much it takes away! Might be nice in a core in winter with a bypass to a out side cooler for summer. As you say - it might not be much heat but maybe nice to keep the fog off the windscreen. Very efficient! Again nice job....


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks guys , it worked out a lot easier than i thought. I could heat up the chill plate but to be honest i'll probably leave that part for when its running in the car. The cap is vented and as i said i dont really expect much temp rise on the coolant. Time will tell i guess.


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## DawidvC (Feb 14, 2010)

Nice work, Jack.

Dawid


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## infantry11b (Feb 6, 2010)

Did anyone here get some emails from infantry11b - got hacked from china and peru and they started sending emails. if you did, DON'T FOLLOW THE LINK, JUST DELETE IT! think I have to solved.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Quite a few people have asked me to quantify the cost and performance of the car to date. This started out as (and still really is) a budget build. So here is a little roundup on costs and some general thoughts and findings from the project so far.

The cost : 7000 to 7500 euros approx , and yes most of that is in the battery. I was lucky in that i was able to recoup 75% of the cost of the original agm lead acid pack. I have not included incedental costs regarding this pack such as racks , cables etc. Had i just gone with lithium from day one these costs would not have been incured anyway.

Performance : Top speed so far of 75mph. This is mainly due to the requirement of keeping the traction motor under 3500rpm and the fact that the donor was geared for the much underpowered 1600cc petrol engine. Acceleration is similar to a 2.2 or 2.5l diesel even when starting in 3rd.

Range : Real world range of a little over 40 miles at motorway speeds of 60-70mph. Estimate 50 miles of city driving at 25-35mph.

A few other general comments.

I don't regret ditching the clutch. As its a budget build this enabled me to do my own adapter plate and coupler and posed much less of an engineering challenge. Up and down shifting is easy with a little practice.

The forklift motor has turned out to be a good choice. Once setup with the correct brush timing etc its performed flawlessly at 200% rated voltage and 250% nameplate rpm!

The controller has also worked great. Not one problem whatsoever despite my ever increasing traction voltage! Its a testament to the revolt team. I will take a little bit of credit for using an igbt based power stage but the magic is in the control board. I'm upgrading to a liquid cooled version as the only slight issue is an overheat on long drives.

The lithium traction battery transformed this car. Totally. It went from a mediocre , oversized golf cart with 4 fat passengers (myself included in that!) to feeling like i dumped the passengers and dropped in a 2.5 diesel! The only thing it lacks is range. But that's the same with any ev. Even a tesla.It made such a difference that i had to have the wheels balanced and replace the front discs. I'd would recommend in the strongest possible terms to anyone considering a conversion to use lithium. Beg , borrow or steal them. I'm not going to discuss bms in depth. Its been done to death. Some do however see its cost as an obstruction to choosing lithium. I don't run one. I'm not dead yet (don't worry i have left a letter with my lawyer to be opened upon my death telling the world i was wrong). If you do want one , plenty exist in nice simple cheap formats. 'nuff said.

The charger has also worked flawlessly (thanks Simon) despite my less than stellar build quailty. Has ran on both a 120v lead acid agm pack and a 152v lithium. Its non isolated and i have never received a shock to date (letter covers this topic also!). Its never hiccuped , crashed or done anything other than just charge the battery. I'm sure the power factor is crap and its not this and its not that but so what? Few other options give the balance of cost and flexibility.

Many people pine and pine over what to do about power steering. The mr2 pas pump just works. Lots of other electric pas pumps now available at junkyard prices. I'm using a gm pas pump on my next e36 project.Case closed. Ditto the brake vac setup. Audi A4 brake pump. Quiet , cheap , powerfull , designed for the task. The end. 

Dc Dc converters. I dont use one. Four thundersky 100ah cells provide all the 12v systems with ample power. A $90 chennic charger keeps them charged from the mains.

So there ya go. Bit of an ev rant  Hope it gives some food for thought.


