# [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mike, to answer this question, you said," 2. I know that the motor will
run cooler and more efficiently at higher RPMs than lower. I also know that
I should stay below 6K RPM. Is it
OK to hold 5K RPM for extended periods? I have a clutchless transmission
set up, so I have my choice of running 55 MPH at about 5000 RPM in 3rd gear,
or shifting to 4th and running around 4000+. About one-half of my commute
has a 55 MPH speed limit (with some congestion) so this is an important
question for the life of my equipment. I could be holding 55 MPH for about
15 minutes of a 40 minute commute, each way."

Without resorting to a thorough analysis the easy answer is use either 3rd
or 4th gear, whichever gives a lower battery current, (Asuming lower current
=3D higher efficiency at same speed.)

As for the charger question I am a "Bad Boy" Brat, so someone else will need
to talk that out, Why aren't you using a 20 amp circuit? If your charging in
the garage, the clothes washer has a 20 Amp. dedicated line in most modern
homes. Just don't do laundry while charging. And any extension cord needs to
be #12 AWG (Like heaver duty contractor cords)
Regards,
Dennis Lee Miles (Director) E.V.T.I. inc.
www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM (Adviser) EVTI-EVA Education Chapter
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:55 AM, Mike Nickerson <[email protected]>w=
rote:

> Hello everybody,
>
>
>
> You may recall that I posted a couple weeks ago with a question on my
> newly-acquired Honda del Sol conversion with 144v lithium and ADC 9" moto=
r.
> The motor is all fixed up and timed correctly for its rotation direction.
> If anyone is interested, I have a couple of pictures showing what can
> happen
> to the brushes and brush holder when the timing isn't correct for the
> direction of rotation. It's not a pretty sight. Thanks a lot to the gro=
up
> for the help on that issue.
>
>
>
> Anyway, it's now all licensed and I've taken it out for a couple of drive=
s.
> I now have a couple more questions:
>
>
>
> 1. I have an Elcon 2000+ charger on board. It seems to work well,
> but it is drawing 15A + a little bit on my 15A circuit. I'm not blowing
> breakers or anything, but the electrical engineer in me would like to be a
> little nicer to my house wiring. The outlet voltage is dropping from 118V
> to about 112V under load (measured at the wall with a Kill-A-Watt meter),
> so
> I know I'm running the circuit hard. Is there some way to back the Elcon
> off a little bit so it only draws, maybe, 13 or 14A instead of 15.25? It
> also makes the Kill-A-Watt beep because the 15A limit is being exceeded.
> That's starting to annoy me!
>
>
>
> 2. I know that the motor will run cooler and more efficiently at
> higher RPMs than lower. I also know that I should stay below 6K RPM. Is
> it
> OK to hold 5K RPM for extended periods? I have a clutchless transmission
> set up, so I have my choice of running 55 MPH at about 5000 RPM in 3rd
> gear,
> or shifting to 4th and running around 4000+. About one-half of my commute
> has a 55 MPH speed limit (with some congestion) so this is an important
> question for the life of my equipment. I could be holding 55 MPH for abo=
ut
> 15 minutes of a 40 minute commute, each way.
>
>
>
> With a little luck, I'm prepared to start adding 46 EV miles/day to my li=
fe
> later this week!
>
>
>
> Thanks, in advance for any advice or comments.
>
>
>
> I'll be keeping records on energy consumption as I learn to drive the EV
> and
> get the car tuned up. I'm hoping I can provide useful information on the
> possible range of energy usage and what can be expected from certain
> improvements. So far, it looks like the car is starting out at about 275
> Wh/mile. I'm hoping to eventually get it below 220 Wh/mile. (This is
> measured at the wall, so it's counting charger losses also.)
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
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tachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =


It=92s estimated that the existing U.S. electrical grid has sufficient
capacity to fully fuel three-quarters of the nation=92s 217 million passeng=
er
vehicles.
-------------- next part --------------
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> 
> > 1. I have an Elcon 2000+ charger on board. It seems to work well,
> > but it is drawing 15A + a little bit on my 15A circuit. I'm not blowing
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hello Mike,

On item 1.

