# From Classic to EV Conversion



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

Hello Everyone,
I've been looking around for alternative fuel sources Hydrogen Fuel Cells and biodiesel. But Electric seems the most fun to make. I'm new to the forums here and I had a question...What do you think about converting a 1966 Ford Galaxie into an EV? Its roughly 3,800 lbs way bigger than any homemade EV I've seen. 

Goals:
Range - 100 miles
Power - 200HP, 200lbs of Torque(min)
Weight - No more than 1000lbs over stock weight so roughly 4,800 lbs
Cost - no more than $2000 per year, for 4 years so $8000 total

Is it possible?
Is it practical?
Should I just go find a smaller starter car? 
Any and all feedback is welcome.


----------



## arklan (Dec 10, 2012)

http://www.evalbum.com/2898
i direct ur attention to the part where its 8520 pounds kerb weight so dont think that larger vehicles are impossible, just more expensive 
the reason why everyone makes small cars in to electric is because we r all cheap skates haha (myself included)

old cars like the galaxie are usually terrible for aerodynamics but are superior in every other way in that they are really basic, no power steering etc to have to muck around with.
as far as i know the galaxie had drums all round so u might be able to get away without a brake booster? dont quote me on that.

to get 100 miles (160km) youll probably need a quarter of the weight of the car in lead, the other way to go would be lithium which would be an 8th of the weight of the car. im gonna guess at 400wh a mile which would mean 40kwh battery pack for 100dod so 48kwh for 80dod.
assuming the 144v nominal that everyone likes to use so much thats 333ah pack? wow
my calculations make that 445kg or about 1000 pounds (so 2500 pounds for lead acid)
also assuming $135 for a 100ah 3.2v cell thats $18 225 for the lithium pack
lead acid is roughly 10x less but twice the weight plus extra coz u can discharge to 50% not 80% like the lithiums.
this is also assuming you wanna do 70mph everywhere
if you were living in indonesia where its impossible to go faster than 35mph because of the traffic youd need heaps less

electric stuff is rated at continuous and petrol is rated at peak, so for example your normal family sized car could cruise around quite comfortably on a 25hp system where as in a petrol family sized car 25hp wouldnt be enough to get out of the driveway

i actually dont know anything im just repeating what everyone on this forum says all the time


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

WinterT said:


> Hello Everyone,
> I've been looking around for alternative fuel sources Hydrogen Fuel Cells and biodiesel. But Electric seems the most fun to make. I'm new to the forums here and I had a question...What do you think about converting a 1966 Ford Galaxie into an EV? Its roughly 3,800 lbs way bigger than any homemade EV I've seen.
> 
> Goals:
> ...


Is it possible? Yes.

Is it practical? Not with that budget. Your desired range is the killer. You could do this with a 40 mile range with all new components for around $20000. A peak power of 200 HP at the wheels will need an input to the motor of around 300 HP into the motor. This is 224 kw. At 1000 amps you would need 224 volts. This means a sagged battery voltage of 224 volts so the unsagged voltage would need to be 263 volts (15% sag) and using 3.2 volts per cell nominal you need an 82 cell pack.  At 4800 lbs you would get around 480 wh/mile so to reach 100 miles you need a 48kw pack. 48000/253 = 189.7 ah. So you need 200 AH cells. Going to EVTV store they don't have 200 AH cells but they have 100AH cells in two flavors. You can pair 100 AH cells to make a 200AH equivalent. This means you need 164 cells. CALB SE cells would weigh 1156.2 lbs plus weight of straps and bolts and would cost $15580. CALB CA cells would weigh 1230 lbs plus the weight of the straps and bolts. They would cost $22796. For a little less range you could use 82 cells of 180 AH at a weight of 1017 lbs and a cost of $19598. Soliton 1 or Zilla 1K HV would be needed to handle the voltage and current. I think both of those are around $3000. For the mmotor a Kostov 11 or Netgain WarP 11HV would be needed to reach those power levels. Both far exceed your torque requirement at around 300 ft lbs. I think they are both between $2000 and $3000.

You still need a charger and $1000 to $2000 of what I call the fiddly bits (wire, contactors, fuses, disconnect switches, vacuum pump, power steering pump, heater, that sort of thing.) And don't forget that this is a 48 year old car and will require some luvin care before you put it on the road. At the very least a brake job and a thorough going over the suspension.