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## Jan (Oct 5, 2009)

OK. Clear. Thanks. No questions, no remarks. Audi vacuum pump. Noted.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

One question, what's the advantage of using a $90 Chennic charger to keep the 12V battery powered instead of a $99 Chennic DC/DC to keep the battery charged, other than the $9 savings?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

None really other than the fact i had the tsky cells left over from testing and feel a little happier having the 12v systems isolated from the traction. Just a personal preference.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Running the controller wide open on the bench. Held it at over 500amps for 7 minutes! Max heatsink temp of 33C. Melting cables and failing batteries were the only limiting factor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL1Jxw9aCio


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Running the controller wide open on the bench. Held it at over 500amps for 7 minutes! Max heatsink temp of 33C. Melting cables and failing batteries were the only limiting factor:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL1Jxw9aCio


Nice job Jack...


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> Running the controller wide open on the bench. Held it at over 500amps for 7 minutes! Max heatsink temp of 33C. Melting cables and failing batteries were the only limiting factor:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL1Jxw9aCio


 Thanks for sharing the controllers progress with your video


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks guys. Its getting there. I did some more sustained runs at 500amps today. Held it there for 15 minutes and the coolant topped out at 40C. I still got more to go in terms of getting the gate drive right but its looking good. I have to get used to the idea of a brick on the acclerator


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

Instead of a brick you can use an stiff rubber band.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That's a really good demo, jack. 

Do you have a temp sensor in the heatsink area? Just thinking of seeing the comparible temp rise if the pump failed and also if there was no forced airflow through the radiator.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Been quite busy over the past week or so. Did some more extensive bench tests of the controller including a one hour run at 200amps. Temp maxed out at 49C. Between yesterday and today I got the controller installed and went on a brief test drive this afternoon. The coolant system is almost ready to go bar one piece of hose. Naturally all the auto parts shop were closed by the time i realised

The radiator went in very nicely in front of the front battery tray. I even got to practive my overhead welding. So fingers crossed i'll have the cooling up and running by monday evening. I've also got to go through the wiring diagrams to find the brake signal input to the ecu and route that to the controller.After that i need to fit some panel trunking and clean up the rats nest of wiring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5E3EgG0MrQ


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well , the numbers are in. Ambient air temp today was 18C. Got the cooling system installed and went for a 8 mile run up the motorway. Peak temperature on the heatsink........ 24C. Returned by slower (40-50mph) roads. Didn't go above 24C. Got back to base and everything was stone cold. Heatsink , rad , fill bottle.

I'll try and get some video later in the week.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Well , the numbers are in. Ambient air temp today was 18C. Got the cooling system installed and went for a 8 mile run up the motorway. Peak temperature on the heatsink........ 24C. Returned by slower (40-50mph) roads. Didn't go above 24C. Got back to base and everything was stone cold. Heatsink , rad , fill bottle.
> 
> I'll try and get some video later in the week.


so awesome! Congrats on the controller! How high did you take it, amps-wise?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Val. I went to full throttle. 510amps motor side. I did a rolling start in 4th gear with foot to the floor all the way to 60mph.I'll log some data today if i get a chance and post some graphs.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The good:
Ambient air temp this morning of 16C. Arrived in work (13 miles) with the heatsink at 19C. Had to go straight back out again to a site 20 miles away. Was assured I could charge at destination. Got there with the heatsink at guess what? ........19C

The bad:
My "charging station" turned out to be a cheap 5kva single cylinder diesel generator on a building site. It just loved my charger. The exhaust would cough a ring of black smoke every second as the pwm ramped back up after a voltage reading. Not very eco friendly!

The ugly:
Got back to work with 22% soc and all cells happy. I wont even mention the heatsink temp. Yeh you guessed right. 19C. Plugged into the mains to recharge. Bout an hour later i noticed the charger had cutoff. The rcd had tripped. Did some fault finding and thought i had a failure of the input rectifier. Cursing the diesel genny , i swapped it out and replaced the precharge resistor. Power on and WHUMP goes the precharge resistor spitting flames and sparks. Hmmmm. Might be something else wrong. Connected a 100w light bulb into the circuit and repowered. Bulb glowed bright then faded as the bus cap charged. Then POP , bulb glows then dims......POP same again. I killed the power before it sounded like an mp5 on full auto. Bus cap was fried. Naturally I didnt have a suitable replacement in work. So caught a bus home. Fortunatly , i have another cap that i can swap into the charger in the morning.