The maximum voltage drop for power is 3% or 3.54 vd from 118 volts which 
would be 114.19 volts.

If you have a 15 amp breaker on this line, it may that this circuit is on a 
No. 14 AWG wire design for a maximum of 15 amps. It is preferred to load up 
this circuit to only 80 percent or 12 amps maximum. A No. 12 AWG wire is 
design for 20 amps and at 80 percent, it is 16 amps.

Another problem could be that the circuit is going through other receptacles 
and many wire connections before it gets to the charger. I have seen a 
coffee pot drop to 90 volts on a No. 12 AWG solid copper sire that was on a 
75 foot circuit that went through 5 other devices. Sometimes just 
tightening up all the wire connections in each junction may increase the 
voltage.

Any time a receptacle circuit goes over 42 feet, it is preferred to use the 
next size wire. Use a No. 12 wire on a 15 amp circuit or a No. 10 wire on a 
20 amp circuit if its over 42 feet.

The problem could also be that there is too much load on the transformer 
that is design for your house or group of houses. To test this, turn off 
all the loads in your house and see what the incoming voltage is. It is 
preferred to have this voltage at a minimum of 120 volts per house and about 
122 volts at the transformer unloaded.

On the house I bought some time ago, I notice the no load input voltage was 
lower then 3%, so I had the power company re-tap the transformer up 2.5 
volts. Normally this type of transformers have 5 taps of 2.5 volts 
increments that can be adjusted by a turn of a tapping switch.

Roland






----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Nickerson" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:55 PM
Subject: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions


> Hello everybody,
>
>
>
> You may recall that I posted a couple weeks ago with a question on my
> newly-acquired Honda del Sol conversion with 144v lithium and ADC 9" 
> motor.
> The motor is all fixed up and timed correctly for its rotation direction.
> If anyone is interested, I have a couple of pictures showing what can 
> happen
> to the brushes and brush holder when the timing isn't correct for the
> direction of rotation. It's not a pretty sight. Thanks a lot to the 
> group
> for the help on that issue.
>
>
>
> Anyway, it's now all licensed and I've taken it out for a couple of 
> drives.
> I now have a couple more questions:
>
>
>
> 1. I have an Elcon 2000+ charger on board. It seems to work well,
> but it is drawing 15A + a little bit on my 15A circuit. I'm not blowing
> breakers or anything, but the electrical engineer in me would like to be a
> little nicer to my house wiring. The outlet voltage is dropping from 118V
> to about 112V under load (measured at the wall with a Kill-A-Watt meter), 
> so
> I know I'm running the circuit hard. Is there some way to back the Elcon
> off a little bit so it only draws, maybe, 13 or 14A instead of 15.25? It
> also makes the Kill-A-Watt beep because the 15A limit is being exceeded.
> That's starting to annoy me!
>
>
>
> 2. I know that the motor will run cooler and more efficiently at
> higher RPMs than lower. I also know that I should stay below 6K RPM. Is 
> it
> OK to hold 5K RPM for extended periods? I have a clutchless transmission
> set up, so I have my choice of running 55 MPH at about 5000 RPM in 3rd 
> gear,
> or shifting to 4th and running around 4000+. About one-half of my commute
> has a 55 MPH speed limit (with some congestion) so this is an important
> question for the life of my equipment. I could be holding 55 MPH for 
> about
> 15 minutes of a 40 minute commute, each way.
>
>
>
> With a little luck, I'm prepared to start adding 46 EV miles/day to my 
> life
> later this week!
>
>
>
> Thanks, in advance for any advice or comments.
>
>
>
> I'll be keeping records on energy consumption as I learn to drive the EV 
> and
> get the car tuned up. I'm hoping I can provide useful information on the
> possible range of energy usage and what can be expected from certain
> improvements. So far, it looks like the car is starting out at about 275
> Wh/mile. I'm hoping to eventually get it below 220 Wh/mile. (This is
> measured at the wall, so it's counting charger losses also.)
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: 
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20100809/11bbb171/attachment.html
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> 

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

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dS5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9ldgo=


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Mike,
On the Elcon charger, I had a very similar problem. Unfortunately I had to
send the charger back to Elcon to be reprogrammed, which turned it around
very quickly .
I expected it to only draw 12.5A using 120V, but it drew 21A on my dedicated
20A circuit and did trip the breaker a few times. It was programmed
incorrectly. It worked as expected using 240 though.