Everyone picks a small car because weight and range are killers. Light weight cars can be done a lot less expensively just because you have less of everything.

It can be done and for less than what I mention but the batteries are the killer and the only way to significantly reduce that requirement is to cut back on the range and required horsepower and torque. That opens up lots more options.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Yea, what dougingrahm said. I was figuring a 60 kWh pack. Only 80% of that would be usable, so 48 kWh is what you would need to haul 4,800 lbs for 100 miles. That battery alone should run about $25,000.


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I knew the batteries would be the money pit of the project, I didn't really think the distance would kill it so much as the overall weight. If I were to cut the numbers in half for example cost would drop a great deal but what kind of performance could one expect from a 4000lb, 50mile range, 50-70hp vehicle? I'm not trying to race it or anything but keep the outside appearance of a stock car. My power goal was to match the stock 289 engine performance specs but that may not be possible. If I revamp the numbers to a more doable level I'm thinking this. Since I'm new to EVs I am open to numbers that are more realistic in regards to my donor car and budget.

Range - 40-50 miles
Power - 50-70hp
Weight - 4800lbs(max)
0-60 in 12s or less(optional)
Budget - $8000-$10000


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

evmetro said:


> Yea, what dougingrahm said. I was figuring a 60 kWh pack. Only 80% of that would be usable, so 48 kWh is what you would need to haul 4,800 lbs for 100 miles. That battery alone should run about $25,000.


http://hybridautocenter.com/HAC4/in...new-11kw-h-battery-block-182v-60ah&Itemid=605

I came across these and if 48kWh are needed would just 4 of these suffice? Excluding the fact only 10-11kWh are usable. Half the number if I decide to half the range and lower the power. Still pretty bloody high cost though.


----------



## Ziggythewiz (May 16, 2010)

arklan said:


> to get 100 miles (160km) youll probably need a quarter of the weight of the car in lead


That's being beyond generous...more likely he'd need 3000 lbs of lead...but then you plug that weight back into the equation, and now you need more.

Range and lead don't mix.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

WinterT said:


> I came across these and if 48kWh are needed would just 4 of these suffice? Excluding the fact only 10-11kWh are usable. Half the number if I decide to half the range and lower the power. Still pretty bloody high cost though.


Leaf batteries. If you parallel by 2 it still doesn't look like you can really do 1000 amps but you could if you parallel by 3. It would make a workable EV. You would need to rework the modules to get the voltage up. You would probably want to organize them into 32 modules in series (269 volts fully charged with a nominal voltage of 237). And then parallel 2 more sets of modules so you use all 96. You can probably get your 1000 amps from this arrangement so 237*1000 = 237kw (317 HP) into the motor and this should get you something around 200 wheel HP. Depending on the final weight of the vehicle I would expect a drop dead range of around 89 miles with a safe range of around 70 miles.

Everyone thinks they need at least 100 miles (or 150km). They want a lot more than that until they find out what it costs. In my case I carefully kept track of my mileage for a 3 month period. I just had a notepad I jotted the date and starting mileage down when I got into the car in the morning. I found out that I drove an average of about 12 miles per day with the longest day when I didn't leave town being 29 miles. Because I drive the EV almost exclusively and I keep even better records now I know that I drive the EV more because it is so much more fun and it just doesn't seem to cost anything to drive. Pre-conversion the car would get about 6 miles per dollar of gasoline and now I get around 30 miles per dollar of electricity. And you just don't notice the few extra dollars on the electric bill. I suggest you keep close track of your actual driving habits to determine your actual range requirement. I built a pack about twice what I actually need on a daily basis. I could have saved about $3500 by buying a smaller pack that would still do what I need.

Buying lithium batteries is like buying your gas up front. If you size the pack for what you need the batteries will pay for themselves in about 3 years if gasoline were to remain at $3.50. If gas goes up it shortens this recovery time.


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

Honestly I wanted the 100 mile range for those "just incase" moments in life. I drive almost exactly 28miles a day(20 being hwy at 70mph on avg), adding 5-10 miles for a random unscheduled stop but no more than that. 50 miles in one day is almost impossible for me but you never know what might happen.