Moral of this story : Don't recharge your ev with an oil burning , planet destroying generator or the gods will have revenge!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> The good:
> Ambient air temp this morning of 16C. Arrived in work (13 miles) with the heatsink at 19C. Had to go straight back out again to a site 20 miles away. Was assured I could charge at destination. Got there with the heatsink at guess what? ........19C


so, are you going to open it up to more than 500A then? ;-))


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Bus capacitors? Is it an aluminium Electrolytic cap that triggers at a certain voltage into a short?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

steven4601 said:


> Bus capacitors? Is it an aluminium Electrolytic cap that triggers at a certain voltage into a short?


yes. Thats about it.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Finally sourced some orange conduit (Thanks steven4601  ). Got 50 metres of 32mm OD on the German ebay for 35 euros delivered. Had a bit of time today to start retrofitting the traction cables with the new stuff. I intend leaving the undercar black conduit as its steel reinforced.

Also fitted a kilovac ev200 in the B+ line at the pack. It can receive 12v from two sources. The charger 12v power supply or the controller 12v positive. I used two diodes to prevent back feed. This way the contactor will close when charging and when driving but remain open when the car is not in use. The main aim however is an added safety margin in case of a crash or a controller failure. I intend to fit a key release emergency stop station on the firewall at the old clutch pedal mount. With the key on the same ring as the ignition it will be impossible to turn the car on , have the precharge time out then release the e-stop. In this location it can be easilly pressed with the left foot in an emergency but is not sitting on the dash inviting trouble!

Since the controller upgrade I have been doing much more motorway driving. Twice a day in fact to and from work. 15 miles at 60-70mph typically consumes 22-25ah.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

That looks a tidy package in the boot there.

What percentage of your pack capacity are you using for your motorway trips?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

About 40% give or take a few %. Something else i'm looking at is using some underfloor heating material under the pack for battery heating in the winter.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Couple videos to while away the hours:

Update on the liquid cooled controller.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baLBBw7Jqs4

And a test drive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1e4fCNApk


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

40% sounds good, half what you could use I guess.

I'll watch the videos when I'm home, on moble BB at the moment and it is too slow.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Quite mesmerizing to watch an un-cut ev trip like that. I better get back to making the wireloom.

Oh, How many kw is the max output of the new controller?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Seven , hard to say on the power output. Its a 500amp controller capable of 300v in theory. I'm running at 152v. The current limit can be opened up to 675A but to be honest I rarely go over 400amps even on hard acceleration up a hill. I believe some of that is down to using a compound wound motor.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Can someone check my maths here: My work commute typically takes about 25Ah. Mostly motorway at 60+mph. Distance is 14 miles. So by my reckoning that equates to 1.785 Ah / Mile or given a nominal pack voltage of 152v , 271wh/mile. That sound right? Is that a typicall figure?


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Sounds like the low-mid end of the range for a car-sized EV, actually. (and only about ten times what my CrazyBike2 takes, which is practically an SUV of ebikes.  )

EDIT (added): Oh, and you could use a Cycle Analyst from http://ebikes.ca to directly measure that, among other things.


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## steven4601 (Nov 11, 2010)

Damien, 

Using the calc-sheet i made for my z3 it shows at 103km/h (64mph, 19365watt's needed to maintain speed) that the watt-hour per mile is expected to be just over 310. I think you're very close to the correct value as sedans are more aerodynamic than a roadster type of body. 

However, you do have sections where you drive slower? How many miles is that? Also my calculation assume no regen or coasting  at a starting speed of 64mph, with the correct tires and minimal rotordrag a mile should be easily doable with no power input.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well I think that this weekend I at least partly deserved my forum name! I bottom balanced the traction battery yesterday. Started at 8am and didn't get home until 10:30pm. Then this morning I got up at 4:30am to monitor the charge. Just terminated perfectly at 8:40am. Not quite a full '24' but as close as i'm gonna get for now

Here are a few video snapshots of the day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4EXAzl9HPI

I was amazed at how much energy is contained in these cells. Firstly I drove the car until 35ah had been removed. All cells were still above 3.2 volts. Next I used a 1000w 12v inverter , a portable heater and a combination of cellog8 and 4 digit dmms to monitor each 12v string. The inverter drew them down at 120amps then 60amps until a cell droped below 2.5v. Then the really boring part. Using a resistor and dmm on each cell to pull them down to 2.500v.Twice. All 48. Now I know that's not strictly how it should be done and that its not an accurate bottom balance but the most important point imho is that the cells go over the knee at the same point give or take a few mV.

