# A123 cells on ebay



## Drew (Jul 26, 2009)

The green cells have the same contact email address as the ones you've identified as fake.

You could buy a small batch to test them, if they perform adequately then it wouldn't matter too much if they were a fake would it?


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## notnull (Jul 30, 2008)

Try sending a PM to a member on this forum.

wakinyantanka

We was selling A123's for aobut $7 per cell assembled into packs.

Steve


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

how do we know they are fakes?I asked one of the sellers if they are copies and he insisted they were not and said A123 has a factory in china. A123 website has a page about a A123 china ceo so it's not entirely impossible and A123 cells are not exactly easy to fake. a simple discharge test would distinguish them from almost any other manufacturer in the world. maybe 1 or 2 chinese manufacturers that can make cells that come close and I somewhat doubt that they would manufacture cells with a competitors brand on.so who'll buy 4 cells and use them to start an ICE car?


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

Did you ask A123? If they say they're real, then I'd believe it. Otherwise I would not.
________
Web Shows


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> how do we know they are fakes?I asked one of the sellers if they are copies and he insisted they were not and said A123 has a factory in china. A123 website has a page about a A123 china ceo so it's not entirely impossible and A123 cells are not exactly easy to fake. a simple discharge test would distinguish them from almost any other manufacturer in the world. maybe 1 or 2 chinese manufacturers that can make cells that come close and I somewhat doubt that they would manufacture cells with a competitors brand on.so who'll buy 4 cells and use them to start an ICE car?


A friend of mine had bought this cells from china. He says that the internal resistance is 3 times higher than claimed. That means 3X less discharge current. 

Maybe the seller got a positive feedback because no one really needs the 60C max discharge of the A123.

I need as much current as I can get so this Chinese cells are no option for me


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

Crodriver, does your friend understand that the stated internal resistance of batteries are generally at 1kHz pulses and not DC resistance? and that 3x at DC might fit well?has he tested a confirmed A123 cell as reference?when you make claims like 'the resistance is 3 times higher than claimed' you better be damned sure you're right


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

He's building electric bikes for living. I guess that he knows what he's talking about.

I will ask him when I come back from vacation and probably order some of those anyway


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

does he have a website for those motorcycles?


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> does he have a website for those motorcycles?


I'm driving in my car and on-line via my cell phone so I'm unable to copy the address of his web.

Try google greyborg. It's a bicycle, not a motorcycle


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

when are you back from vacation?


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## Matthijs (Jun 19, 2009)

Dan Frederiksen said:


> when are you back from vacation?


Try this thread on the endless-sphere forum: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10706


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

I talked to him and he said he did a short circuit test with the chinese cell and the same with sample 
cells direct from A123 and they did 39C vs 64C.it's possible they are fake but it's also possible the 
chinese made A123 are just different, early cells or even that some in circulation are fake. I've found a 
bulk seller "OSN power tech" and they are quite insistant that the cells are genuine from an 
A123 factory in china. I've pushed quite a few sellers and they all insist. 

they quoted as follows:
We have all new and original A123 cell : 2300mAh or above , 25C dishcharge current or above.
Price is very low:
MOQ 100PCS: US$5pc
1000PCS above: US$4.5/PC
3000PCS above: US$4.3/PC
5000PCS above:US$ 4/PC
10000PCS above:US$ 3.7/PC
Please check attached data sheet.
Look forward to your soon reply.Thanks!
Best Regards,Cindy

Also you might expect that if they sell millions of cells under the A123 name that A123 would start making public objections. We need some clarity on this subject.


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

I hate too good to be true.it turns out that at least the cells from OSN are second rate A123 cells. Cells that didn't pass the quality control but that someone still feel are good enough for other things. that's why they perform a little less.at least that's according to the lying piece of shit sales person. who also said that the price is 1/4 or 1/5 of normal A123 cells which is complete bullshit


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## Amberwolf (May 29, 2009)

And one thing that bugs me a lot about today's version of QC is that with most things, it doesn't mean improving the process before production ramp up. It means taking any old design and process and throwing it up there on the line, testing every lot (not necessarily every piece!) then selling off all the crap that fails under the same name but via shady side businesses, or even possibly under different names. Then taking the stuff that does work and selling it under the name they started with thru normal channels. 

Based on what I often enough see when repairing things, I'd guess that the process and product are never actually improved at all over the life of production, until a new process is devised for a "new" product, when they start the whole thing over again. 

When what should happen is that they come up with a process first that will work with small engineering runs, then test it in production, find the first small batch fails some, they find out why, then redesign the process to fix those problems and any theoretical problems they've thought of since then, and make a new small batch. Continually improving things with small amounts until they get it right, then ramping up to huge volumes and selling those as actual working products.

But nowadays everyone is out to make the quick buck, rather than having patience and investing in a process and product that actually work the first time and every time. 

Of course, some places with electronics components sell batches that are known to be defective and don't meet specs, etc, sometimes so far out of spec that they couldn't possibly be considered to be the same part at all or may not even work, to warehouses that then sell them as if they were the actual real product, and that crap gets put into all sorts of end-products, where it fails or doesn't last long or doesn't ever work quite right, etc, but it's cheaper because the parts cost a lot less (you'd think they'd question that cost), and then *they* sell *their* non-passing crap off (assuming they even have QC) and hope the customer won't notice, or won't take them up on their warranty, etc.


(Sure, A123 has done fine in their original factory, I guess, but wherever their new one(s) is setup, they aren't apparently trying to care as much. Or else they have the same problems in the original factory but simply destroyed the product instead of selling it, *or* they sold them along with original cells either as lower-spec'd batches (the honest way) or in the same batches (the dishonest way. Either way, them allowing places to use their name on crap that doesn't meet the expectations of the original product is going to give their name a bad rep, and make people question their ORIGINAL cells, too (like it has me, above)).
________
DIGITAL VOLCANO VAPORIZER CHEAP


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## drdhdmd (Aug 5, 2007)

The eBay seller I wrote to said his A123 cells were genuine but they were "used".