> Mike Nickerson <[email protected]>wrote:
> 
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Roger W wrote:
> > It isn't amps, it is watt hours. Every motor I have seen has an
> > "efficiency map" - or one can be created for that motor. There is
> > universally proven to be a "sweet spot" where the total motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Lee 

So obviously some compromise is needed between efficiency and cooling. for the ADC 9 you mentioned is there an optimum RPM that achieves this?

Peter Flipsen JR 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 11:21:57 
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions



> Roger W wrote:
> > It isn't amps, it is watt hours. Every motor I have seen has an
> > "efficiency map" - or one can be created for that motor. There is
> > universally proven to be a "sweet spot" where the total motor
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Lee Hart wrote:
> 
> > For a traction motor, I think it is much better to use an
> > external blower instead of the internal fan. You can run this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Hi Roland,

I think you nailed it with the wire size. I found another outlet in the
garage where the voltage only drops to 115V. I also checked my breaker box
and all the circuit breakers are 20A. However, all the outlets are 15A and
I would say, based on the voltage drops I'm seeing, the wire is probably
sized for 15A loads and not 20A. That worries me a little.

Since it doesn't sound like I can reduce the charger draw less than 15A,
I'll have to figure out what to do long term. I'm not thrilled with the
idea of re-wiring a branch circuit, but that may be the right answer
eventually. That might also change my mind about where I park the car to
charge. If I do it in my shop (instead of garage), I've got several more
circuit options and I would be much closer to the breaker box (it's in the
shop).

I've checked the outlets at work and they are 20A outlets, so I don't think
I'll have any problem there.

If I get a minute this weekend, I may open up an outlet and try to figure
out the wire gauge used in the garage. With 20A breakers, one would assume
the wire is sized such that it wouldn't be the weak link. However, my
voltage drops at 15A load tend to indicate otherwise.

Thanks everyone for all the helpful responses. I'm driving my new EV to
work for the first time tomorrow (23 miles each way!)

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:22 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions

Hello Mike,

On item 1.

The maximum voltage drop for power is 3% or 3.54 vd from 118 volts which
would be 114.19 volts.

If you have a 15 amp breaker on this line, it may that this circuit is on a
No. 14 AWG wire design for a maximum of 15 amps. It is preferred to load up
this circuit to only 80 percent or 12 amps maximum. A No. 12 AWG wire is
design for 20 amps and at 80 percent, it is 16 amps.

Another problem could be that the circuit is going through other receptacles
and many wire connections before it gets to the charger. I have seen a
coffee pot drop to 90 volts on a No. 12 AWG solid copper sire that was on a
75 foot circuit that went through 5 other devices. Sometimes just
tightening up all the wire connections in each junction may increase the
voltage.

Any time a receptacle circuit goes over 42 feet, it is preferred to use the
next size wire. Use a No. 12 wire on a 15 amp circuit or a No. 10 wire on a
20 amp circuit if its over 42 feet.

The problem could also be that there is too much load on the transformer
that is design for your house or group of houses. To test this, turn off
all the loads in your house and see what the incoming voltage is. It is
preferred to have this voltage at a minimum of 120 volts per house and about
122 volts at the transformer unloaded.