I did have one cell block go to 0v. This block was partly comprised of cells that i had received from headway at about 1.6v but did charge and run normally. Seems that when they were pulled down the curve they craped out. Attempts to revive them with a 10amp psu were unsuccessfull. Fortunatly I had 4 spares that i was using as the 12v battery in the CBR. Swapped them out easilly. I'm gonna order a few spares from manzanita to have in stock.

Once done I used an external charger to pump 50amps into them until an average of 3.42v per cell then go cv. By my calcs I put 52ah into the pack. The drive home pulled out 25ah then the charge this morning returned 33ah so I have about 60 ish ah in the pack. At end of charge they were all at 3.42 +/-3mV. Not bad for a bog man  I will ease up the charge voltage during the week until one of em hits 3.6v then roll it back a little. The trick then is to see if the cells maintain balance. Some say they will others say they won't. Time to find out ...


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

From what people have reported about the consistency of the Headways I would not be surprised if they did not remain balanced the way the larger prismatics do.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Quite possible JRP. Time will tell I guess.


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## drgrieve (Apr 14, 2011)

Hi been reading through your thread - I'm interested in headway pack construction so have learnt a lot from your posts.

I'm wondering what your pack voltage sag for two different amp readings for the same SOC. From that I can work out the pack IR. This would be valuable for me to determine roughly how many cells I might need.

Thanks!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I made the local paper:
http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/damien-decides-to-give-his-car-an-extra-spark-2870238.html?start=2

Just gotta get the tv deal now


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I made the local paper:
> http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/damien-decides-to-give-his-car-an-extra-spark-2870238.html?start=2
> 
> Just gotta get the tv deal now


Jack (I know it's really Damien Maguire):

Fantastic!! Nice writeup and Pic - Mr. Casual ..

  !


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Very well done and a nice write up.

It is good to see the recognition for what you have achieved.


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## mrbigh (Dec 31, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> I made the local paper:
> http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/damien-decides-to-give-his-car-an-extra-spark-2870238.html?start=2
> 
> Just gotta get the tv deal now


Congrats!!!


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## DIYguy (Sep 18, 2008)

Yes, nice job Damien. A great showcase for what can be done.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> I made the local paper:
> http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/damien-decides-to-give-his-car-an-extra-spark-2870238.html?start=2
> 
> Just gotta get the tv deal now


Very cool! Congrats!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words guys Yesterday and today I took the car into Dublin city and used some of the on street charge points. On the return trip of 22 miles today I consumed 32.6AH for an average of 227wh/mile. One of the charge points kept kicking off the power and flashed up "ground fault" on the display. Not sure if it was the car or the pole at fault. Considering the charger has a 30mA RCD on the inlet I can't see it being the car. Gonna have to check the earth line current with a milliammeter.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Cool Damien!

The article is a rare gem,
honest and detailed for a change.
Bummer that you have to go for the NCT every year!


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Earth leakage current is a whopping 4.3uA


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

With winter fast approaching I have been looking at options for battery warming. Finailly settled on some 240v 40W/m soil heating cable. Total of 10 Metres for 400w approx. Its quite rugged and double insulated. Got some time this morning to thread it through the pack. I have a little PID controller , relay , rcbo and a timer to fit in a box to act as a control system. Plan is if its getting too hot I'll take a leaf out of the capacitive charger book and just put a motor run cap in series to drop the power.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

Why not just use a thermostat on it?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

I guess that's what this is really. I needed some control and safety bits in there also. With the temp controller I can program limits etc.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Had a meeting in Dublin this morning so decided to take the ev. Plugged into an electrobay 3 phase 32amp 7 pin charge point for some free fuel  Pity the parking wasn't free also! Can't wait to get the 10kw charger up and running.

The car returned very impressive efficency for both journeys. 32Ah in and 35Ah on the return 20 mile trip. About 250wh/mile approx. 2/3 motorway 1/3 city traffic.


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## adamj12b (May 4, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Had a meeting in Dublin this morning so decided to take the ev. Plugged into an electrobay 3 phase 32amp 7 pin charge point for some free fuel  Pity the parking wasn't free also! Can't wait to get the 10kw charger up and running.
> 
> The car returned very impressive efficency for both journeys. 32Ah in and 35Ah on the return 20 mile trip. About 250wh/mile approx. 2/3 motorway 1/3 city traffic.


