# MGB GT conversion - never done anything like this before



## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Everyone, 
My name is Andrew and I'm a 19 year old Medical Student in the UK. I recently bought an MGB GT which I'm really happy with. It looks great, gos great and sounds even better. I've finally got a car that makes me smile when I leave it in a car park - and smile a lot more when I go back to it. The only thing that i really can't get out of my head, is the amount of rubbish coming out of the exhaust. 
I've thought about an EV conversion for a long while now, but I've finally made up my mind that, that is what I want to do. Whether I'll sell my MGB for another one in in worse running order (to make some money and feel less quilty about destroying a perfectly good enigine) I haven't decided. However I really would like to get an idea of the conversion cost before I do anything drastic. I've had a look at the very useful pages on this site about starting an EV project - and here's what I've come up with.

So here's what I think I'll need:
23 Thunder Sky - LiFeYPO4 - TS-LFP100AHAat $110 (£70 here in England) - £1610. 
1 Netgain Warp 9 motor - $1700 (£1075)
Zilla Z1K-LV Low Voltage 1000 Amps (72-156V nominal) - $1975 (£1250)
£500 for a charger
and probably an extra £500 for connectors and other bits

Which would give me a grand total of about £5000 or roughly $8000.
I then plan to by an extra 22 batteries if and when I can afford them (if I need them) - to give some extra power and hopefully some more range. So that would be from 72volts to 144volts. 

Like I say, this is the first time that I have ever done anything like this and I don't know anyone nearby who has either. I'd really like to make the car feel relatively lively to drive (about what it is at the moment) 

So my questions are this: 
Does this seem Like a reasonable set up? 
Is the MG a good idea to use? 
are all of the parts compatible with each other (I think they are but I'm not sure)? 
Is there a cheaper way to get the same result? 
what performance and range do you think I could realistically expect with the 23 and then 45 batteries? 
and finally - What else would I need that might be expensive?

Lastly I would like to apologise for asking so many questions and thank you very much in advance for taking the time to read this through.

Andrew


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Hi and welcome.

I am looking forward to seeing this one. I love MGBs and have had a couple in my time, one restored and one set for road racing.

Having bought my MR2 and got a head ache from the wiring I am begining to wish I chose an MGB instead, four fuses instead of four fuse boxes and umpteen black boxes all over the car.

Where are you getting your TS batteries from for £70?


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Woodsmith,
i followed the link from the help pages on this forum to www.evcomponents.com That price is without shipping and import charges. How much do you think It would cost to import this many batteries?

Andrew.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

ATB said:


> Hi Woodsmith,
> i followed the link from the help pages on this forum to www.evcomponents.com That price is without shipping and import charges. How much do you think It would cost to import this many batteries?
> 
> Andrew.


I don't know, I haven't got that far on my project yet. I figured to leave that til as late as possible so that technology improves and prices reduce.
I was just hoping that you were able to get them at £70 a pop in the uk.

Where in the UK are you?
It may be worth contacting Jozzer on this forum as he is based near Brighton and is converting motorbikes with Agni motors. He will, no doubt, have contacts for batteries. I will be speaking with him about it nearer the time.
Jozzer and SimonRafferty here are both in the south east and very knowledgeable and helpful


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm actually at Keele University at the moment. - so not too far from yourself I gather. I'd be interested to see a completed EV as I've never actually seen one in real life before. Do you think that this set up seems reasonable?


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It all seems ok to me. Essentially all off the shelf stuff. You could do it the hard way and save some money but it will cost an awful lot more hours.

Have you thought about the adaptor plate to the MGB gearbox and a coupler? You could go clutchless or make an imitation crankshaft end and keep the flywheel and clutch.
You could get the University's engineering department to make the adaptor plate accurately on the CNC machine.
I would be tempted to keep the clutch as I never remembered MGB's having an easy change if the clutch was even a little out of adjustment.
How old is your car? The ealier gearboxes didn't have syncromesh on all the gears. Does it have overdrive? Wire wheels?
Is the car in good condition? The sills rotted inside very easily and cheap cover sills hid a lot of rot.

You should be able to fit the motor using a frame or brackets to reuse the original engine mounting rubbers.
ther eis plenty of space undernad over the boot floor for batteries if they were laid on the side edges, also in the engine bay and the radiator space too. If you used a small accessories 12v battery then there is a large space under the back seat for another handfull of cells.

Something I did to my MGB's was to upgrade to telescopic dampers, V8 suspension bushes and brakes, thicker anti roll bars, 2" lowered and uprated springs and then negative camber front wishbones. Makes a massive difference to the handling. We used to race London Bridge to Brighton seafront in less then 45 minutes.

