# [EVDL] LionEV



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I hope you get something back for such a bum turn of events. I wish I
could help.




> Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
> > My story:
> > http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Get all personal details on the owners possible. $30 sometimes is enough.
This will help them from escaping underground when you sue them.

File a law suit aspap AND contact the attorney general in the state they reside.

You do not need a full-time lawyer to file. But just have a name on there if possible so you make them think you have one.

Get 30minutes of leagle advise on what basis to file the lawsuit.

Also contact the BBB and get any back-up information you can to add to the suit.








Arak Leatham - Web and Desktop Systems Developer> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 18:28:46 -0600> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: [EVDL] LionEV> > My story:> http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt> > I may be adding more detail.> > -- > Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 31 days 13 hours 26 minutes> > _______________________________________________> For subscription options, see> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt
> >
> Sadly, I'm not even remotely surprised, after my "research." I hope you
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > My story:
> > http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt
> >
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Their Wikipedia page could do with some updating, and possible 
comments on whether or not they have delivered any vehicles.

As it is, it's pretty much a Spamvertisement for the company, written 
by a user named ElectricOne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LionEV

-Frank



> Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > My story:
> > http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Didn't Mike Moore from Ampmobile traverse the list not too long ago saying
he was doing conversions for LionEV? I can't remember when that was to look
up the post. Maybe you could contact him to see if indeed he did indeed
sever a relationship with LionEV and if he has any information to help you
file your case.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Chuck Homic
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 6:09 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV
> 


> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> > > http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt
> > >
> > Sadly, I'm not even remotely surprised, after my "research." I hope you
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Dan - LionEV appears to be run by a guy - Ken Curry - who was convicted of
fraud and sent to prison in 2005 for selling gold coins on EBay the he
didn't actually have. I imagine he already understands what he's doing.





> Dan Frederiksen-2 wrote:
> >
> > Willie McKemie wrote:
> >> My story:
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only
hearing one side of the story. So far the dealings
I've had with LionEV, and the Texas Dealer has all
been good. The Texas rep was even at our local
Electric Auto Association last Saturday. 

It would have been much smarter to have contacted the
Texas dealer and ask him to look into the situation
that occured rather than blast a one sided rant to the
list regarding your dealings with LionEV and
AmpMobile. 

For one, when you purchase a car from anywhere, the
darn thing depreciates as soon as it leaves the lot.
Prices on new vehicles fluctuate throughout the year,
not to mention how do we know you compared exact model
to model when you priced the vehicle with a local
dealer, etc..... I can't imagine how you'd not expect
to pay taxes on a vehicle when you transfer it from
one state to the other, and so on and so on.......

It's a bad situation, and I feel for you, it's
probably been mishandled by all three parties
involved. I would not have handled it the way you
have, is all I'm saying. 






> --- Steve Condie <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Dan - LionEV appears to be run by a guy - Ken Curry
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just be sure you continue to share your experiences with us even if/when they turn sour. It would be a real disservice to us all if you continue to defend them up until the day they turn on you and then you go quiet. If you continue to get what you pay for then good for you but if not please let us know.

damon


> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:40:07 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV
>
> There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only
> hearing one side of the story. So far the dealings
> I've had with LionEV, and the Texas Dealer has all
> been good. The Texas rep was even at our local
> Electric Auto Association last Saturday.
>
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> M. Barkley wrote:
> > There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only
> > hearing one side of the story.
> Mike, we've been begging on this list to get some other side of the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

You bet, I'll certainly let everyone know how my
experiences go, as I've said they are great to work
with, and the Texas Rep, I'm sure would have done his
best to sort out the mess. I hope for the best for
both parties in the experience posted with the Hyundai
Accent. 

I've eaten crow before, and I'm sure some here have as
well..... lol

Either way, we should always have something to wash it
down with.

Now, lets get back to building and experimenting with
EV's.






> --- damon henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Just be sure you continue to share your experiences
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Here's my side:
In late October I began trying to get a test drive of the Accent or Tuscon conversions. First I was told that could be arranged. I suggested that I would drive to Virginia with my wife so we could decide if we wanted to buy one of the conversions. It was then suggested that it would soon be possible to test drive one in Huntsville, LA which was closer. I checked and there was less than 100miles difference. I suggested that I would rather come to Virginia and would really like a quick tour of their facilities. Next it was suggested that there would be a location in the Chicago area where we would be able to test the drive a car. This seemed to progress as expected except I never was given a name, an address, or a phone number where I could make the arrangements. When the date I that I asked to schedule the test drive approached, I was told that the vehicle had arrived but they were getting the batteries. I gave them my phone number, email address and home address and!
asked to be notified when the car would be ready with the phone number to call to make the appointment. This was near the end of November. I waited a couple of weeks without any communications. I emailed again but received no reply. About mid December I checked the LionEV website and discovered that they were closed for the Holidays. The Huntsville location was no longer listed. However, there was an email address for an Illinois Representative. I waited until January to email this representative. I have actually sent three emails since January one and have not received a reply. I willnot email them again.