Look in the second picture. 

You can clearly see the woman in gold car staring at the car as she drives by! 

Also, Is you cord provided by you or with the charge station?

-Adam


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

adamj12b said:


> Look in the second picture.
> 
> You can clearly see the woman in gold car staring at the car as she drives by!
> 
> ...


I would suppose it is Damien's cord as the ESB charge stations in Dublin come without one.
@Jackbauer: what kind of plug is used there / in your car anyway?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDE-AR-E_2623-2-2#VDE-AR-E_2623-2-2 (German Type, "Mennekes")?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

marc, yeh its the 7 pin mennekes. My own cable. Uses the same pilot signals as sae j1772. Power at the pole is 3 phase 415v 32amps. Hope to use this with the new 10kw charger.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Jack

I am using the Headway 16Ah cells like yours, mine will be in one layer but sitting vertically - how far apart are yours? and if you did it again would you move them closer together or farther apart?

Just about to cut "metal" - 

Duncan


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

The cells are spaced 20mm apart. If doing it again I would probably leave it at 10mm.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks Jack, that was very helpful

_The cells are spaced 20mm apart. If doing it again I would probably leave it at 10mm. _

Mine are going to be 10mm apart - in the series direction and 15mm apart in the parallel direction (air flow direction)


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Little update. Been pritty much just charging and driving the past few months. Inevitable happened a few weeks back and I ran out of juice less than a mile from a charge point. Voltage dropped under 110v and that was that. Had to get a tow. While i was waiting for the recovery truck i measured all the cell voltages.All between 2.3v and 2.7v. Recharged and drove home. No drama.

Back during the summer I installed 10m of 40w/metre heating cable in the pack. Tried it a few times but found the cable to be getting too hot for comfort. Never really bothered much with it till last week when temp started dropping. Kicked around all sort of ideas for a temp controller when the penny dropped. Wired a plain simple diode in series with the ac supply to the heater cable. Instant 50% duty cycle and the cable now runs nice and warm but not too hot. The difference in performance has been amazing. The cable heats the boot area up to about 30-35C depending on ambient temp. This morning was very cold (bout 5C) and the pack was at 30. Prior to this the car would have been very sluggish as amps increased and voltage dropped. Now it goes like a scalded cat!

Picked up one of these on ebay :http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250907210222?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
for the 12v battery. Reckon my diode trick might just let me run it on 240v without a transformer.

Lots of jobs still to do. Fit new charger , upgrade cabin heater etc.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

Couldn't you have pushed the mile or at least to the nearest power outlet?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Nope. Once the cells go over the knee thats it. Outta gas


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## Coulomb (Apr 22, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> Nope. Once the cells go over the knee...


I think Marcexec meant to push _manually_ (using sheer muscle power) the last mile 

Not as fit as you once were?


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

I pushed my car a few hundred feet to get it over a hump so I could regen down the hill once, it wasn't fun. Voltage did recover a bit as I was pushing it so I was able to jump back in and use the motor to get over the last part of the hump.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

LOL so what we need is a suitcase size HV battery pack to get us a few miles at a crawl to get out of sticky situations!


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)




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## piotrsko (Dec 9, 2007)

that was my thought but a wee bit bigger, say 6kw


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well I finally got the new liquid cooled charger installed and running in the car. Took a few days as I had to move the 12v battery from the front back up to the original battery tray which wasn't really designed to hold 4 x 100ah tsky cells! Removed the tray from the car and used a milling machine to remove all the bump , lumps and brackets from it then used some light flat steel to make it a bit bigger. Just fits in. Barely. Also purchased a Kats 60w battery heater blanket on ebay. Being from the US its 120v so i decided to try my diode trick to get it to work on 240v. Wired an 1N5408 diode and 1 amp fuse in the line. Seems to warm up nicely.

Charger has a few software issues I need to resolve around end of charge detection but boy is it fast! Took the pack from 48% to 95% in a half hour. Peak input power of 10.5kw. The fuseboard at home started making interesting popping and creaking sounds as it warmed up the charger is so powerful compared to the pack capacity that it only spent a few minutes in CC phase!.Measured a total power factor of .982 for the vehicle. That includes main charger , aux battery charger (chennic) and two battery heaters.