Taking that into consideration a 50 mile range isn't that bad, just as long as I have a backup gas car(which I will). After thinking about it I think I fell into the thought process of "this car has to get me everywhere this week, then I'll fill her up" like it was gas. I consciously know I would have to charge it every night but I don't think it really clicked until just now. Have to change my reference points on refueling the vehicle, then everything kinda shifts in terms of importance.

Keeping the range to at least 50 miles would be a safe buffer for me, and getting 200hp doesn't sound horribly difficult. I was looking at Warp 9 motors since they seem to be popular not 100% sure what the max power is on these though. All depends on the volts and amps, still looking for legit numbers on what's safe while still hitting the 200hp mark in my case.


----------



## slimdawg (Mar 7, 2012)

Big car is going to need a larger motor than warp 9 try warp 11 or larger :-D


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

Two WarP 9's are used in Assault & Battery at 1900 amps and 190 volts to each motor for an input power to the motors of 722kw (968 HP). John posted yesterday an update where he did the US Half Mile three times with a top speed of 160, 164, and 165 MPH. In John's motors I believe he has replaced the factory brush holders with the Helwig ones and is using special brush compound. This is probably excessive for use in a street car. A reasonably conservative street setup with a WarP 9 would be 170 volts and 800 amps. This is 136 kw (180 HP) into the motor and you would probably see around 70% efficiency giving 95 kw (128 HP) into the drive train and a little over 200 ft-lb. Even these conservative numbers are going to stress the motor if you do it for more than 20-30 seconds at a time. Of course if you hold those power levels for 30 seconds you are deep in felony territory.

Would a WarP 9 drive this Classic? Yes but I think it might be somewhat stressed. For a car this weight I would suggest an 11" motor.


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

This has quickly escalated from a simple "lets build an EV" to a "kids can't go to college" situation. But do they REALLY need to go? Nah...lol

If I stretch this project out over some years in all honesty it won't be that bad. And in that time maybe EV technology will get cheaper if not better for the same amount of money. In the meantime working with what's available now getting a range of 50 miles and keeping a base HP of 200 will require the following.

Motor: Warp 11 ($3500)- I'm leaning towards the transwarp model since it connects directly to the drive-train thus removing the transmission completely. My thoughts are this will be a bit more efficient in relaying power from the motor to the wheels. And if heavy modification isn't needed simplify the whole process. Or maybe keep the trans and get a plate made to mate the motor and trans. Still debating it. Reverse is also a concern as I've read an electric reverse on these motors is not preferred.

Batteries - Leaf Lithium Pack($8000): 3 packs of 24 modules which are 10-11kWh @144-201V. I'm not too sure what other battery options are available in a similar price range($.23 per wh) unless I get some packs custom made or make them myself from individual modules.

Controller: Leaning towards the Soliton 1($3000). It seems to fit the criteria of what I need(1000amps continuous, if liquid cooled) but its a LOT more than the Zilla Z1k($2000 but only 300 continuous amps) unless I didn't do enough shopping around comparing prices.

Other odds and ends: ($3000-???) - Charger, wires, modification for batteries compartment, suspension, and all that jazz.

After adding it all up like this I can see why people stick with the regular gas cars. You gotta pay to play.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Winter

With a big heavy car I would keep the transmission,
Power requirements
To cruise at 70mph you will need around 40Kw (guess) - OK with an 11 inch motor - too much for a 9 inch

Acceleration 
This is not continuous power an 11 inch can give as much as your tires can handle

Motors
$3500 for a Warp11 - I bought an 11 inch forklift motor for $100
Same thing except for brush advance and a nice paint job

Controllers
I'm using the OpenRevolt - $600
Saying that I borrowed a Soliton - beautiful piece of kit - built like a brick shithouse
wish I could afford one

I suspect that an 11 inch motor and the OpenRevolt will feel like your old 200hp V8
(even if it is only 100hp)

An 11 inch motor and a Soliton will blow your socks off - it will feel like a 500Hp V8


----------



## EVfun (Mar 14, 2010)

You should not use the Zilla 1k in a direct drive situation. The designer himself, Otmar, told me that and then looked at my beach buggy and said, well if it's that light (@ 1200lb.) you should be okay with good cooling.

OTOH, I would recommend a Zilla 2k because if you want to go direct drive you will want big torque. 2000 motor amps is big torque as you use the controller as a transmission, converting battery voltage at less current into more motor current at less voltage. I run my Zilla 1k at just 300 battery amps, but 900 motor amps for more kick off the line.