I will not blindly make a $1000 nonrefundable deposit with out test driving a car. 

Beano -- 1981 Ford Escort EV 
EValbum 1010Ted Sanders

> > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:40:07 -0800> > From: [email protected]> > To: [email protected]> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] LionEV> >> > There's always 2 sides to every story... I'm only> > hearing one side of the story. d
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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
EV did such a poor job. They ask at the end for the
perons name to be changed to CUSTOMER, by the way. I
also edited out some other specific data.

LionEV maybe indeed be the bad guy, but if the below
is true, I'd hate for everyone to keep the bad
impression I'm reading that they have.

Read on.

Scott


===



Our process requires half up front once we locate your
car, and provide
you with a VIN, the remainder when the vehicle arrives
for conversion. 
Vehicles are shipped to us without a title, we receive
a certificate of
origin as a manufacturer of electric vehicles. When
the conversion is
completed we order the title in the name of the owner,
or bank,
depending on whether it is an outright buy, or a
financed vehicle.
This
customer appears to have decided to write his own
rules.

First of all, the customer "CUSTOMER" did not pay for
a
conversion. The details follow.

The first of August, 2007 Mr. CUSTOMER ordered an ice
blue accent
conversion. We had one in fleet inventory so we
provided him with the
VIN <VIN>. Mr. CUSTOMER mailed a check for $15,560.22
which
was received on August 14th. This was the 1/2 down to
secure the
vehicle. 

On August 18 the vehicle arrived for conversion, but
Mr. CUSTOMER chose
to have us (as he put it), "hold for conversion". He
did not complete
the transaction. Instead Mr. CUSTOMER requested that
we title the
vehicle "as is" in his name.

Without a conversion having taken place, we could not
issue a new
title.
The only two options were sign over a title, or try
to create a
replacement title for Mr. CUSTOMER. Since Mr.
CUSTOMER wanted to
re-title
it in Texas, the SC title was signed over to him as
the new owner. SC
title number XXX . Owner registrant LionEV, buyer
CUSTOMER.

Mr. CUSTOMER assuming that the Texas Department of
Motor Vehicles, like
all other states, was staffed by kind and reasonable
people, presented
the title for replacement. The Texas DMV told him he
would have to pay
taxes on the vehicle. They suspected that he was
trying to evade sales
tax on the vehicle. He of course did not pay the tax,
so he left
without a title.

CUSTOMER then contacted us and asked for help in doing
things his way
with the Texas DMV. He requested and received many
forms.

On September 12, 2007 we sent a SCDMV form for title
transfer.

On September 12, 2007 we sent a Request for title
transfer directed at
the Texas DMV on his behalf.

On November 21, 2007 we provided a bill of sale
affidavit.

On November 26, 2007 we sent a satisfaction of lien.

On November 27, 2007 we produced proof of tax payment
forms.

During the month of December numerous emails were sent
back and forth
providing what documents were requested, but no
forward movement was
made.

January 11, 2008 and the situation with the Texas DMV
still had not
been
resolved, and it did not look like it ever would be. 
A meeting was
held
at LionEV to determine what course of action would be
appropriate to
help the customer. It was decided that the best way
to put it to rest
would be to offer a fully converted vehicle to replace
the Accent since
we could then use our certificate of origin to issue a
new title. You
can't win with the DMV by trying to play by your own
rules. Our
current
vehicles are Ranger trucks, Escape EV's, and Escape
PHEV's. Our Texas
dealer had requested an Escape PHEV to demo so even
though this would
cost LionEV $13,000 it was decided to offer to replace
the Accent with
an Escape PHEV at no additional cost. This would put
one of the PHEV's
in Texas. The customer declined and said that he
didn't want an ICE.

The management of LionEV is currently meeting to
discuss a delivery
date
for a Ranger for CUSTOMER. There are two scheduled to
ship in to
Texas this week, so they are trying to see what they
can do to get his
on that same truck. Once those details are known he
will be contacted
with that offer.

This is not a case of lack of attention, this is a
case of the State of
Texas thinking a citizen is trying to defraud them of
tax revenues. 
Since no conversion took place this raised red flags. 
Had the
conversion been done there would have been no
questions.

Please publish the details of this transaction where
appropriate. I am
sure that the customer's name was probably published
on the EV board
you
mention, but my office has asked that you replace
CUSTOMER's name
with the word "customer". LionEV is very protective
of their
customer's
privacy, even when there is a rare issue.