It maybe worth going on the Battery Vehicle Society's forum as they are UK based and have a lot of EV's around the country.


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

It's a 1969 with synchro on all but first gear and overdrive on 3rd and 4th. There's no rust to speak of and everything is in good working order. It stil runs of leaded petrol and I was thinking of having the cylinder head converted. But looking at the cost I thought that I might as well start saving to go all the way and do a conversion. The car certainly has many empty spaces for the batteries I just need the time and money now. I did think that it might be worth getting the cylinder head replacement and really making the car special and then sell it on at a profit to be able to by a different B with a rubbish engine but good body and still have the money for a conversion.

I definately want to keep the clutch and all four gears - but as the rear seat is impractical even for my shortest friends I don't mind using all that space for batteries if needs be. 

I haven't really got as far as thinking about the finer details (i.e. adapter plate) yet. I am still at the stage of "can I afford it?" and "when will I be able to do it?" 

I would need at least a 55 mile range to get me to or from University (i'll be able to charge at both ends of the journey). But it would be nice to go further.I suppose with a clutch it might be easy to free wheel a lot of the way.


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

and yes, it does have wire wheels - which look great - too good to remove, even if they do add a bit of drag


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

I looked at a random import duty calculator and costed up 45 cells.

The shipping calculator suggested about £1000 shipping and about £780 duty and VAT based on £4950 for the pack.

I didn't include anything for the weight or size of the packing crate in the shipping estimate.

So it comes to around £7000 for 45 100ah cells.


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

It sounds like a really nice car, do post photos when you can.

If you have a look at my build thread in my sig you should be able to sift through all the chatter and see how I made my adaptor plate. The lump of 19mm thick aluminium cost about £65. Have a look at my tractor project thread too to see how I have been machining with very little equipment and unused knowledge from my distant youth.

My build is based on getting a 70 mile range at 60-70mph for my round trip commute to college (I teach at Burnley College) where they haven't really embraced the idea that electric cars could be charged up and be useful.

The back seat area would hold a good number of batteries though I did once get 5 friends and myself in my BGT when I was at Middlesex Uni but that's because you can get a whole body in the passenger footwell and still have a little leg room.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi ATB
Sounds like a good plan!

You could try and get a fork lift motor - mine is about the same as a warp 11 and cost $100 NZ about forty quid

Not sure if 72V will be enough power, the old Austin Cambridge A55 (sports model) (AKA MGB) is a hefty old beast
You may need more volts


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi again,
Woodsmith - 
I must try the body in the footwell seating arrangement - I've only managed four people so far  Having seen your shipping and customs calculations I fear I may have to delay this project for some time yet. - thanks for going to the effort of doing that for me. 
Duncan -
The forklift motor sounds like a good idea- I always like to save money when I can (and over £1000 is quite a nice saving). I'm not entirely sure what I would be looking for though - as far as I understood a forklift motor is usually rated at about 48volts. is that correct? and if so is that a problem? would i be able to use 144volts of batteries with a forklift motor and get a similar result to using a netgain motor?
if you think that 72 volts might be too low then I suppose I had better buy all the batteries at once when I can.
Does anyone know where I might get some good batteries at a reasonable price to give me the 144 volts - either the same ones or alternatives.
Would I be able to use Lead acid and still get reasonable power and distance?


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## glaurung (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi Andrew
I can not give you advice on ev stuff, but having few old English steel on my yard i would strongly suggest that you convert your car.If you have used it and know it is in good condition you can only go worse if you change that to other car.Even if you make few pounds in trade you may get a lot that you did not ask for. As you know, repairing even basic components is expensive if done to whole car. With good, and familiar donor you know how it will turn out. I have had same car over and over again, some i loved, some i never felt like mine.
Chears, Harri


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

The fork lift motor is a good cost saver.

You are basically looking for the same thing as I am but you have the advantage of more space. A 72V motor would be a good start and you are a little closer to a forklift breakers then I am, there is one in Chesterfield.
Fork truck Breakers.
_Edit to add: You are a little closer but I think it is more difficult for you to get to as there are no direct routes._

You will be looking for something that is around 9"-11" diameter adn about 17"-20" long. If it has a motor brake on the tailshaft then better as you can use that to drive any ancilleries, the alternator for instance to keep the 12v accessories batteries charged, cheaper as a stopgap then a DC-DC converter.
The main drive shaft of the motor could do with being a male shaft, some motors have a female shaft as used on pumps and that just makes it more difficult to use.
The drive shaft can be splined or plain with a keyway. You will probably use a taperlock coupling to connect the motor to the flywheel.