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## marcexec (Feb 11, 2009)

jackbauer said:


> ...
> Charger has a few software issues I need to resolve around end of charge detection but boy is it fast! Took the pack from 48% to 95% in a half hour. Peak input power of 10.5kw. The fuseboard at home started making interesting popping and creaking sounds as it warmed up the charger is so powerful compared to the pack capacity that it only spent a few minutes in CC phase!.Measured a total power factor of .982 for the vehicle. That includes main charger , aux battery charger (chennic) and two battery heaters.


Awesome news, Jack!
I especially like the high efficiency you are getting.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Here is a rather boring video on the cabin heater setup :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OShGguNwP74

I'd like to wish everyone a happy new year and take this opportunity to thank you for all the help and encouragement.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

DIY must have been down awhile - Happy New Year to all!


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> Here is a rather boring video on the cabin heater setup :
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OShGguNwP74
> 
> I'd like to wish everyone a happy new year and take this opportunity to thank you for all the help and encouragement.


Well done. BTW, have you thought about heat pump setup for heating? Do you have A/C in your car?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

No I don't have A/C. Not really an essential in Ireland with the 2 weeks of sun we usually get The ceramic system is nice , simple and seems to be working well.


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## valerun (Nov 12, 2010)

jackbauer said:


> No I don't have A/C. Not really an essential in Ireland with the 2 weeks of sun we usually get The ceramic system is nice , simple and seems to be working well.


;-) just got the same comment from someone in UK ;-)

Happy New Year BTW - I believe you still have 2 hours to go or so? ;-)


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

thanks Val. Yep , bout 3 hours to go.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well time for a few updates. Firstly , I had a rather graphic demonstration on the advantages of an EV today. Ran an errand this morning to a local hardware shop and on the way back I had to wait for a gap in traffic to make a right turn. The turn is about 100 yards out from some bad bends and has a 30mph speed limit. So i'm sitting there in 3rd gear waiting for a gap. Looked in the rearview and see a white freezer truck round the bend at warp speed and the driver has dropped something in the cab and is not looking at the road.

I rammed the accelerator to the floor (and I do mean RAMMED!) and leaned on the horn. One back tyre broke traction briefly and the car launched forward. Truck kept getting bigger and bigger in the rearview then when I was bracing for the impact we pulled apart. I reckon I did 0-60kph in about 3 seconds!! Controller pegged out at 541 battery amps.

I honestly don't know if I'd have made it in an ICE vehicle.

If I had one fault to find with the car it would be top end acceleration. I can get to 70mph on the flat but it tends to fall off to 65mph on a hill especially if the battery is cold. At 250 amps the pack sags to around 140v so I've been considering a voltage upgrade for some time. The planets eventually lined up and I got the money together to purchase an additional 16 pieces of 16Ah headway cells that arrived today. A good thing to it would seem as they are now out of production. This will bring the pack to 52s4p for a nominal 166V. 

So far I have over 7000 miles on this pack without a problem. Just charge and drive. Bought a usb borescope on ebay last weekend so planning to set it up on the com of the motor and go for a drive. Should make an interesting video!


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Good bit of driving there, jack, well done to you and the car.

Will you be doing a 'show and tell' on adding in the additional batteries too?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Thanks Woody Yeh i'll be showing the procedure to bottom balance with the lightobject voltmeter and marrying in the new cells.


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

jackbauer said:


> So far I have over 7000 miles on this pack without a problem. Just charge and drive.


I thought you had a bank of cells go bad?


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Yep one block of cells died during the bottom balance last september. I cannot honestly say if it was a bad cell or my own inattention that caused the failure. What I should have said was I've had no issues in everyday use.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

My borescope turned up today and I couldn't resist a little video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoxnjPc-sgU

Just ran the motor in neutral upto 2k rpm and back down. Com doesn't look too bad for 10k miles at twice its rated voltage and 3x rated rpm! I'm away with work for next week or so but I'll set it up to film an entire commute pointing at the com on my return.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Back home today and decided to have a little EV therapy. Built up the 16 cell module as per the photos. end bus bars are 20x5mm copper bar and center plates are made from 1.5mm copper. In the main pack in the car is used 2 x 1.5mm plates for a total of 3mm on the intermediate bus bars. Not sure if that wasn't a bit of overkill.