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## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

drdhdmd said:


> The eBay seller I wrote to said his A123 cells were genuine but they were "used".


Guys, just to clarify things:

There are sellers on ebay marketing ANR26650M1 cells in the white paper cover as used. These are cells were removed from DC9360 packs by squatting women alongside the Yangtze. 
The average date code is 2007, with some in 2006. Your mileage will vary wildly with these.

A123 has been quiet about their origin. I've some connections from purchases I've made, and no staff will elaborate on them.


The sellers on ebay marketing ANR26650M1A cells in the green shrink cover appear to be "new cells". I've inspected a small batch three weeks ago, and they passed my limited experience scrutiny. Welded seam, correct terminals/seal, 6mohms at 20 degrees C/50% SOC. Where the heck they acquired these I'll never know. And at 6$pc in hundreds quantity with shipping was a surprise.

These could be test fallouts, where they might scrap the entire lot based on a few sample failures. I don't know. The lot of 20 examined also has the same OCV at 3.310v +-.01v

Regards, Jeff


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## Orphee (Aug 24, 2009)

Hi everybody !

Just to tell you I bought (qty 240) A123 batteries with _olympics_ 
My cells are NEWS green A123 cells.
They are exactly with same value when I received them.
They all works great
I made a mistake measuring, putting 48V to ground and ... my fluke probe as gone like a tin-lead solder (but red) and aluminium case has been damaged. I talk about this because it's means it can deliver very much power.
I bought those cells for 1440$ US and after a few motorcycle tests they always seem to be identical (test with TpPacks BMS).

So I was afraid buying at low cost A123 cells but they are GOOD cells with very good price.

Sorry for my bad english (french)

Pictures of my electric motorcycle (48V 34Ah A123)
Left picture showing the finished bike (really ? not exactly ... I add a HID light but I need to change the front headlight to do so (because front headlight is already cutted for powerfull LEDs but LEDs are not approved for road use)
Other pictures: A123 battery box, one picture showing when I was connecting first packs, BMS controler and LED display (you can see also LED display on the first picture on the tank)


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

'good' is not really the precise information I think we are looking for.can you measure the short circuit current of a single cell with a clamp meter?nice motorcycle conversion btw. do you have a close up picture of how you soldered the cells together? that looks interesting


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## Jeff (Sep 25, 2008)

Headzup folks








There's a familiar troll lurking this thread, just waiting to piss on you.

You do not need to prove anything. Just tell us about your experience with the A123 cells you've bought on ebay and ignore him.


Regards, Jeff


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## Orphee (Aug 24, 2009)

Don't want to test maximum current. I was worried about false A123 or used A123 cells, they seem perfectly good. That's all and it will be too unpleasant to removed some of then to test this.
Actual maximum power during acceleration is about 4500W.
So I can say olympics has sent good new batteries for very good price.


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## CroDriver (Jan 8, 2009)

Orphee said:


> Don't want to test maximum current. I was worried about false A123 or used A123 cells, they seem perfectly good. That's all and it will be too unpleasant to removed some of then to test this.
> Actual maximum power during acceleration is about 4500W.
> So I can say olympics has sent good new batteries for very good price.


How many cells and in which configuration do you have?


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

Orphee, you don't quite appreciate the exactitude of the issue. 'good cell' is not a useful standard. and 240 A123 cells can deliver much more than 25.000watt. their rating is about 50kW. not 4500W


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## Orphee (Aug 24, 2009)

I understand cells (16*15 cells) can provide much more than I ask here but I don't need testing this, that's all ! so the 4500W I saw is the "cycle analyser" indication when acceleration running (1300W-1500W at full constant 50km/h speed)

Resume:
- All the cells I received are *green* and *new*
- First measure show they have about the same voltage (3V3)
- Tree charging show they charge during about the same time so it prove they have about the same capacity

For me it's a good price for good batteries.

For soldering, I used a quick Weller 100W and, before, put cells in fridge to decrease temp. Sorry, no picture for this because I was alone


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

And I appreciate your testimony, especially interesting to see the cells soldered together with busswire. I might try that myself instead of trying to make a battery welder.but if you only use 9% of the power of A123 cells then your testimony doesn't say much about the cells from olympic. the worst 26650 cells around would be plenty for your use. I trust you can see that.is the max power of your conversion really only 4500watt? is it the controller that limits that? and is the max speed only 50km/h? or are you afraid to drive it faster


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## Orphee (Aug 24, 2009)

My brushless hub motor is 1500W 48V (constant power)
4500W is maximum total power and I don't limit this with the programmable controller (Kelly 24-72V 7000W).
if I change the hub motor by a 7000W (constant) I would be able to do 130km/h but the problem is *I can't do this if I want to be road legal*.
Understand my bike is "scooter" classification. if I put more than 1500W motor I will be unlegal. I passed inspection to be approved (normaly it would be OK if the engineer stop asking me for others things every day). I had many real size motorcycle and I'm not afraid to go to 200 km/h


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## Dan Frederiksen (Jul 26, 2007)

ahh, I wondered if it was one of those mopeds made to look like a big motorcycle. I see.
Do you have a video of you driving it?


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## Orphee (Aug 24, 2009)

YSR is a mini race bike. You can see it here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrax_WJMdr4

or here 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBfdY8V0zNI

or at many places.

It's very stable. I will do a video in a few days. You can see other information here http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12483

My last projects www.motoelectrique.unblog.fr (you can see video but it's with another LiFePo4 48V 20Ah "ping" battery)


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