[email protected]









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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

What a load of BS. You know and we know they are stalling and keeping 
the money. What a sucker if you buy that load of .............


> S Collins wrote:
> 
> > I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
> > it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Interesting... whenever I have imported vehicles that I bought out of
state to Colorado, I have had to pay sales tax... it's pretty
standard. It's also common for people to try to buy vehicles in
nearby states with lower sales tax, instead of their home state, to
avoid the sales tax..... and the DMV's are specifically looking out to
prevent this. And... the DMV writes the rules... I have NEVER had any
success trying to not play by their rules. You fill out the forms
they say too... or you don't get your title... fact of life...

Z





> S Collins <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I inquired and got this interesting response. Unless
> > it is a misrepresentation, it doesn't sound like Lion
> > EV did such a poor job. They ask at the end for the
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > Interesting... whenever I have imported vehicles that I bought out of
> > state to Colorado, I have had to pay sales tax... it's pretty
> > standard. It's also common for people to try to buy vehicles in
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Few people would be so accomodating. Why don't you just take him to court already?

----- Original Message ----
Not so, see above. LionEV is perhaps forgetful. I will post 
documents.



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

For those interested, I have just added to:
http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.txt

I am not interested in hearing your criticism. I am interested in 
hearing specific suggestions for low cost (time and $) remedies. 
Yes, I made a very serious mistake in dealing with LionEV; I accept 
responsibility for that mistake. I post the above for your 
information. If you remain confused about the facts of the 
situation, please say so and I will attempt to clarify. 

-- 
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 33 days 5 hours 38 minutes

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Willie McKemie skrev:
> For those interested, I have just added to:
> http://austinfarm.org/homegrown/downloads/lionev.tx

I take it you don't have possession of the car either?
could you get it? maybe sell it back to the dealer at whatever the loss 
would be. if it cost 13k$ and hasn't run I doubt it has dropped to 6k$

get rid of the car as damage control and move on. if they really are con 
artists which it would appear they are in some fashion or other you 
should probably drop any ideas of the conversion being completed by 
them. minimize and cut losses.
get firm and get on the phone with them and see how you can round this 
case off.

and please, everyone on the list and everyone you know, learn from this 
and don't shell out big money to people without any track record. even 
if they doop someone like ampmobile to join them which they apparently did.
even companies with prior work, check their attitude in previous work.

Dan

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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

If he has anything sort of documentation to vouch for what he ordered, he has legal recourse and should pursue it. This is a business transaction between two american parties, not a Thundersky deal.

----- Original Message ----
get rid of the car as damage control and move on.


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Has anyone had any experience with 

http://www.splendidbattery.com

They have been advertising LIPo at ~$0.54 / watt (or appx $1080 per 2KW) with some available BMS solutions 

3.7V @ 100A


??

Peter



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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

There's the problem, anyone would know, it would be a
breeze to take any company to court if there truely
was wrong doing....... This person knows this,
doesn't have a leg to stand on, is mad about how
things didn't go his way, and just wants to whine on
the list....bad mouthing. 

I can't wait to sit in one of the LionEV conversions,
test drive it, and post photos/video of event. 

Sorry guys, I did get up, wash the dishes, even feed
the dog, but still came back and had to hit
send......lol





> --- Glenn Saunders <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> > If he has anything sort of documentation to vouch
> > for what he ordered, he has legal recourse and
> ...


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

I know, it's old news now; but just a reminder that, when you post on the 
EVDL, you're standing up in the public square and shouting. 

This is not just a bunch of friends; the EVDL is archived in several places 
on the web. Once you've posted something, you can't retract it. It's part 
of the permanent public record, forever associated with your name, thanks to 
the modern magic of search engines. 

Posts detailing experiences with EV businesses are valuable. We need them! 
They help others make purchasing decisions that, in many cases, involve 
substantial sums. I think the entire list benefits from reading them. 
Please, post these experiences - good and bad. 

However, make sure that you always state only supportable facts, and present 
them in a neutral, non-judgemental manner. 

Avoid posting opinions or value judgements. Don't accuse. Don't attempt to 
extrapolate from your own experience. Tell us what happened to you, then 
leave it to the reader to draw his own conclusions. 

This is not to suggest anything about any message that's been posted in this 
particular case. It's just a few general guidelines for discussing EV 
related businesses on the EVDL. Perhaps you could think of this as Ebay 
feedback without the points, and with more than 80 characters. (ASCII 
characters, I mean. ;-) 

http://pages.ebay.com/help/feedback/feedback.html

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/


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## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> M. Barkley wrote:
> > There's the problem, anyone would know, it would be a
> > breeze to take any company to court if there truely
> > was wrong doing....... This person knows this,
> ...


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