Next part of the plan will be to bottom balance then build a module to install in the car.


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## Dave Koller (Nov 15, 2008)

Those yellow end pieces --- they look familiar. Or did you injection-mold them?
The setup looks SUPER! Nice thinking out of the box ...


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well , after years of searching I finally found it! A 2.6:1 ratio small case bmw diff. These things are like rocking horse manure. As far as I'm aware they were fitted to the 318tds e36 compact and the 525d e34. This example turned up out of the blue last weekend on ebay for £25 and I snapped it up. Seems to be in good condition so will be swapping it into the car asap. The current 3.38 diff really limits the top end. 65mph in 5th gear yields 3000rpm and there is little power left above that for overtaking , motorway merging etc. The way people drive in this country on motorways it can be problematic Either 40mph or 90 , and the zip effect is something practiced in the bedroom. According to this website :http://www.endtuning.com/gearratios.html the new diff will yield 70mph at 3000rpm in 4th gear and will make second usable. Fingers crossed the theory pans out. 

In other news I did a lot of testing on the 4s4p headway pack on the bench with the JLD404 ah meter. Learned a lot. 16ah cells are really 14ah.Found a dead cell and contacted Manzanita. They very kindly shipped me not just one but 4 replacements. Problem was UPS. Get this. Cells shipped from the west coast of the United States to Dublin. UPS then decided and I quote "UPS prohibit air transport of this hazardous material". So. What to do. Do we A) put it in a van and drive it 30 miles to my house or B)put it back on a plane and fly it back to the west coast of America. No prizes for the right answer. After 2 weeks of messing about they arrived today. Manzanita were great throughout the ordeal considering I had not even paid for the cells! 

So more cells in the battery , lower ratio diff and new secret project "X" bmw to follow.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Little update on the battery pack. Now running at 52s4p :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardAwJT82Ks


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## somanywelps (Jan 25, 2012)

jackbauer said:


> Well , after years of searching I finally found it! A 2.6:1 ratio small case bmw diff. These things are like rocking horse manure. As far as I'm aware they were fitted to the 318tds e36 compact and the 525d e34. This example turned up out of the blue last weekend on ebay for £25 and I snapped it up. Seems to be in good condition so will be swapping it into the car asap. The current 3.38 diff really limits the top end. 65mph in 5th gear yields 3000rpm and there is little power left above that for overtaking , motorway merging etc. The way people drive in this country on motorways it can be problematic Either 40mph or 90 , and the zip effect is something practiced in the bedroom. According to this website :http://www.endtuning.com/gearratios.html the new diff will yield 70mph at 3000rpm in 4th gear and will make second usable. Fingers crossed the theory pans out.
> 
> In other news I did a lot of testing on the 4s4p headway pack on the bench with the JLD404 ah meter. Learned a lot. 16ah cells are really 14ah.Found a dead cell and contacted Manzanita. They very kindly shipped me not just one but 4 replacements. Problem was UPS. Get this. Cells shipped from the west coast of the United States to Dublin. UPS then decided and I quote "UPS prohibit air transport of this hazardous material". So. What to do. Do we A) put it in a van and drive it 30 miles to my house or B)put it back on a plane and fly it back to the west coast of America. No prizes for the right answer. After 2 weeks of messing about they arrived today. Manzanita were great throughout the ordeal considering I had not even paid for the cells!
> 
> So more cells in the battery , lower ratio diff and new secret project "X" bmw to follow.


Yeah, the lowest gear set I've found that I could use for a swap is 2.93 =/


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

Well , long time no update. The car has been running great and just recently I decided it was high time to replace the tyres. I'd been running on the original tyres that came with the car when I purchased it in '09. Although they still had some thread they were showing signs of cracking along the sidewalls and would have failed the NCT (annual inspection) that's due in a few weeks. Since the Lithium upgrade to 52s4p the car has returned 2Ah/mile consistently. 

I went for a set of 4 Bridegestone Ecopia EP150 tyres as they were only marginally more expensive then a budget brand. Now the car is returning between 1.2 and 1.3Ah/mile!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv39QDI8ynk


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## JRP3 (Mar 7, 2008)

That's a nice efficiency upgrade.


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