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

Duncan said:


> Motors
> $3500 for a Warp11 - I bought an 11 inch forklift motor for $100
> Same thing except for brush advance and a nice paint job


Hell if I could find a forklift motor comparable to a Warp 11 for that price I'd buy it right now. Where could I even find those for sale? 



Duncan said:


> Controllers
> I'm using the OpenRevolt - $600


Is there a particular place I can look this up or possibly order a kit? I can't seem to find anything other than other peoples projects using the OpenRevolt.

In regards to keeping the transmission, since I've got a 4 speed auto I'd have to lock it to a particular gear I'm thinking(4th maybe?). Wouldn't that affect the acceleration quite a bit?


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

EVfun said:


> You should not use the Zilla 1k in a direct drive situation. The designer himself, Otmar, told me that and then looked at my beach buggy and said, well if it's that light (@ 1200lb.) you should be okay with good cooling.
> 
> OTOH, I would recommend a Zilla 2k because if you want to go direct drive you will want big torque. 2000 motor amps is big torque as you use the controller as a transmission, converting battery voltage at less current into more motor current at less voltage. I run my Zilla 1k at just 300 battery amps, but 900 motor amps for more kick off the line.


I thought the Zilla 2k was continuous at 600amps and peaked at 2000amps. I'm working under the impression I need 1000 continuous. Zilla was my first pick until I saw the continuous rating. Direct drive vs just leaving the trans is what I'm still debating.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Before locking into a plan, I would spend a few days and read as many build threads on this site as you can, and surf evalbum.com and the "garage" section of this site. You may find that your plan will change quite a bit, and you will learn what you need to know. I would not recommend buying anything until you have done some really heavy reading on this site and have a parts list posted here for this community to scrutinize and pick apart.


----------



## Duncan (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi Winter
_I'm working under the impression I need 1000 continuous._
That will cook your motor 
an 11 inch motor can take 1000amps for a couple of minutes max - it will be continuously rated for about 200 amps

OpenRevolt
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthre...44v-motor-controller-6404-527.html#post274270

You will need a gearbox - you can make an auto work - need to research it


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

evmetro said:


> Before locking into a plan, I would spend a few days and read as many build threads on this site as you can, and surf evalbum.com and the "garage" section of this site. You may find that your plan will change quite a bit, and you will learn what you need to know. I would not recommend buying anything until you have done some really heavy reading on this site and have a parts list posted here for this community to scrutinize and pick apart.


I completely agree, In the span of a few hours it's changed drastically lol.



Duncan said:


> Hi Winter
> _I'm working under the impression I need 1000 continuous._
> That will cook your motor
> an 11 inch motor can take 1000amps for a couple of minutes max - it will be continuously rated for about 200 amps
> ...


That's where I got a bit confused. I was thinking of the 200hp goal as continuous when in reality I won't be gunning it at all times. Less than half the peak HP would be needed in my case on a regular basis. Its around 25HP to cruise at 60-70 I think...So much learnin to be had it seems. Oh and thanks for the link.


----------



## evmetro (Apr 9, 2012)

Once you get your reading in it will become more clear what components to get, but wait, there's more! Once you come up with your parts list, you will want to draw a wiring diagram of your entire conversion. You will learn even more once you draw your diagram. Several members have submitted them here recently to be reviewed and picked over. I would get all this done before buying anything.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

WinterT said:


> I thought the Zilla 2k was continuous at 600amps and peaked at 2000amps. I'm working under the impression I need 1000 continuous. Zilla was my first pick until I saw the continuous rating. Direct drive vs just leaving the trans is what I'm still debating.


You need huge torque (current) for acceleration only. Driving down the highway you are at a steady state much lower than when taking off. Example, in my car it takes about 18 kw to drive at 60mph. If your battery voltage is 180 then the battery current will be 100. Your car will take more than 18 kw to hold 60 mph because it will have a little worse rolling resistance and quite a lot worse air drag.

In a light weight sports car you need 2000 amps to go direct drive. In a heavy classic car you will need 2 motors and 2000 amps to each motor to go direct drive. Keep the transmission is my recommendation. Does it have a 4 speed manual?