On the house I bought some time ago, I notice the no load input voltage was
lower then 3%, so I had the power company re-tap the transformer up 2.5
volts. Normally this type of transformers have 5 taps of 2.5 volts
increments that can be adjusted by a turn of a tapping switch.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Nickerson" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 9:55 PM
Subject: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions


> Hello everybody,
>
>
>
> You may recall that I posted a couple weeks ago with a question on my
> newly-acquired Honda del Sol conversion with 144v lithium and ADC 9" 
> motor.
> The motor is all fixed up and timed correctly for its rotation direction.
> If anyone is interested, I have a couple of pictures showing what can 
> happen
> to the brushes and brush holder when the timing isn't correct for the
> direction of rotation. It's not a pretty sight. Thanks a lot to the 
> group
> for the help on that issue.
>
>
>
> Anyway, it's now all licensed and I've taken it out for a couple of 
> drives.
> I now have a couple more questions:
>
>
>
> 1. I have an Elcon 2000+ charger on board. It seems to work well,
> but it is drawing 15A + a little bit on my 15A circuit. I'm not blowing
> breakers or anything, but the electrical engineer in me would like to be a
> little nicer to my house wiring. The outlet voltage is dropping from 118V
> to about 112V under load (measured at the wall with a Kill-A-Watt meter), 
> so
> I know I'm running the circuit hard. Is there some way to back the Elcon
> off a little bit so it only draws, maybe, 13 or 14A instead of 15.25? It
> also makes the Kill-A-Watt beep because the 15A limit is being exceeded.
> That's starting to annoy me!
>
>
>
> 2. I know that the motor will run cooler and more efficiently at
> higher RPMs than lower. I also know that I should stay below 6K RPM. Is 
> it
> OK to hold 5K RPM for extended periods? I have a clutchless transmission
> set up, so I have my choice of running 55 MPH at about 5000 RPM in 3rd 
> gear,
> or shifting to 4th and running around 4000+. About one-half of my commute
> has a 55 MPH speed limit (with some congestion) so this is an important
> question for the life of my equipment. I could be holding 55 MPH for 
> about
> 15 minutes of a 40 minute commute, each way.
>
>
>
> With a little luck, I'm prepared to start adding 46 EV miles/day to my 
> life
> later this week!
>
>
>
> Thanks, in advance for any advice or comments.
>
>
>
> I'll be keeping records on energy consumption as I learn to drive the EV 
> and
> get the car tuned up. I'm hoping I can provide useful information on the
> possible range of energy usage and what can be expected from certain
> improvements. So far, it looks like the car is starting out at about 275
> Wh/mile. I'm hoping to eventually get it below 220 Wh/mile. (This is
> measured at the wall, so it's counting charger losses also.)
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote: I also checked my breaker box
> > and all the circuit breakers are 20A. However, all the outlets are 15A a=
> nd
> > I would say, based on the voltage drops I'm seeing, the wire is probably
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

"I think you nailed it with the wire size. I found another outlet in the
garage where the voltage only drops to 115V."

Also check wiring junctions. I had an irrigation pump that would overheat
and stop running after about a half hour due to low voltage. Traced it to a
junction box in the garage where the connection for one phase of the 240V
had such a poor connection the plastic on the wire nut had been melted and
burned black. It was #10AWG and the stiff wires only contacted at their tips
inside the wire nut. I twisted them together with a pliers, and screwed on
another wire nut. Voltage at at the pump went from 98V under load to 118V.
-- 
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/New-EV-Driver-Questions-tp2319317p2321194.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >> > For a traction motor, I think it is much better to use an
> >> > external blower instead of the internal fan. You can run this
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't the losses mostly be if there was substantial
> > restriction? The external blower would only tned to increase
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> > Umm, Current intrinsically low at high RPM?? I think you are
> > smoking something Lee...
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

Just a safety note. If you run 13 to 15A continuous through Kill-a-Watt 
meter it will probably melt and may even catch fire. Be sure to check it 
out.

Al

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:04 PM, John G. Lussmyer


> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Umm, Current intrinsically low at high RPM?? I think you are smoking
> > something Lee...
> > My truck sucks 250A from the batteries at 5000 RPM when cruising down
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

This was handled in ICE engines for years in a variety of ways.

Flex fans and fan clutches

There is no radiator so a fan clutch would be an interesting design challenge, but a flex fan would be interesting. It may require
adding length to the motor.

Maybe a thermal clutch on a 3:1 reduction would be a nice touch. fan runs at shaft speed when warm and 1/3 shaft speed when cool.