The motor can take much more then the rated voltage with brush advance but never power a motor with more then 12v with out a load. Series motors have a runaway rpm with increasing voltage and so there is a very real risk of motors spining so fast that it fails catastrophically.

Lead acid batteries will be both heavy, bulky and give you very limited range. With LiFePO4 you can use about 80% of the capacity whereas with lead acid you are limited to about 50% at best before you start damaging the cells.

It may be worth starting with a lower voltage to get road legal and then get more batteries later but once you are road legal you will want to start using it.

Have you given thought to the legalities of the conversion?
It is a potential minefield with the Vehicle Licencing Office wanting the car inspected and DVLA only wanting it licenced and refusing to inspect. That inturn results in the Vehicle Licencing Office refusing to issue a tax disc and DVLA refusing to allow the car to be road legal without it. Some offices are fine and will just look at the car and give you a free tax disc and change the fuel designation but others are misinformed jobs worths who think it will need an IVA.

It ought to be an easy case of 'change of fuel' but DVLA and the Vehicle Licencing Office don't talk to each other.

One way of easing the process is to not make any changes to the car body shell, no additional holes or welded on brackets. Use all the original holes and mounting points. This should evem matter on your car as it is so old but the Vehicle Licencing Office is daft.


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ATB said:


> I definately want to keep the clutch and all four gears - but as the rear seat is impractical even for my shortest friends I don't mind using all that space for batteries if needs be.


Unless you plan on racing.... you could have a better balance of money spent, with very GOOD performance if you go a little more modest on the motor/controller. A zilla controller will suck the life right out of 100ah cells. You'd have more $$ available for batteries if you go with a 8" motor, and a curtis 1221 or 1231 or similar 400-500 amp max controller, which is all you should use with 100ah-120ah cells anyway if you want to stick to 3C for max life cycles. Consider 120v worth (38x) of 120ah cells, which allows the less expensive 8", 1221, and lots of other savings for charger and 'bits'.

For range estimate, just take your total pack energy, and figure a conservative 300watts/mile... you don't wanna drain down too far on a regular basis. So 120v x 120ah = 14.4 kWhr / .3 = 48 miles (or more)

You won't have room or suspension for 120v worth of lead, and would max range around 40 miles, and cost/cycle over 10 years service is higher anyway, so save up and go Li! I am switching myself. On that topic I would NOT go with half voltage and add batteries; you don't want a mixed bag of batteries, and all components are happiest when matched, not to even mention how much more fun it is to drive at 120v than 96 or less.

go with the clutch/adaptor!. safety and much better shifting/accel when youo need it. Besides, then untrained drivers have an easier time. You don't need the clutch for 'freewheeling' in electric as there is no compression.... but it is nice to shift between gears normally.


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## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi ATB,
look under ELECTRIC MOTORS in this form 
*Using a forklift motor and choosing a good one* is at the start of this section
read the first ten pages or so at least


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## Woodsmith (Jun 5, 2008)

Duncan said:


> Hi ATB,
> look under ELECTRIC MOTORS in this form
> *Using a forklift motor and choosing a good one* is at the start of this section
> read the first ten pages or so at least


This thread.


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## efan (Aug 27, 2009)

hey...I dont know if you have heard of, and how useful they'll be for you but you can consider (http://www.tyc-track.co.uk/batteries.html) for purchasing batteries in the UK...


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

man, I just don't feel like taking a chance on a used motor makes sense; it might or might not be good for your voltage, might have bad/worn internals, need advancing, etc... This is one thing (and the controller is the other) where buying something new with a warranty is worth the extra money considering all the time you are investing.


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## tinrobot (Aug 26, 2009)

ATB said:


> Would I be able to use Lead acid and still get reasonable power and distance?


Hey there - I have a 74 MGB conversion. It's a great car. 

Lead acid (which I still have) can get you some distance, maybe around 40 miles or so with the right batteries. Also, lead batteries add a lot of weight, so plan on beefing up the suspension as well as the brakes. The weight can also affect acceleration. My car is at 96v and it takes a little while to get to freeway speeds.

If you can afford lithium, it would be ideal because of the better performance and longer range. Once my current pack wears out, I'm planning to upgrade.


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

It's a shame that Tyc-track don't show any of the batteries they sell, or more importantly the price. I must admit I agree on the "being slightly nervous about using a used motor" point, but if I'll read about them a bit before i discount them £1000 is a lot of money.

Tinrobot - Do you have any pictures of your MGB ? I'd be really interested to see a fully converted GT. I've only seen people convert Roadsters before.

Thanks for all your help everyone. I think I'm beginning to get some ideas of price now - which means that this is beginning to look more like a summer 2011 project unfortunately. 