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

dougingraham said:


> You need huge torque (current) for acceleration only. Driving down the highway you are at a steady state much lower than when taking off. Example, in my car it takes about 18 kw to drive at 60mph. If your battery voltage is 180 then the battery current will be 100. Your car will take more than 18 kw to hold 60 mph because it will have a little worse rolling resistance and quite a lot worse air drag.
> 
> In a light weight sports car you need 2000 amps to go direct drive. In a heavy classic car you will need 2 motors and 2000 amps to each motor to go direct drive. Keep the transmission is my recommendation. Does it have a 4 speed manual?


Direct drive seems to be good for the lighter vehicles not so much for my particular car though. My Galaxie is a 4 speed auto.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

WinterT said:


> This has quickly escalated from a simple "lets build an EV" to a "kids can't go to college" situation. But do they REALLY need to go? Nah...lol


If gasoline goes up to $6 per gallon and you have an EV now you have made a wise choice in investing in the EV. Typical person drives around 10000 miles per year. At 30 mpg this would be 333 gallons. At $3.50 (today) this is $1165. At $6 per gallon this is just under $2000. A couple of weeks ago I looked at the price of gas in England and found it to be over $8 per gallon. At that price it would be $2700 per year. The cost of the electricity is around $0.10 per kwh. At your estimated 480 wh/mile that 10000 miles would use 4800 kwh which would cost you $480 per year. Gas prices will go up here and it could be sudden (again). My old car does not get 30 mpg so my personal numbers look lots better than this. If you change to the 10mpg your classic probably gets then those yearly gasoline numbers go to $3500, $6000, and for the England price $8000 per year making the savings HUGE. At $6 per gallon you pay for the batteries in the first year. 




WinterT said:


> Motor: Warp 11 ($3500)-
> 
> Batteries - Leaf Lithium Pack($8000):


Warp 11 or an equivalent Fork Lift Motor modified will work.

The Leaf battery packs will need to be paralled by 3 to handle the currents you need. So three of them will work out although I would like to see higher voltage into the controller. I don't have direct experience with the Open Revolt controller but I don't think it is appropriate for your conversion project. My understanding is that they have a 1000 amp version coming out but the voltage limit is still 144 and for your purposes you want one that can do the 172 motor volts and accept a higher battery voltage. The 24 cells of the Leaf Pack in series will have a voltage of 202. The motor is rated for up to 170 volts and with the newer Helwig brushes they talk about 190 volts. The just off the charger voltage of those 24 cell modules is 202 with a nominal voltage of 178 and an empty voltage of 144. You would have to reorganize to a lower voltage to use the Open Revolt. 18 cells by 4 paralleled would give a peak voltage of 151, a nominal voltage of 133 and an empty voltage of 108. That is probably in the range of that controller. The downside of lower voltage is a narrowing of the torque band. This means you have to shift earlier and will limit your top speed.



WinterT said:


> After adding it all up like this I can see why people stick with the regular gas cars. You gotta pay to play.


Converting is less expensive than buying a new car and in the end you get a car you really want and the capability to fix it yourself. Make those new car payments to yourself and when you have enough start converting it.


----------



## dougingraham (Jul 26, 2011)

WinterT said:


> Direct drive seems to be good for the lighter vehicles not so much for my particular car though. My Galaxie is a 4 speed auto.


Automatics are their own set of problems. People have done conversions using them but it is more difficult. You will probably need a controller that can idle the motor and I think the Soliton line are the only ones with that capability at present.


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

If I can find a forklift motor with similar specs for cheap I'd love to go that route not too sure where to even begin looking for that though. I was also looking at Kostov motors, they seem bit cheaper, not too sure how they stand up when compared to Warp 11s.

Leaf batteries seem to be a pretty cost effective choice, be it that I'm still in the planning phase I'm open to any alternatives that would fit for this project in a close price range.


----------



## WinterT (May 22, 2014)

I came across a 1PV5135-4WS28 for sale and was wondering how that would compare to the Warp 11 for this build? I found a doc online that shows it peaking at 200kW at 750V and 450Nm at 300Amps. HP wise it's close and torque is definitely more than I was asking for. My other concern was somewhere in the recesses of this forum I read this particular motor was set for a lower voltage to peak(300 something I think) since its from a Azure auction, not really sure what that means to be honest other than lower V means high Amps are needed for the motor to peak.

Doc showing specs
http://www.hec-drives.com/Specs%20Siemens%201PV51XX.pdf


----------