Recently I was thinking about ways to redesign the DC motor, trying to think outside the box a bit and I came up with a question or two.

1) What are the laminations in the rotor made from?
If I don't miss my guess the polarity of a rotor tooth changes 4 times per rpm, every time it passes under a brush.
That is 2cycles/rpm. at 4000rpm that is 120 cycles.
Could it be that better laminations in the rotor would reduce heating and increase effiency?

2) By way of comparison, In an AC induction motor using a VFD, what is the max rotor slip the rotor sees?
lets say 25% at acceleration and 5% at cruise?
At 400 hz that is 100hz for short stints but we never use 400hz from a stop.
at cruise it is more like 20hz. Could we save money on rotor laminations in an ACIM.

Or do I need more coffee?


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> On 12 Aug 2010 at 1:49, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > You can not read a wire size label on the unsheathed wires, either in the
> > breaker panel or in an outlet box to read a printed wire size you will have to
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

As a Home Inspector I will second everything Dave said...

If you put in something, uhm, screwy, the inspector WILL find it, and it
will be much more expensive to fix it when you are in the process of selling
your home that to do it correctly the first time. Not to mention if you do
something screwy, it makes the inspector "curious" as to what ELSE you
cheated on, and they look even harder...

Bob Sisson 
Inspections by Bob 
ASHI Member # 212016 
MD Home inspectors License #29666
MAC-ASHI Chapter President 2010-2011
National HESP Certificate #1
[email protected] 
www.inspectionsbybob.com 
(301) 208-8289 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions



> On 12 Aug 2010 at 1:49, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > You can not read a wire size label on the unsheathed wires, either in the
> > breaker panel or in an outlet box to read a printed wire size you will
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> EVDL Administrator wrote:
> > On 12 Aug 2010 at 1:49, Dennis Miles wrote:
> >
> >> You can not read a wire size label on the unsheathed wires, either in the
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

It has been pointed out to me off-list that the Elcon PFC chargers have a
very wide input voltage range. They can take from 90V to 265VAC input
without adjustment.

When I had the house built, I had the extra space in the breaker box
reserved for two 220V circuits that have been covered with a metal plate
while I figure out what I might use them for (welder, big woodworking
equipment, ceramic kiln, etc). I think the easiest way out of this would be
to finally install the appropriate outlet in one of them and use that to
charge the car. I would then be using a very comfortable 9-10A on the 220V
outlet.

In doing so, it feels like I should find some really screwy plug for the
charger on the car and then make two pigtails for it. One from screwy plug
to standard 110V (20A) circuit for charging at work. One from screwy plug
to the 220V outlet in my garage for charging at home.

If I leave the standard 110V 15A plug on my charger, I have to make a 220V
to 110V extension cord or pigtail. This just feels like a VERY dangerous
thing to have around. If anybody plugs 110V-only equipment into that cord,
the device is toast.

Any suggestions on what to use for the "screwy plug" on the charger?

Is there a better way to deal with a device that can plug into both 110V and
220V? I'm sure this is a problem that others have solved.

Thanks, again, for all the help and comments.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sisson
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:30 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions

As a Home Inspector I will second everything Dave said...

If you put in something, uhm, screwy, the inspector WILL find it, and it
will be much more expensive to fix it when you are in the process of selling
your home that to do it correctly the first time. Not to mention if you do
something screwy, it makes the inspector "curious" as to what ELSE you
cheated on, and they look even harder...

Bob Sisson
Inspections by Bob
ASHI Member # 212016
MD Home inspectors License #29666
MAC-ASHI Chapter President 2010-2011
National HESP Certificate #1
[email protected]
www.inspectionsbybob.com
(301) 208-8289 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 1:24 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New EV Driver Questions



> On 12 Aug 2010 at 1:49, Dennis Miles wrote:
> 
> > You can not read a wire size label on the unsheathed wires, either in
> > the breaker panel or in an outlet box to read a printed wire size you
> ...


----------



## EVDL List (Jul 27, 2007)

> Mike Nickerson wrote:
> 
> > Any suggestions on what to use for the "screwy plug" on the charger?
> 
> ...


----------