This is something that I definately want to do and it's more a case of when and not if.


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## tinrobot (Aug 26, 2009)

ATB said:


> Tinrobot - Do you have any pictures of your MGB ? I'd be really interested to see a fully converted GT. I've only seen people convert Roadsters before.


Actually, mine is a roadster, sorry. There's pictures of my car in the garage on this site.

A while back, I bookmarked someone who converted a GT using an industrial AC motor. Not sure if it will help, but here's the link: http://kermitthecar.blogspot.com/

Cheers.


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks Tinrobot, it looks like this guy is doing it the hard way making everything himself.  I think as I won't have the time to do everything like that I'll just stick to the tried and tested controllers and chargers. But a 340volt system sounds like fun  interesting that he said he maxed out at about 35 mph. - another reason that I think going with tried and tested equipment will be a better option.


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## tinrobot (Aug 26, 2009)

ATB said:


> Thanks Tinrobot, it looks like this guy is doing it the hard way making everything himself.  I think as I won't have the time to do everything like that I'll just stick to the tried and tested controllers and chargers. But a 340volt system sounds like fun  interesting that he said he maxed out at about 35 mph. - another reason that I think going with tried and tested equipment will be a better option.


I'd suggest tried & tested equipment as well.


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi again. I've been having a think about when to do this conversion. I spent several hours today fiddling about with and cleaning up the carburretors in the "B" today to find that she doesn't run any better - I've been having a few problems with it lately. It's drinking oil like it thinks it's petrol and it never wants to keep going when it's idle - i'm constantly feathering the throttle and Wasting petrol just to keep it going. I figure that to get the car the way I want it is gonna cost at least another £600.
Thinking about this in all seriousness, that money could easily buy me a forklift motor, a mount for it, new brakes, and go half way to buying me a decent controller. If I were to start buying parts for the conversion now and try and live with the ICE's annoying little habbits and drive less, rather than getting it overhalled - I might be able to afford the conversion sooner. After all there's no point overhalling an engine that will only be used for a year before being pulled out.
Hmmm. 
If I were to buy 10 x 12v 105ah lead acid batteries - instead of LiFePO4batteries , would I get to University or would I stop half way? and could I manage with the sluggish performance till I can afford some better batteries? I wonder... as long as I can build something better than a G-whiz then I'll be happy 
I'll let you guys know when I've decided.


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## ATB (Feb 17, 2010)

Would these be ok to use in a 120volt system for a year or two while I save up for lithiums?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUCAS-ULTRA-D...BIEW%2BFICS%2BUFI%2BDDSIC&otn=30&po=LVI&ps=54


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## dtbaker (Jan 5, 2008)

ATB said:


> Would these be ok to use in a 120volt system for a year or two while I save up for lithiums?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUCAS-ULTRA-D...BIEW%2BFICS%2BUFI%2BDDSIC&otn=30&po=LVI&ps=54


the specs don't say if the 100ah are at a 20-hr discharge rate.... what you need to figure realistic range in EV use is the 1-hour ah rating... If you are driving at normal rural road speeds, you will pull around 100 amps, which would empty your pack in a hour IF that 100ah figure is at 100amps.

If it turns out that 100ah rating is at a 20hr rate, then your 1hr capacity is going to be a LOT less.... like maybe 50ah or 60ah, so you may not get the range you need.

The other factor is that sealed lead-acid generally do not give as much range and cost more than similar flooded lead. They have to be charged slower.... but do give zippier performance as they usually have lower internal resistance with less voltage sag at high load.


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## jackbauer (Jan 12, 2008)

the one area i would advise you not to compromise is on the batteries. My conversion cost about 2000 euros. I got a very good deal on odyssey agm batteries so total cost for the car is about 3500. I built my own controller , charger and adapter plate. So yes you can do a budget conversion that performs well.

i looked at those ebay batteries at the start of my project. While they may be "deep cycle" in this case that will mean a slow discharge of say 5 or 10 amps running a tv and a few lights in a caravan. An ev can and will discharge its pack at several hundreds of amps. Those batteries would not stand that abuse for long. In my opinion wet lead acid is a bad idea for any ev save mabey a forklift. An agm or gel is a much better proposition.

As you have a rear wheel drive car your choice of motor is much broader then front wheel drive due to not having a driveshaft running along the motor dictating its maximum diameter. This is one of the reasons I chose a bmw for my project. I ended up with a 11" compound wound forklift motor that drove the car up a 30 degree incline in 5th gear with two knackered batts!

Have a look at my website and feel free to ask any questions. It'd be great if we all had warp motors and zilla controllers but until they become sensibly priced we budget converters have to look elsewhere!


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